Re: What would you deal Garza for?

[CUBZ99]

If they were to trade Dempster & Garza (which I am perfectly fine with BTW.....actually, I'd prefer it) they would certainly be ready to make a signing or two or trade in the offseason for a ML starter.

 

 

Garza for a huge contract here, no thanks. I like him but just think we're probably better off moving in another direction right now.

 

That is a valid point. Will there be better free agent options which will be more cost effective in the off season? The Cubs will have a ton of money to spend in free agency this off season.

[jersey cubs fan]

Anyway, it looks like we're talking about different points. I don't want to write off the possibility that Garza's 2011 was an outlier, but rather point out that if you believe in his 2011 then he's a standard deviation above the Anibal Sanchezes and Edwin Jacksons of the world.

 

If you would be angry if he's traded then you must be writing off the possibility that 2011 was the outlier.

[Guest]

My belief is that 2011 was not an outlier, that does not mean I think it's an absolute certainty.

[sneakypower]

Would you take the over or under on 3 wins for him this year? I'd be careful about trending him for the season after he's had 2 of his worst starts of the year.

he needs a 3.5 win pace to do that. what's that, 3.40 FIP? with a 3.58 xFIP, 3.50 siera, i'll take the slight under on 3 wins

 

Anyway, it looks like we're talking about different points. I don't want to write off the possibility that Garza's 2011 was an outlier, but rather point out that if you believe in his 2011 then he's a standard deviation above the Anibal Sanchezes and Edwin Jacksons of the world.

no, i don't believe Garza is a 2.95 FIP pitcher, but he and Anibal have still been identical in value the last two seasons, with Jackson trailing by a few runs

[davell]

If we trade Garza, the hope is we get a guy that conceivably replaces him much cheaper AND then spend the money we lose off his salary on another TOR pitcher as well. TT said it correctly though, it'd have to include a guy already in the majors or at least very close, for us trading him to truly make sense.

 

If the Yanks offered Hughes/Banuelos/Sanchez? Personally, I'm not a fan, but I can see where others could see this as being solid. If the Red Sox offered Barnes/Lavarnway/Doubront? I like Barnes a ton, enough to probably consider this, even though I don't think Doubront is more than a 4/5 longterm. Again, it comes down to what the Blue Jays would offer for me: If you could pry one of Hutchison or Drabek, along with one of Gose or Marisnick, and one of Syndergaard/Nicolino/Sanchez/Norris, then I think that's definitely a deal you do.

 

The key here though, with both Dempster AND Garza is getting them on the market quickly(moreso in Demp's case) before McCarthy, possibly Greinke and Marcum, Liriano, Wandy, or possibly even Hamels shows up available.

 

The more I've thought about Dempster, the more I want to maximize him in getting the single best prospect I can for him, not a package. A guy on PSD brought it up and it makes sense to me. The Mets got Wheeler for 3 months of Beltran. If we can actually swing a singular top 100 guy in a deal for Demp, that's what I'd do. Take the 4-5 guy package for Garza, which is likely to include at least 1, possibly 2, top 100ish guys, and more anyway.

[Little Slide Rooter]

For the Yankees I'd probably want both B and B. Not sure what else they have.

 

With the Red Sox, again, aside from Middlebrooks who we will not be getting, I don't know what they have to offer. I'd definitely like to work Daniel Bard into the deal, but not as the top piece.

 

There's no urgency to move Garza. If we wait until the end of July, I could see virtually every contender in the mix. Even if Hamels and/or Greinke hit the block, they're FAs after this season as opposed to Garza who has another year, so he really should be the most attractive SP on the block, unless Seattle decides to shop Felix.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Little Slide Rooter

[Post Count Padder]

For the Yankees I'd probably want both B and B. Not sure what else they have.

 

With the Red Sox, again, aside from Middlebrooks who we will not be getting, I'd definitely like to work Daniel Bard into the deal, but not as the top piece.

 

There's no urgency to move Garza. If we wait until the end of July, I could see virtually every contender in the mix. Even if Hamels and/or Greinke hit the block, they're FAs after this season as opposed to Garza who has another year, so he really should be the most attractive SP on the block, unless Seattle decides to shop Felix.

B and B are not doing well this year and the Yanks likely won't part with both. They definitely won't part with Mason Williams either.

 

The Sox could offer more. They have a decent Top 10, but I don't know who they'd part with.

[abuck1220]

The Sox could offer more. They have a decent Top 10, but I don't know who they'd part with.

 

interesting point.

[Exile on Waveland]

If they were to trade Dempster & Garza (which I am perfectly fine with BTW.....actually, I'd prefer it) they would certainly be ready to make a signing or two or trade in the offseason for a ML starter.

 

 

Garza for a huge contract here, no thanks. I like him but just think we're probably better off moving in another direction right now.

 

1) Hamels

 

If Garza and Dempster are traded, why would the Cubs sign Hamels to a huge contract? Signing free agents is bad when you're not immediately-this-second ready to compete, remember. And the Garza-less, Dempster-less Cubs would even be further away from contending than last/this year's team.

[bukie]

I wasn't really happy with the list I got yesterday of people that started out as bad as Roy Halladay, since it was pretty era-specific. I changed the parameters to an ERA+ of 80 or lower for age 23-24 seasons with at least 25 starts, and that got 62 results (including Minor). Then I sorted the list by the player's career WAR. Here are the results:

 

                                                                             
Rk               Player  WAR From   To   Age   G  GS  CG SHO     IP  ERA ERA+
1          Roy Halladay 62.9 1998 2012 21-35 389 363  66  20 2603.1 3.25  137
2             Ed Brandt 26.2 1928 1938 23-33 378 279 150  18 2268.1 3.86  100
3             Al Benton 21.7 1934 1952 23-41 455 167  58  10 1688.1 3.66  115
4        Mike McCormick 14.8 1956 1971 17-32 484 333  91  23 2380.1 3.73   96
5        LaTroy Hawkins 14.4 1995 2012 22-39 833  98   2   0 1270.0 4.46  104
6         Arthur Rhodes 13.7 1991 2011 21-41 900  61   5   3 1187.2 4.08  109
7    Jason Isringhausen 11.6 1995 2012 22-39 695  52   3   1  982.2 3.59  117
8          Melido Perez  9.7 1987 1995 21-29 243 201  20   5 1354.2 4.17   97
9            Bob Rhoads  9.6 1902 1909 22-29 218 185 154  21 1691.2 2.61  100
10         Pete Falcone  8.7 1975 1984 21-30 325 217  25   7 1435.1 4.07   91
11         Dan Spillner  7.8 1974 1985 22-33 556 123  19   3 1492.2 4.21   92
12           Mark Davis  6.1 1980 1997 19-36 624  85   4   2 1145.0 4.17   89
13         Andy Hassler  5.6 1971 1985 19-33 387 112  26   5 1123.1 3.83   97
14         Oliver Perez  5.3 2002 2010 20-28 206 195   3   2 1111.2 4.63   90
15        Pete Schourek  4.7 1991 2001 22-32 288 176   3   1 1149.0 4.59   92
16           Pete Smith  4.4 1987 1998 21-32 231 163  12   4 1025.2 4.55   86
17          Colby Lewis  4.0 2002 2012 22-32 148 110   4   1  698.2 4.80   95
18          Jack Fisher  3.2 1959 1969 20-30 400 265  62   9 1975.2 4.06   88
19        Jeff Robinson  2.3 1984 1992 23-31 454  62   2   1  901.1 3.79   96
20          Chris Haney  2.1 1991 2002 22-33 196 125   8   4  824.2 5.07   91
21           Hal Wiltse  1.9 1926 1931 22-27 102  65  23   2  500.1 4.87   85
22        Marty Bystrom  1.6 1980 1985 21-26  84  79   4   2  435.0 4.26   87
23          Paul Wilson  1.6 1996 2005 23-32 170 153   3   0  941.2 4.86   88
24         Brian Matusz  1.1 2009 2012 22-25  63  63   0   0  333.1 5.32   79
25           Roy Sherid  0.3 1929 1931 22-24  87  44  20   0  413.0 4.71   87
Rk               Player  WAR From   To   Age   G  GS  CG SHO     IP  ERA ERA+
26        Steve Dunning  0.3 1970 1977 21-28 136  84   7   1  613.2 4.56   82
27          Don Johnson  0.3 1947 1958 20-31 198  70  17   5  631.0 4.78   84
28          Phil Ortega  0.1 1960 1969 20-29 204 141  20   9  951.2 4.43   75
29         Bill Parsons  0.1 1971 1974 22-25  93  82  22   6  520.1 3.89   85
30         Allen Watson  0.1 1993 2000 22-29 206 137   3   0  892.0 5.03   86
31        Doug Waechter  0.0 2003 2009 22-28 113  54   1   1  384.1 5.34   83
32        Luke Prokopec  0.0 2000 2002 22-24  56  37   0   0  231.0 5.30   80
33       Biff Schlitzer -0.2 1908 1914 23-29  44  29  16   2  217.1 3.60   71
34             Ed Walsh -0.2 1928 1932 23-27  79  38  11   0  331.0 5.57   78
35        Gerry Janeski -0.4 1970 1972 24-26  62  46   4   1  280.0 4.72   78
36       Frank Bertaina -0.5 1964 1970 20-26  99  66   6   5  413.0 3.84   85
37       Happy Townsend -0.5 1901 1906 22-27 153 125 107   5 1137.2 3.59   83
38          Kyle Drabek -0.6 2010 2012 22-24  32  28   0   0  157.2 5.37   80
39        Wayne Simpson -0.7 1970 1977 21-28 122 107  13   2  636.0 4.37   86
40       Beany Jacobson -0.9 1904 1907 23-26  88  70  53   1  612.1 3.19   83
41         Chris George -1.0 2001 2004 21-24  47  44   1   0  237.1 6.48   75
42         Santo Alcala -1.3 1976 1977 23-24  68  33   3   1  249.1 4.76   77
43          Elmer Myers -1.5 1915 1922 21-28 185 127  78   8 1102.0 4.06   80
44           Mike Minor -1.6 2010 2012 22-24  34  33   0   0  181.1 5.46   71
45       Doug Konieczny -1.7 1973 1977 21-25  44  38   4   1  221.0 4.93   70
46      Todd Van Poppel -1.7 1991 2004 19-32 359  98   2   1  907.0 5.58   80
47        Mike Campbell -1.8 1987 1996 23-32  51  41   3   0  233.1 5.86   74
48           Ken Cloude -1.9 1997 1999 22-24  71  45   0   0  278.2 6.56   71
49       John DAcquisto -1.9 1973 1982 21-30 266  92   7   2  779.2 4.56   80
50        Bill Champion -2.0 1969 1976 21-28 202 102  13   3  804.1 4.69   78
Rk               Player  WAR From   To   Age   G  GS  CG SHO     IP  ERA ERA+
51         Jeff Ballard -2.1 1987 1994 23-30 197 118  10   2  773.1 4.71   84
52             Jay Hook -2.1 1957 1964 20-27 160 112  30   2  752.2 5.23   74
53         Lefty Hoerst -2.7 1940 1947 22-29  98  41   8   0  348.0 5.17   67
54         Aaron Myette -2.8 1999 2004 21-26  47  30   0   0  154.1 8.16   58
55        Andrew Miller -3.1 2006 2012 21-27 109  66   0   0  371.0 5.68   77
56        Garrett Olson -3.1 2007 2011 23-27 103  44   0   0  287.1 6.14   71
57            Lou Knerr -3.2 1945 1947 23-25  63  39  11   0  287.1 5.04   69
58          Gene Wright -3.3 1901 1904 22-25  46  40  31   2  323.2 4.50   70
59        Ruben Quevedo -3.5 2000 2003 21-24  66  58   2   1  326.1 6.15   70
60          Jo-Jo Reyes -4.0 2007 2011 22-26  70  62   1   0  334.2 6.05   70
61        Jack Hamilton -4.4 1962 1969 23-30 218  65   8   2  611.2 4.53   78
62          Mike Kekich -5.4 1965 1977 20-32 235 112   8   1  860.2 4.59   73

 

So, the list of players who started out as bad as Minor (and Kyle Drabek) and went on to be a successful Major League starter is...1 in 62.

[Guest]

First thing I saw was Ruben Quevedo

[jersey cubs fan]

First thing I saw was Ruben Quevedo

 

cause he's so fat you can't see the rest?

[Guest]

I wasn't really happy with the list I got yesterday of people that started out as bad as Roy Halladay, since it was pretty era-specific. I changed the parameters to an ERA+ of 80 or lower for age 23-24 seasons with at least 25 starts, and that got 62 results (including Minor). Then I sorted the list by the player's career WAR. Here are the results:

 

                                                                             
Rk               Player  WAR From   To   Age   G  GS  CG SHO     IP  ERA ERA+
1          Roy Halladay 62.9 1998 2012 21-35 389 363  66  20 2603.1 3.25  137
2             Ed Brandt 26.2 1928 1938 23-33 378 279 150  18 2268.1 3.86  100
3             Al Benton 21.7 1934 1952 23-41 455 167  58  10 1688.1 3.66  115
4        Mike McCormick 14.8 1956 1971 17-32 484 333  91  23 2380.1 3.73   96
5        LaTroy Hawkins 14.4 1995 2012 22-39 833  98   2   0 1270.0 4.46  104
6         Arthur Rhodes 13.7 1991 2011 21-41 900  61   5   3 1187.2 4.08  109
7    Jason Isringhausen 11.6 1995 2012 22-39 695  52   3   1  982.2 3.59  117
8          Melido Perez  9.7 1987 1995 21-29 243 201  20   5 1354.2 4.17   97
9            Bob Rhoads  9.6 1902 1909 22-29 218 185 154  21 1691.2 2.61  100
10         Pete Falcone  8.7 1975 1984 21-30 325 217  25   7 1435.1 4.07   91
11         Dan Spillner  7.8 1974 1985 22-33 556 123  19   3 1492.2 4.21   92
12           Mark Davis  6.1 1980 1997 19-36 624  85   4   2 1145.0 4.17   89
13         Andy Hassler  5.6 1971 1985 19-33 387 112  26   5 1123.1 3.83   97
14         Oliver Perez  5.3 2002 2010 20-28 206 195   3   2 1111.2 4.63   90
15        Pete Schourek  4.7 1991 2001 22-32 288 176   3   1 1149.0 4.59   92
16           Pete Smith  4.4 1987 1998 21-32 231 163  12   4 1025.2 4.55   86
17          Colby Lewis  4.0 2002 2012 22-32 148 110   4   1  698.2 4.80   95
18          Jack Fisher  3.2 1959 1969 20-30 400 265  62   9 1975.2 4.06   88
19        Jeff Robinson  2.3 1984 1992 23-31 454  62   2   1  901.1 3.79   96
20          Chris Haney  2.1 1991 2002 22-33 196 125   8   4  824.2 5.07   91
21           Hal Wiltse  1.9 1926 1931 22-27 102  65  23   2  500.1 4.87   85
22        Marty Bystrom  1.6 1980 1985 21-26  84  79   4   2  435.0 4.26   87
23          Paul Wilson  1.6 1996 2005 23-32 170 153   3   0  941.2 4.86   88
24         Brian Matusz  1.1 2009 2012 22-25  63  63   0   0  333.1 5.32   79
25           Roy Sherid  0.3 1929 1931 22-24  87  44  20   0  413.0 4.71   87
Rk               Player  WAR From   To   Age   G  GS  CG SHO     IP  ERA ERA+
26        Steve Dunning  0.3 1970 1977 21-28 136  84   7   1  613.2 4.56   82
27          Don Johnson  0.3 1947 1958 20-31 198  70  17   5  631.0 4.78   84
28          Phil Ortega  0.1 1960 1969 20-29 204 141  20   9  951.2 4.43   75
29         Bill Parsons  0.1 1971 1974 22-25  93  82  22   6  520.1 3.89   85
30         Allen Watson  0.1 1993 2000 22-29 206 137   3   0  892.0 5.03   86
31        Doug Waechter  0.0 2003 2009 22-28 113  54   1   1  384.1 5.34   83
32        Luke Prokopec  0.0 2000 2002 22-24  56  37   0   0  231.0 5.30   80
33       Biff Schlitzer -0.2 1908 1914 23-29  44  29  16   2  217.1 3.60   71
34             Ed Walsh -0.2 1928 1932 23-27  79  38  11   0  331.0 5.57   78
35        Gerry Janeski -0.4 1970 1972 24-26  62  46   4   1  280.0 4.72   78
36       Frank Bertaina -0.5 1964 1970 20-26  99  66   6   5  413.0 3.84   85
37       Happy Townsend -0.5 1901 1906 22-27 153 125 107   5 1137.2 3.59   83
38          Kyle Drabek -0.6 2010 2012 22-24  32  28   0   0  157.2 5.37   80
39        Wayne Simpson -0.7 1970 1977 21-28 122 107  13   2  636.0 4.37   86
40       Beany Jacobson -0.9 1904 1907 23-26  88  70  53   1  612.1 3.19   83
41         Chris George -1.0 2001 2004 21-24  47  44   1   0  237.1 6.48   75
42         Santo Alcala -1.3 1976 1977 23-24  68  33   3   1  249.1 4.76   77
43          Elmer Myers -1.5 1915 1922 21-28 185 127  78   8 1102.0 4.06   80
44           Mike Minor -1.6 2010 2012 22-24  34  33   0   0  181.1 5.46   71
45       Doug Konieczny -1.7 1973 1977 21-25  44  38   4   1  221.0 4.93   70
46      Todd Van Poppel -1.7 1991 2004 19-32 359  98   2   1  907.0 5.58   80
47        Mike Campbell -1.8 1987 1996 23-32  51  41   3   0  233.1 5.86   74
48           Ken Cloude -1.9 1997 1999 22-24  71  45   0   0  278.2 6.56   71
49       John DAcquisto -1.9 1973 1982 21-30 266  92   7   2  779.2 4.56   80
50        Bill Champion -2.0 1969 1976 21-28 202 102  13   3  804.1 4.69   78
Rk               Player  WAR From   To   Age   G  GS  CG SHO     IP  ERA ERA+
51         Jeff Ballard -2.1 1987 1994 23-30 197 118  10   2  773.1 4.71   84
52             Jay Hook -2.1 1957 1964 20-27 160 112  30   2  752.2 5.23   74
53         Lefty Hoerst -2.7 1940 1947 22-29  98  41   8   0  348.0 5.17   67
54         Aaron Myette -2.8 1999 2004 21-26  47  30   0   0  154.1 8.16   58
55        Andrew Miller -3.1 2006 2012 21-27 109  66   0   0  371.0 5.68   77
56        Garrett Olson -3.1 2007 2011 23-27 103  44   0   0  287.1 6.14   71
57            Lou Knerr -3.2 1945 1947 23-25  63  39  11   0  287.1 5.04   69
58          Gene Wright -3.3 1901 1904 22-25  46  40  31   2  323.2 4.50   70
59        Ruben Quevedo -3.5 2000 2003 21-24  66  58   2   1  326.1 6.15   70
60          Jo-Jo Reyes -4.0 2007 2011 22-26  70  62   1   0  334.2 6.05   70
61        Jack Hamilton -4.4 1962 1969 23-30 218  65   8   2  611.2 4.53   78
62          Mike Kekich -5.4 1965 1977 20-32 235 112   8   1  860.2 4.59   73

 

So, the list of players who started out as bad as Minor (and Kyle Drabek) and went on to be a successful Major League starter is...1 in 62.

(and Matusz)

[SouthSideRyan]

So, the list of players who started out as bad as Minor (and Kyle Drabek) and went on to be a successful Major League starter is...1 in 62.

(and Matusz)

 

???

[bukie]

So, the list of players who started out as bad as Minor (and Kyle Drabek) and went on to be a successful Major League starter is...1 in 62.

(and Matusz)

 

???

Matudz is a third pitcher that got off to such a start and made the list, and is often referenced as a trade reclamation project.

[SouthSideRyan]

So, the list of players who started out as bad as Minor (and Kyle Drabek) and went on to be a successful Major League starter is...1 in 62.

(and Matusz)

 

???

Matudz is a third pitcher that got off to such a start and made the list, and is often referenced as a trade reclamation project.

 

Ah, thought he was calling him a successful major leaguer

[Clem Fandango]

Glad to see such a riveting response to my point which appears to be intentionally misinterpreted for laughs. Well done.

[bukie]

Glad to see such a riveting response to my point which appears to be intentionally misinterpreted for laughs. Well done.

Your point: It's too early to give up on Minor, because Roy Halladay had similar struggles early in his career.

 

Response: Well, judging from the other 61 examples of highly regarded players struggling early in their career, odds aren't good for Minor.

 

But sure, misinterpreting, laughs, whatever makes you feel better about it.

[toonsterwu]

For the Yankees I'd probably want both B and B. Not sure what else they have.

 

With the Red Sox, again, aside from Middlebrooks who we will not be getting, I'd definitely like to work Daniel Bard into the deal, but not as the top piece.

 

There's no urgency to move Garza. If we wait until the end of July, I could see virtually every contender in the mix. Even if Hamels and/or Greinke hit the block, they're FAs after this season as opposed to Garza who has another year, so he really should be the most attractive SP on the block, unless Seattle decides to shop Felix.

B and B are not doing well this year and the Yanks likely won't part with both. They definitely won't part with Mason Williams either.

 

The Sox could offer more. They have a decent Top 10, but I don't know who they'd part with.

 

My issue with the Sox system is that, assuming Middlebrooks is entrenched at 3rd, there's only one guy I'm really intrigued with, and that's Boegaerts. And ... considering his status in the organization, I have my doubts they move him.

 

There's a lot of nice guys after that. I'm still not sold that Matt Barnes is a stud. Let's give it another month before putting him up there. I may be able to catch him on the Carolina circuit, so maybe that will change my mind. To me, he's still a mid-rotation projection with a possible "2" ceiling, and that's if a ton of things go right for him, IMO.

 

After that? Lavarnaway doesn't really fit for us. Iglesias doesn't excite me and isn't really needed (might as well just slide Barney over and aim for better assets in a trade than deal for Iglesias as a key part of a deal). Brentz ... never been huge on him (and let's see if he can ... uh ... keep up .... that .508 BABIP in May). Cecchini would be a nice 3rd piece to a deal. I'm not sure I would love him as a 2nd piece to a deal. Jacobs and Bradley Jr. are intriguing assets. Not that enthused with Jacobs. I guess Bradley Jr. could be a nice 2nd piece to a deal, but we do have some intriguing CF options in house. At this stage, Kalish seems more of a nice 2nd/3rd piece.

 

A lot of nice assets, not a lot of pitching. I guess I wouldn't complain if the right deal came about (something like Boegaerts/Barnes and one), but not a lot that I really would love in a Garza trade. If the Yankees would part with Sanchez/Baneulos, I'm not so sure the Boegaerts/Barnes combination if better than that.

 

That said, we're speculating a lot on things, as is the purpose of a message board, but we really have to wait and see how Garza is pitching then, and wait and see on which teams aggressively pursue.

[Clem Fandango]

Glad to see such a riveting response to my point which appears to be intentionally misinterpreted for laughs. Well done.

Your point: It's too early to give up on Minor, because Roy Halladay had similar struggles early in his career.

 

Response: Well, judging from the other 61 examples of highly regarded players struggling early in their career, odds aren't good for Minor.

 

But sure, misinterpreting, laughs, whatever makes you feel better about it.

 

My point: You don't give up on a recent top prospect after 180 innings and you don't ignore trading a half season rental of a 35 year old pitcher who won't be on the team next year for him. Especially when that player will still be under team control for several years

 

Roy Halladay was merely an example, not the reason. If you all sincerely think the latter, well then... okay.

[bukie]

Glad to see such a riveting response to my point which appears to be intentionally misinterpreted for laughs. Well done.

Your point: It's too early to give up on Minor, because Roy Halladay had similar struggles early in his career.

 

Response: Well, judging from the other 61 examples of highly regarded players struggling early in their career, odds aren't good for Minor.

 

But sure, misinterpreting, laughs, whatever makes you feel better about it.

 

My point: You don't give up on a recent top prospect after 180 innings and you don't ignore trading a half season rental of a 35 year old pitcher who won't be on the team next year for him. Especially when that player will still be under team control for several years

 

Roy Halladay was merely an example, not the reason. If you all sincerely think the latter, well then... okay.

The last three pages of this thread were discussing 61 reasons you do kind of give up on a recent top prospect after 25 miserable starts. You pointing out Roy Halladay is just using the exception to try to prove your rule.

[Clem Fandango]

Glad to see such a riveting response to my point which appears to be intentionally misinterpreted for laughs. Well done.

Your point: It's too early to give up on Minor, because Roy Halladay had similar struggles early in his career.

 

Response: Well, judging from the other 61 examples of highly regarded players struggling early in their career, odds aren't good for Minor.

 

But sure, misinterpreting, laughs, whatever makes you feel better about it.

 

My point: You don't give up on a recent top prospect after 180 innings and you don't ignore trading a half season rental of a 35 year old pitcher who won't be on the team next year for him. Especially when that player will still be under team control for several years

 

Roy Halladay was merely an example, not the reason. If you all sincerely think the latter, well then... okay.

The last three pages of this thread were discussing 61 reasons you do kind of give up on a recent top prospect after 25 miserable starts. You pointing out Roy Halladay is just using the exception to try to prove your rule.

 

But at this point you're trying to get as much value out of Dempster as you possibly can. He's expensive, even for a half year, so you'd have to eat a lot of contract. Would you prefer a guy with some MLB struggles in his first season's worth of starts who has a good track record and top prospect pedigree from one year ago who you could slot into your rotation if needed or, probably more appropriately for Minor, insert as a long reliever to help work out his kinks and bolster the bullpen?

 

The underlying and driving theme in all this bickering is "How much is Dempster worth?" I happen to think getting Mike Minor (and a servicable cheap reliever in Medlen) in return, as per the suggested trade by Bowden (which was stupid to begin with) was a damn good deal and it would be foolish not to pull the trigger on that deal.

 

To NOT want to trade 4 months of Ryan Dempster for 3 years of Kris Medlen and 5 years of Mike Minor? Sorry, I think that's a really dumb move, and that's kind of the whole point I was trying to make in general.

[jersey cubs fan]

But at this point you're trying to get as much value out of Dempster as you possibly can. He's expensive, even for a half year, so you'd have to eat a lot of contract. Would you prefer a guy with some MLB struggles in his first season's worth of starts who has a good track record and top prospect pedigree from one year ago who you could slot into your rotation if needed or, probably more appropriately for Minor, insert as a long reliever to help work out his kinks and bolster the bullpen?

 

The underlying and driving theme in all this bickering is "How much is Dempster worth?" I happen to think getting Mike Minor (and a servicable cheap reliever in Medlen) in return, as per the suggested trade by Bowden (which was stupid to begin with) was a damn good deal and it would be foolish not to pull the trigger on that deal.

 

To NOT want to trade 4 months of Ryan Dempster for 3 years of Kris Medlen and 5 years of Mike Minor? Sorry, I think that's a really dumb move, and that's kind of the whole point I was trying to make in general.

 

I can imagine there is a case to be made in support of such a move, I think it's ridiculous to suggest that not wanting to make that move is dumb.

[Clem Fandango]

But at this point you're trying to get as much value out of Dempster as you possibly can. He's expensive, even for a half year, so you'd have to eat a lot of contract. Would you prefer a guy with some MLB struggles in his first season's worth of starts who has a good track record and top prospect pedigree from one year ago who you could slot into your rotation if needed or, probably more appropriately for Minor, insert as a long reliever to help work out his kinks and bolster the bullpen?

 

The underlying and driving theme in all this bickering is "How much is Dempster worth?" I happen to think getting Mike Minor (and a servicable cheap reliever in Medlen) in return, as per the suggested trade by Bowden (which was stupid to begin with) was a damn good deal and it would be foolish not to pull the trigger on that deal.

 

To NOT want to trade 4 months of Ryan Dempster for 3 years of Kris Medlen and 5 years of Mike Minor? Sorry, I think that's a really dumb move, and that's kind of the whole point I was trying to make in general.

 

I can imagine there is a case to be made in support of such a move, I think it's ridiculous to suggest that not wanting to make that move is dumb.

 

Ridiculous to suggest not wanting to do it is dumb, if there are other offers on the table to consider. We're speaking in regards to one specific trade suggestion.

 

I think that's the kind of deal we could never expect to get for Dempster, I think we can get good players back for Dempster, sure, but I don't think anyone will give up their top prospects for him. We'd have to pick up some Top 10-20 projectable prospects for him, but I think that particular deal has the Braves waaaaay overpaying for Dempster. In the choice between that trade and picking up some mid-tier prospects it would come down to personal preference over the players involved. I'd prefer a guy like Minor who can contribute and be worked on immediately at the MLB level over the kind of prospect package Dempster might yield in return (IMO). But if we can pull a top prospect or two away from someone who is desperate, then yeah definitely consider the alternatives.

 

But the argument made pages ago was in response to the ridiculous proposal that Jim Bowden made with no other alternative proposal to consider in that regard

[jersey cubs fan]

I'm not really interested in guys who can be worked on at the major league level. That's what Volstad was. The readiness to pitch today at the major league level (not to mention to do so with disastrous results) isn't really a big motivator for me. I'd much rather look into getting something without so much stink on it.

 

And I'd much much rather ignore anything Jim Bowden suggests, just as a sort of rule in life.