Fukudome Angry with Cubs Vendors?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

So why doesn't TBS get all kinds of angry letters when they play "A Christmas Story" every year?

Are you defending the shirts now? Or still just fixated on whether the message is racist or not? Why split that hair when you think, "They are insensitive, rude, offensive, stereotypical and wrong?"

 

Because I think accuracy and distinctions are important. To quote that kids book, "The Giver," "precision of language, please!"

 

There is a real and valid difference between offensive attempts at humor and actual racism, and it is important to understand and be able to identify the difference between the two.

[CubinNY]

So why doesn't TBS get all kinds of angry letters when they play "A Christmas Story" every year?

Are you defending the shirts now? Or still just fixated on whether the message is racist or not? Why split that hair when you think, "They are insensitive, rude, offensive, stereotypical and wrong?"

 

Because I think accuracy and distinctions are important. To quote that kids book, "The Giver," "precision of language, please!"

 

There is a real and valid difference between offensive attempts at humor and actual racism, and it is important to understand and be able to identify the difference between the two.

What is that difference?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

What is that difference?

 

Racism is the belief that certain races (usually their own) are inherently superior to others.

 

Offensive racial humor is usually based on the idea that certain races and cultures have stereotypical characteristics (which can be positive or negative) that can be sources of humor.

 

It's a valid and important distinction.

 

An example that shows the difference:

 

Racism is false. Japanese people are not inferior.

 

Offensive humor can be based in truth. People of Asian descent tend to have slanted eyes, and a person whose first language is Japanese will likely have an accent when first speaking English that includes pronouncing "l"s as "r"s. It's not an appropriate place to find humor, but it's also not racist.

[UK1679666180]

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2008/04/19/cubs-remove-racist-shirts-from-wrigley/

 

Cubs take swift action.

 

 

Fwiw, there were vendors outside Wrigley selling that shirt today.

[1908]

It's a valid and important distinction.

I see your point, but if the only way to defend something is by saying "it's not technically racist," it's not a battle worth fighting. The shirt sucks. To get into a semantical argument over whether or not it's racist isn't really the point.

Snood posted this in another thread and I agree completely.

[CyHawk_Cub]

I know I'm making a huge assumption here, since we're on an internet message board and I have no real idea as to this board's demographic, but as an American of Asian descent, I always find it bemusing to watch white people discuss race issues. Sorry, I just do.. Like any white person has a soap-dropping clue what it's like to be the target of racism & bigotry.

 

 

That argument has never made any sense to me. You don't have to have experienced something to be able to discuss it. It's like Joe Morgan's "he never played the game, so he can't truly know" spiel. It's dumb.

 

Even if your dumb premise was right, you still need white people to enter the race discussion. I mean, how can you expect to fix the problem by cutting white people from the discussion? Absurd.

 

I'm not gonna dispute the logical merits of your argument...b/c I can't. It's just one of those unexplainable things. And I'm not quite down w/ analogizing discussion of baseball w/ a topic that has been historically & socially divisive, but that's just me. Guess I don't see the point in analogizing everything like is all the rage on message boards.

[CyHawk_Cub]

I know I'm making a huge assumption here . . .

I always find it bemusing to watch white people discuss race issues . . .

Like any white person has a soap-dropping clue what it's like to be the target of racism & bigotry. . .

 

^---Edited to make a summary of how I took your original post.

 

An assumption, a generalization, and an exaggeration. Out of curiousity, what do you observe in "our" discussions that are troublesome?

 

You may be dead on correct with some of your feelings -- about the failure of productive race discussions. But you're not likely winning any minds with that post.

 

Again, I won't dispute your POV either. Look, I didn't say that white people shouldn't be part of the discourse...only that I find it "bemusing", that is the word I used. I think you might be making a bit of an assumption yourself. At least I admit my assumption. Oh, and just to be clear, I identify mostly w/ white, middle class America. My genetic code is Asian, but I was adopted by white parents. Hell, you would have zero clue I am Asian by my name. I get a kick out of meeting people who know me by name only, who have talked w/ me over the phone dozens of times...the looks on their faces is priceless!!

 

Oh, and I also didn't say anything about finding anything "troublesome" in white people's discussions of race...again, I said "bemusing"... To be fair, I didn't really elaborate either... I suppoose you could say that I get a kick out of hearing liberally inclined whites discuss racism w/ some sort of informed slant... I don't wanna go off on that tangent though.. I hate to use such a pat rationalization, but I will: the experience of minorities just can't be fully understood by those in the majority. God I hate that argument, but that's all I'm left with... I realize there are logical holes in some of the things I say; large enough for at ruck to be driven through it. That may be the point though...it's not entirely a logical discussion...wish it was, b/c then we wouldn't even need to have the discussion in the first place.

 

Oh, a final thought....I'm not trying to win any minds w/ my post. .......

 

EDIT: I did use "bemusing"....sorry, my bad...improper use of the word. It just hit me; that's why you thought I found white discussion oif race as "troublesome"....b/c that actually is what I said...it wasn't what I meant; it's been a long weekend. The connotation I intended was "irony" or even "amusement"... My apologies...

[OleMissCub]

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2008/04/19/cubs-remove-racist-shirts-from-wrigley/

 

Cubs take swift action.

 

 

Fwiw, there were vendors outside Wrigley selling that shirt today.

 

Yep, I saw three different ones.

[Roast]

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2008/04/19/cubs-remove-racist-shirts-from-wrigley/

 

Cubs take swift action.

 

 

Fwiw, there were vendors outside Wrigley selling that shirt today.

 

Yep, I saw three different ones.

I saw some guy walking out wearing the shirt in question. Apparently he doesnt read the SunTimes. Which...i suppose would make him a normal human being.

[cubfan]

I kind of understand what Sarcastic is saying. I had a spanish teacher that would get outraged by any thing that could possiable be seen as racist. She left teaching to work at a bank that needed a translater for a large number of hispanic people that were working at a local factory. She quit working there after a few months and when asked why, she said she couldn't stand working with those people. Some people over react and make a big deal over things like this, and when they witness extreme racisim right in front of there face do nothing. It is easy to be outraged and make a big deal about something like t-shirts, but it is hard to tell a coworker or boss that a joke offends you or stop going to your favorite resturant when you see staff or a manager be racist.

That said, I'm glad they put a stop to selling the t-shirts and found them offensive. I wouldn't say that I was angry that someone sold them, but really dissapointed or depressed that so many people must of bought them.

[Larry Horse]

The only thing that matters in this entire episode is that Fukodome doesn't like the shirts.

 

That means they shouldn't be sold.

 

Why would any Cub fan buy and wear this shirt knowing that the player it's directed toward plays for the Cubs, seems to be a fan favorite, is a good player and is offended by this?

 

This is entirely different than a shirt that says "Hundley Sucks" or something along those lines.

 

End of story.

[Yeti]

How are these shirts racist? A little insensitive? Sure. But Racist? It's not like they have Fukudome flying a plane with bombs falling.

west virginia...you ppl never knew what was good for ya...i wont start believing now

[XZero771679666304]

So why doesn't TBS get all kinds of angry letters when they play "A Christmas Story" every year?

Are you defending the shirts now? Or still just fixated on whether the message is racist or not? Why split that hair when you think, "They are insensitive, rude, offensive, stereotypical and wrong?"

 

Because I think accuracy and distinctions are important. To quote that kids book, "The Giver," "precision of language, please!"

 

There is a real and valid difference between offensive attempts at humor and actual racism, and it is important to understand and be able to identify the difference between the two.

 

That is a matter of semantics, and misses the point, IMO.

 

Anyone can easily identify acts of "actual racism", and at this point they aren't tolerated.

 

But things like what you call "offensive attempts at humor" are actually racism at it's most insidious. They are things that encourage generalization, but are seen as light hearted by those in the majority. Things like the shirt in question that serve to bring attention to what makes a person or people different (and not in a "celebration of diversity" sort of way) than the majority are by nature divisive and more often than not offensive.

 

And it's not easy for someone isn't in a minority and isn't reminded on a daily basis in a myriad of ways that they are in fact "the other" to understand. When they are raised in the majority, and being in the majority is all they know (particularly in a homogeneous place like the midwest), then generalizing about those who are different becomes even easier. They might see slanted eyes and "horry cow" as being an amusing play on reality, because many asian people have slanted eyes and pronounce l's as r's.

 

And even if they find it offensive, it's only because they see it as mockery. But when you are the one in that minority, and already feel alienated, those charming little anecdotes and mockeries have a much deeper effect. They remind you that you are seen different, that you are being generalized, that the majority doesn't really empathize with you. And right or wrong, it sends the message that you are seen as inferior. And there a million things in a million places everyday that are just like that shirt, even if the majority doesn't notice. And they make you bitter, angry and sad.

 

The most dangerous racists aren't Klan members or the like, because they are pretty well marginalized and easily identified.

 

The most dangerous racists are the ones who don't realize they are racists. Their racism isn't conscious, and they probably aren't cognizant of it at all. They see minorities' differences in a general way, and as just the natural order of things. They see jokes like the t-shirt just a humorous expression of that order. They don't see the real harm in it because outside of watching Chris Rock or Dave Chappelle, the have never been referred to in that general way, and when that's over, it's over, and they can be comforted by their status in the majority. Besides, it was funny (though I doubt they'd care to hear it every day of their lives).

 

It is these people, probably like whoever came up with that shirt and the people who wear them, that are the most dangerous. They are because they make it institutional and societal, they keep our differences present in of all our minds. It is the most racial divisive force because it is so insidious, so subtle, like an infestation you aren't aware of. And one that, whether you are aware of it or not, effects how we interact with each other in a profound way.

 

And people like that aren't necessarily bad, or somehow malevolent. They are just people who aren't aware of how askew their perceptions are.

 

Like Dusty Baker and OBP, the biggest problems are usually so because you don't recognize them. Generalizing others is a problem we all have, and it usually takes form in ways that seem innocuous to us, so it is important to take the time to identify them.

 

So I think that when we see things like "offensive attempts at humor", it is important we make it known that they aren't okay, even if we aren't actually brimming with moral outrage.

 

Ok, I'm half asleep and I'm not sure how much sense that made, but I feel I've shared my 2 cents.

[FergieJ31]

It's sort of like arguing the difference between letter of the law and spirit of the law.

 

Like Kyle I really get tired of the media slamming someone as 'racist' when all they are is racially insensitive, at worst. The true meaning of the word racist is disturbing, and it's such a charged pejorative that I think it's important to not throw the term around.

 

That said, the t-shirt is just wrong on so many levels. Not racist, but classless and insensitive. Only a buffoon would buy it.

[bcl412]

It's sort of like arguing the difference between letter of the law and spirit of the law.

 

Like Kyle I really get tired of the media slamming someone as 'racist' when all they are is racially insensitive, at worst. The true meaning of the word racist is disturbing, and it's such a charged pejorative that I think it's important to not throw the term around.

 

That said, the t-shirt is just wrong on so many levels. Not racist, but classless and insensitive. Only a buffoon would buy it.

 

I guess it's kind of the same thing as calling someone an a-hole when really they are just stupid. One can be fixed fairly easily the other one is much harder. Although if the stupid one is unwilling to learn they start to resemble the a-hole.

[MustangMike]

Okay, this is ugly...

 

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2008/04/18/cubs-t-shirt-vendors-capitalizing-on-overt-racial-stereotypes/?icid=100214839x1200298676x1200013027

 

 

It's offensive to him, and no matter what anyone thinks, the cubs need to come down hard on this. Can you ban a shirt from Wrigley like they do at Great America and in schools? I wouldn't see why not.

[wvcbxl]

The only thing that matters in this entire episode is that Fukodome doesn't like the shirts.

 

"Not liking" may be an understatement. As I understand Japanese culture, he would never use the kind of language common here on NSBB to voice his displeasure, but from what has been reported to be his comments I assume him to be upset.

[CuseCubFan69]

I'm glad the Cubs squashed this quickly because if they didn't you could forget any other Asian players from coming to Chicago.

[jersey cubs fan]

I'm having a hard time seeing the argument against those who have spoken out against these shirts.

 

A shirt that pointed out the unique stereotypical characterizations, no matter how accurate, of a black, hispanic or any other category of player, would not be tolerated.

 

I also don't just blame the idiots who bought them and absolve the sellers, both are idiots, and far worse than simply insensitive.

[CuseCubFan69]

I'm having a hard time seeing the argument against those who have spoken out against these shirts.

 

A shirt that pointed out the unique stereotypical characterizations, no matter how accurate, of a black, hispanic or any other category of player, would not be tolerated.

 

I also don't just blame the idiots who bought them and absolve the sellers, both are idiots, and far worse than simply insensitive.

 

I was listening to an SU football game over the radio about 15 years or so ago. They had a new car dealer speaking in a mock Japanese lingo and it was way over the top. My wife and I looked at each other and we could not believe that this was even allowed and the spot was shown at least 5 times during the game.

[Jon]

I'm glad the Cubs squashed this quickly because if they didn't you could forget any other Asian players from coming to Chicago.

Effectively the Cubs did nothing. At least not yet. They haven't actually prevented vendors from continuing to sell the t-shirts and they don't care if you wear them inside the ballpark.

 

And it's not just one t-shirt. There are several t-shirts and one of the headbands says it, as well.

[Roast]

Okay, this is ugly...

 

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2008/04/18/cubs-t-shirt-vendors-capitalizing-on-overt-racial-stereotypes/?icid=100214839x1200298676x1200013027

 

 

It's offensive to him, and no matter what anyone thinks, the cubs need to come down hard on this. Can you ban a shirt from Wrigley like they do at Great America and in schools? I wouldn't see why not.

They certainly can. It's private property so they can ban whatever the heck they want. I'm interested to see if we're told anything about it in the upcoming games.

[CuseCubFan69]

I'm glad the Cubs squashed this quickly because if they didn't you could forget any other Asian players from coming to Chicago.

Effectively the Cubs did nothing. At least not yet. They haven't actually prevented vendors from continuing to sell the t-shirts and they don't care if you wear them inside the ballpark.

 

And it's not just one t-shirt. There are several t-shirts and one of the headbands says it, as well.

 

Yikes, that ain't good.

[Sludgeworth21]

I’ve been discussing this with my friend at work. I think he’s spot on (by the way, we are both Filipno Cub fans):

 

Remember Harold and Kumar? Harold's boss wasn't outwardly racist, but at the same time he had that whole "Asian guys like doing that kind of stuff" attitude. That's exactly what this shirt represents. People just don't understand how Asians can be so offended, seeing as they're the "model minority" which is in itself kind of a covertly offensive stereotype, which kind of implies that Asians are docile and quick to please like a bunch of work dogs. It's the same kind of attitude Steve Carell's character in The Office would take. He doesn't consider himself racist, but he embraces stereotypes and doesn't find anything wrong with them.

[Jon]

These aren't even really modern stereotypes, though. And they're used to demean, which means that there is an attempt, whether knowingly or not, to give that individual or entire race an inferior status in our society. It's not a neutral difference.