Ryan Braun suspended for rest of 2013

[Wilson A2000]

They weren't really breaking any rules? If by 'any' you mean the rule that says don't take steroids then they were. I'm not romanticizing anyone. It's not romanticizing to say we have no reason to think Hank took amphetamines outside of the one time he said he did which was legal federally and in baseball until 1971.

 

Besides all the bogus circumstantial evidence you use to judge players who aren't 100 years old

 

If by circumstantial evidence you mean testing positive for steroids

 

Something tells me you haven't bought any positive tester's "only one time" or "it was an accident" excuse like you did for St. Henry.

 

St Pettitte. Either way wasn't against the rules for Aaron.

[SouthSideRyan]

No because designer steroids had a far bigger impact on performance than anything before it

 

Yeah, allowing non-whites to play didn't mean [expletive].

[Wilson A2000]

No because designer steroids had a far bigger impact on performance than anything before it

 

Yeah, allowing non-whites to play didn't mean [expletive].

 

We're only comparing types of PED's here, not race

[SouthSideRyan]

No because designer steroids had a far bigger impact on performance than anything before it

 

Yeah, allowing non-whites to play didn't mean [expletive].

 

We're only comparing types of PED's here, not race

 

So what you're telling me is that the most recent science of PED has brought about the most effective kinds of drugs, and not the late 1800s?

Edited July 25, 2013 by SouthSideRyan

[XZero771679666304]

There is no corroborating evidence that he did PED's other than the one time he said he did.

 

LOL.

 

Yeah, it's really amazing.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

They weren't really breaking any rules? If by 'any' you mean the rule that says don't take steroids then they were. I'm not romanticizing anyone. It's not romanticizing to say we have no reason to think Hank took amphetamines outside of the one time he said he did which was legal federally and in baseball until 1971.

 

Please quote the exact rule that says that prior to the current testing regime.

 

In case you can't find it, here it is.

 

It is quite vague. It says the use of illegal drugs by MLB is prohibited. Yes, it mentions steroids, but the key prohibition was on illegal use and/or possession. Now, while it may seem like a technicallity, but if Sosa received his injections in the offseason under the care of a doctor in the DR, then he never violated the policy as it was stated since his use of such was not illegal in the country he recieved them. Now, maybe you don't like that...and surely it violates some of the competitive spirit of the law, but since there was no testing of "prohibitive" substances and since Sosa's only implication is a heresay rumor that he was among those who failed the 2003 test which was simply for "informational" purposes, I don't see how you can point at him and clearly say he used, yada yada yada, while ignoring the same level of circumstatial evidence that say someone like Aaron used.

 

My take isn't to protect cheaters, but it was clear MLB turned a blind-eye to PED's for a long time, and not until Congress and public pressure got serious about it. If someone wants to refer to the 1990-2003 as the steroid era, go ahead, but I think that the best players of that era should get the same recognition as the best players from other eras.

[illiniguy]

 

No because designer steroids had a far bigger impact on performance than anything before it

Everyone agrees these guys cheated better, but they have always been cheating, don't punish the guys for being born in a smarter era.

Edited July 25, 2013 by illiniguy

[SouthSideRyan]

So the 2020s will be the EVEN BETTER THIS TIME PED ERA?

[illiniguy]

So the 2020s will be the EVEN BETTER THIS TIME PED ERA?

I hope so, the last era was awesome. I want 100 bombs in a year.

[Careless]

PED's don't make you a once in a generation baseball talent

Sure, they can turn you from "one of the best of his generation" to "the best in the history of the sport" almost a decade after your natural physical peak, but they couldn't take an above average player and make him a lot better. That would be ridiculous.

PED's don't make you a once in a generation baseball talent

 

Tell that to Bonds who only became once in a generation after he took them. PED's made multiple once in a generation players (Bonds, Sosa, ARod). None of those guys would have been that good without them.

 

Holy smokes are you comically wrong about this.

 

What's comical are the number of home runs that Bonds and Sosa hit right when they began taking PED's. The frequency of their homers is directly caused by taking them.

 

You have no idea when Sosa started using PEDs. We do, however, know when Bonds started; after that year he had an insane season where he hit 73. His other near-full PED years? 49, 46, 45, 45. Some other Bonds' HR totals pre-1999? 33, 34, 46, 37, 33, 42, 40, 37.

49, 46, 45 were also his 2nd, 4th, and 5th best WAR seasons at ages 38-40, including a 12 WAR. Yeah, those are some good, powerful drugs.

He only hit 50 or more HR in a single season once in his entire career. Next highest? 46, in 1993; well before 1999.

You wrote this after you wrote about him hitting 49 in a steroid year, you know.

[Careless]

What kind of player was Sosa before roids? Occasional All Star? Now he has all time great stats, far above HOF stats and once in a generation player. But yeah they don't do much. I mean he has to swing the bat right?

 

Sosa just barely beats out Mike Piazza for 10th in most WAR accrued during the years of Sosa's career, even when excluding his disastrous 2005 & 2007. He hit a bunch of home runs and became very popular. Don't confuse that with actually being a consistently great baseball player.

That doesn't sound like it eliminates him from being a "once in a generation player" to me, but maybe people would like to define that term better. There are, after all, basically 11 "best at their position" players in the league at any one time, so I wouldn't have a problem having 10 "once in a generation" players at a time, were they all very different players

[Careless]

black and foreign players were not allowed to play for decades

Which decades, specifically?

[Careless]

PED's were more useful for players to maintain their ability into their later years rather than becoming juiced up home run hitting freaks. The majority of these players basically bought themselves 3-5 more years of playing time and got a nice contract out of it instead of naturally regressing to DFA fodder. And a lot of them didn't start putting up these numbers until after their prime. They cheated to stay in the game longer and make more money, not to become Babe Ruth.

Those were just the cases where it was really obvious. The Melkys of the world weren't caught 10+ years ago, as obvious as they were.

 

If you get 500 and are clean you are most likely in, era or not. 600 no doubt. Bad argument.

 

YOU YOURSELF ARE EXPRESSING DOUBT AND SOSA IS NOT IN THE HALL OF FAME.

You're jumping so hard to attack him, you've shut off your brain and can't even read. Calm down, TT.

[Sammy Sofa]

You wrote this after you wrote about him hitting 49 in a steroid year, you know.

 

Whoops. Good catch.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Sammy Sofa

[Sammy Sofa]

49, 46, 45 were also his 2nd, 4th, and 5th best WAR seasons at ages 38-40, including a 12 WAR. Yeah, those are some good, powerful drugs.

 

So what? Nobody was ever arguing that Bonds wasn't using a mountain of PEDs, or that it didn't help him. The whole Bonds tangent was in response to Wilson's ridiculous idea that we don't know for sure whether or not Bonds was a HOF-worthy or "once in a generation talent" before he started using. You subtract his "steroid years" and he is still easily and obviously both of those things.

[Wilson A2000]

I guess I have to say it one more time so we all know - Bonds would have been a Hall of Famer before he took steroids. I made that clear from the beginning. But he would not have been the best ever without PED's and I think his career numbers make him the best hitter, if not the best player ever. Someone who went to the level Bonds went to juice and cheat out of sheer jealousy - maybe an unprecedented level of juicing (the repeat offender ARod is close) and became the best ever only because of that does not belong in the Hall. I prefer a Hall of Fame that isn't tainted. You can say that there are people who are in the Hall who cheated. I'm sure there are plenty, but that in no way means we should allow every cheater in from now on. Once a baseball stat becomes a stat I don't think you can wipe it away. Bonds can keep his fake stats, but he needs to be punished. Staying out of the Hall is what I would consider fair. This is one of the deterrents baseball needs to try to stop the current steroid era.

 

Vance, greenies were not illegal for most of Aaron's career. Even if he took them regularly, I would have no problem with it. All the players had access to them and MLB had no problem with them until '71. And the fact that everyone could take greenies legally pre '71 is the point. Greenies were advantageous and they were legally there for the taking. Post 1991 steroids and PED's weren't. I don't know enough law to determine if your DR scenario is considered legal by MLB, but I find it highly unlikely that a guy dumb enough to use a corked bat only took PED's in the DR. Sammy doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. Would they even work well if he was off them during the season and on during the offseason? Don't you need to be on regular cycles?

[mul21]

I guess I have to say it one more time so we all know - Bonds would have been a Hall of Famer before he took steroids. I made that clear from the beginning. But he would not have been the best ever without PED's and I think his career numbers make him the best hitter, if not the best player ever. Someone who went to the level Bonds went to juice and cheat out of sheer jealousy - maybe an unprecedented level of juicing (the repeat offender ARod is close) and became the best ever only because of that does not belong in the Hall. I prefer a Hall of Fame that isn't tainted. You can say that there are people who are in the Hall who cheated. I'm sure there are plenty, but that in no way means we should allow every cheater in from now on. Once a baseball stat becomes a stat I don't think you can wipe it away. Bonds can keep his fake stats, but he needs to be punished. Staying out of the Hall is what I would consider fair. This is one of the deterrents baseball needs to try to stop the current steroid era.

 

Vance, greenies were not illegal for most of Aaron's career. Even if he took them regularly, I would have no problem with it. All the players had access to them and MLB had no problem with them until '71. And the fact that everyone could take greenies legally pre '71 is the point. Greenies were advantageous and they were legally there for the taking. Post 1991 steroids and PED's weren't. I don't know enough law to determine if your DR scenario is considered legal by MLB, but I find it highly unlikely that a guy dumb enough to use a corked bat only took PED's in the DR. Sammy doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. Would they even work well if he was off them during the season and on during the offseason? Don't you need to be on regular cycles?

 

Not true. Amphetamines were made illegal without a prescription in 1965. So, they were in fact illegal for over half of Aaron's 23 years in MLB.

 

And why do you get to be the arbitrator of all that is or isn't okay in terms of PEDs?

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I guess I have to say it one more time so we all know - Bonds would have been a Hall of Famer before he took steroids. I made that clear from the beginning. But he would not have been the best ever without PED's and I think his career numbers make him the best hitter, if not the best player ever. Someone who went to the level Bonds went to juice and cheat out of sheer jealousy - maybe an unprecedented level of juicing (the repeat offender ARod is close) and became the best ever only because of that does not belong in the Hall. I prefer a Hall of Fame that isn't tainted. You can say that there are people who are in the Hall who cheated. I'm sure there are plenty, but that in no way means we should allow every cheater in from now on. Once a baseball stat becomes a stat I don't think you can wipe it away. Bonds can keep his fake stats, but he needs to be punished. Staying out of the Hall is what I would consider fair. This is one of the deterrents baseball needs to try to stop the current steroid era.

 

Vance, greenies were not illegal for most of Aaron's career. Even if he took them regularly, I would have no problem with it. All the players had access to them and MLB had no problem with them until '71. And the fact that everyone could take greenies legally pre '71 is the point. Greenies were advantageous and they were legally there for the taking. Post 1991 steroids and PED's weren't. I don't know enough law to determine if your DR scenario is considered legal by MLB, but I find it highly unlikely that a guy dumb enough to use a corked bat only took PED's in the DR. Sammy doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. Would they even work well if he was off them during the season and on during the offseason? Don't you need to be on regular cycles?

 

I find this comical. You would have no problem if Aaron took greenies regularly because they were legally and readily available, but steroids outside the US were legally and readily available, yet you have a huge issue with it? You seem to make a lot of speculation about Sosa, when in fact none of it is based on fact. There really is only a small amount of direct evidence he took anything- outside of your "well, just look at him" test. Sosa was never caught using. One NYT reporter claims from an unamed source that Sosa tested positive in 2003 on a test that was supposed to be anonymous. Sounds like heresay to me....even more so that if one of Aaron's teammates came out and said he took greenies all the time. You like to play the Sosa wouldn't appear to be smart enough to only take PEDs in the offseason in his home country....well let's flip that motherfucking coin. Assuming how many of Sosa's teammates disliked him (Wood, Grace, etc), if Sosa was taking PEDs during the season, don't you think one of those guys would have come out with some direct evidence and happily shared it with us. Do you think he would have been smart enough to hide it from all the people who were out to get him? Players far more smarter than Sosa (Clemens, McGwire, etc) have been busted by the testimony of others, but Sosa- even though everyone was looking for evidence against him- really has no evidence except an anonymous second-hand heresay accout that he failed what was supposed to be an anonymous test and "well [expletive], he sure looks like he took something!"

 

And it's not that I'm saying Sosa was clean. In all likelihood he juiced the [expletive] out of himself and his nuts are likely the size of a small piece of gravel, but really there's no evidence. No more than anyone else. And frankly, I have a hard time punishing anyone (and yes denying the HOF is a punishment to a lot of these guys) with no evidence. And then the flip side becomes how do we know who really did or didn't? Body size isn't a good judge. So then we end up with the [expletive] that we have now where the voters aren't voting anyone in. It's stupid. Baseball screwed the pooch. If they wanted to punish these guys, they should have tested regularly. Since they didn't, I think we should just acknowledge the players who were the best of their era while acknowledging that we don't know who of that era (or any previous era for that matter) really enhanced performance.

 

Aaron was one of the best HR hitters of his era. Sosa was one of the best of his. That's what we have and what we should acknowledge. The rest is just bs.

[Cubfanintheknow]

We now return to our regularly scheduled bashing of "D-bag of the Decade" Ryan Braun:

 

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/rodgers-says-he-was-lied-braun

 

Aaron Rodgers speaks. And he's not happy. Ha-ha!

[captain_kickass]

MLB is going to announce all the Biogenesis suspensions this week. A-Rod is expected to be banned through the conclusion of the 2014 season, playoffs included.

 

http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/396731-mlb-ready-to-reveal-all-biogenesis-suspensions?eref=sihp

[Tangled Up in Plaid]

MLB is going to announce all the Biogenesis suspensions this week. A-Rod is expected to be banned through the conclusion of the 2014 season, playoffs included.

 

http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/396731-mlb-ready-to-reveal-all-biogenesis-suspensions?eref=sihp

 

So basically his career is over. Nice.

[captain_kickass]

MLB is going to announce all the Biogenesis suspensions this week. A-Rod is expected to be banned through the conclusion of the 2014 season, playoffs included.

 

http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/396731-mlb-ready-to-reveal-all-biogenesis-suspensions?eref=sihp

 

So basically his career is over. Nice.

 

Although he will still maintain HOF eligibility and could manage/GM/own a club in the future-- not that any of that is likely to happen, but he's not banned from it.

 

Also the thing that sucks most is he'll probably retire and that means the Yankees are off the hook for that $90 million just like they wanted all along.

[imb]

arod is not going to retire and leave 90 million on the table

[captain_kickass]

arod is not going to retire and leave 90 million on the table

 

Well, whatever he's owed after 2014 anyway, as the Yankees at least aren't on the hook for any suspension money.

[Tangled Up in Plaid]

A-Rod is owed $61 million after 2014. I assume when he's off the suspended list he'll just negotiate some sort of buyout with the Yankees and retire.