Ryan Braun suspended for rest of 2013

[Sammy Sofa]

STEROIDS! Existing in anabolic form since 1931, but only making dudes unacceptably swole from whenever the hell Wilson decides and only certain dudes and only certain levels of swole you know the one.

[Cubswin11]

But I do think the performance greenies got you is nowhere near the benefits BALCO and Biogenesis gave. Worlds apart.

Well, there is this. Granted it's from Wikipedia....

 

"In addition, amphetamine is also used by some professional,[76] collegiate[77] and high school[77] athletes for its strong stimulant effects. At low to moderate therapeutic doses (10–40 mg), amphetamine has been shown to increase physical strength, stamina, and endurance in numerous studies.[78][79][80][81] Like methylphenidate and bupropion, amphetamine increases the endurance of athletes primarily through reuptake inhibition and effluxion of dopamine in the central nervous system."

 

 

"There has never been an adequately large randomized controlled trial showing definitively that HGH provides benefits to athletes and that there are no significant adverse drug reactions; there have been many small studies and several of these studies were recently reviewed and analyzed in a meta-analysis. [4] While the authors indicated that the meta-analysis was limited by the fact that few of the included studies evaluated athletic performance and by the fact that dosing protocols in the studies may not reflect real-world doses and regimens, their conclusions were as follows:

 

"Claims that growth hormone enhances physical performance are not supported by the scientific literature. Although the limited available evidence suggests that growth hormone increases lean body mass, it may not improve strength; in addition, it may worsen exercise capacity and increase adverse events. More research is needed to conclusively determine the effects of growth hormone on athletic performance."

 

So studies have proven Amphetamine's definitely help while the HGH studies are limited and their initial findings point more towards them not helping performance.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Cubswin11

[Sammy Sofa]

Someone ring the gong for Wilson.

[Wilson A2000]

That's why they call it the Human No Growth Hormone. Whatever Bonds, Sosa, and ARod were on worked.

[Cubswin11]

That's why they call it the Human No Growth Hormone. Whatever Bonds, Sosa, and ARod were on worked.

Like Androstenedione?

 

"Androstenedione was manufactured as a dietary supplement, often called andro (or andros) for short. Sports Illustrated credits Patrick Arnold for introducing androstenedione to the North American market.[3] Andro was legal and able to be purchased over the counter, and, as a consequence, it was in common use in Major League Baseball throughout the 1990s by record-breaking sluggers like Mark McGwire.....Barry R. McCaffrey, the director of the White House's Office of National Drug Control Policy, attempted to determine whether androstenedione could be classified as an anabolic steroid in July 1999. However, he could not because there is no proof of it promoting muscle growth.....The "Andro-Project", conducted by medical researchers at East Tennessee State University, showed that the supplement "Andro"(androstenedione/androstenediol) does not increase muscle mass or strength.......A 2006 review paper summarized several studies that examined the effect of androstenedione on strength training. At dosages of 50 mg or 100 mg per day, andro had no effect on muscle strength or size, or on body fat levels. One study used a daily dosage of 300 mg of androstenedione combined with several other supplements, and also found no increase in strength when compared to a control group that did not take the supplements."

[Soul]

How huge did Ryan Braun, the supposed topic of this thread, ever get?

Quit sullying the issue with your logic and on-topic discussion.

 

Braun is so yesterday, man.

[illiniguy]

Wow, he said he only took them once?!? There's no possible reason why he'd lie about using PEDs!

 

And old players with power surges: all on the juice except for Hank Aaron. Why? JUST BECAUSE, DAMMIT.

 

We have the physical evidence on Bonds, not Aaron. I give people the benefit of the doubt. Same for Pujols.

 

You have no "physical evidence" because nobody was looking and testing, yet you've had people in the game talk about how PED usage goes back decades.

Goes back to Hall of Famer Pud Gavin in 1889, FWIW.

[SouthSideRyan]

 

And pointing to guys like Aurilia is using a terrible example since he basically had one insane outlier season and was pretty unremarkable the rest of his year.

 

He probably should've stayed on the steroids.

 

Not to mention, how dumb are all these pitchers? Could've been taking steroids and putting up record setting numbers

[SouthSideRyan]

PED's don't make you a once in a generation baseball talent

 

Tell that to Bonds who only became once in a generation after he took them. PED's made multiple once in a generation players (Bonds, Sosa, ARod). None of those guys would have been that good without them. Bonds and ARod were going to be clean HOFers, but we'll never know for sure.

 

Oh my.

 

This is delicious.

 

Bonds' line through 1998:

 

.290 .411 .556 .966

 

164 OPS+

 

411 HR

 

99.6 WAR

 

Yeah, I think we know for sure.

 

I think Bonds is a tough example to use because he was so good all around and would have obviously been a sure fire HOFer without the cream and the clear. But you certainly can't deny he wouldn't have ever become even a 50 HR guy without them.

 

Oh can't I?

[SouthSideRyan]

The type of performance enhancing benefits greenies gave and BALCO gave are world's apart

 

So you don't have a problem with "cheating" as long as the "cheating" doesn't help too much.

[SouthSideRyan]

Sosa got 200 homers due to PED's

 

Science.

[SouthSideRyan]

Based on Sosa's numbers, if he was clean there is no way a 600+ home run guy is not getting in Cooperstown relatively low WAR or not.Sosa got 200 homers due to PED's and he's wasn't going to have HOF numbers without them.

How can you possibly put a number on this?

 

Statistical averages. You don't leap in your late 20's or early 30's like that.

 

Ya know...Hank Aaron hit more HRs from his 30s on than he did in his 20s. He also set a career high for HRs at the age of 37.

 

HENRY WOULDN'T DO THAT

[SouthSideRyan]

Wow, he said he only took them once?!? There's no possible reason why he'd lie about using PEDs!

 

And old players with power surges: all on the juice except for Hank Aaron. Why? JUST BECAUSE, DAMMIT.

 

It was just a late life surge you ass!

[SouthSideRyan]

Wow, he said he only took them once?!? There's no possible reason why he'd lie about using PEDs!

 

And old players with power surges: all on the juice except for Hank Aaron. Why? JUST BECAUSE, DAMMIT.

 

We have the physical evidence on Bonds, not Aaron. I give people the benefit of the doubt. Same for Pujols.

 

You have no "physical evidence" because nobody was looking and testing, yet you've had people in the game talk about how PED usage goes back decades.

 

Of course. But has anyone accused Aaron and seen him take them? No, so I give him the benefit. We know ARod took them. I'm not keeping anyone out of the HOF with no evidence, steroid era or not.

 

Then why are you arguing against a bunch of guys who have no evidence?

[SouthSideRyan]

So the only real evidence for you is whether a guy "got huge."

 

Stellar detective skills.

 

Um yeah that's what roids do. People noticed it. Everyone saw Bonds in 2002. He was a different person. Do you think Sosa was on roids in 1998?

 

When do you think Alex Sanchez started on steroids?

[SouthSideRyan]

As opposed to previous eras of PED usage, which were just fine.

 

BECAUSE IT WAS THE OLDEN DAYS!!

[SouthSideRyan]

Wow, he said he only took them once?!? There's no possible reason why he'd lie about using PEDs!

 

And old players with power surges: all on the juice except for Hank Aaron. Why? JUST BECAUSE, DAMMIT.

 

We have the physical evidence on Bonds, not Aaron. I give people the benefit of the doubt. Same for Pujols.

 

You have no "physical evidence" because nobody was looking and testing, yet you've had people in the game talk about how PED usage goes back decades.

Goes back to Hall of Famer Pud Gavin in 1889, FWIW.

 

And even St. Babe??? GUFFAW

[Sammy Sofa]

The type of performance enhancing benefits greenies gave and BALCO gave are world's apart

 

So you don't have a problem with "cheating" as long as the "cheating" doesn't help too much.

 

He must love corked bats.

[SouthSideRyan]

Davey Johnson (in his first season with Hank Aaron) was Rich Aurilia before Rich Aurilia was.

[Wilson A2000]

The type of performance enhancing benefits greenies gave and BALCO gave are world's apart

 

So you don't have a problem with "cheating" as long as the "cheating" doesn't help too much.

 

No, I said both were wrong and I would hold Aaron and Bonds to the same standard. But greenies and modern steroids have far different effects.

[Wilson A2000]

Wow, he said he only took them once?!? There's no possible reason why he'd lie about using PEDs!

 

And old players with power surges: all on the juice except for Hank Aaron. Why? JUST BECAUSE, DAMMIT.

 

We have the physical evidence on Bonds, not Aaron. I give people the benefit of the doubt. Same for Pujols.

 

You have no "physical evidence" because nobody was looking and testing, yet you've had people in the game talk about how PED usage goes back decades.

 

Of course. But has anyone accused Aaron and seen him take them? No, so I give him the benefit. We know ARod took them. I'm not keeping anyone out of the HOF with no evidence, steroid era or not.

 

Then why are you arguing against a bunch of guys who have no evidence?

 

Evidence can go beyond testing. The evidence for Bonds using them was the way his body evolved right after he got jealous at the home run derby. When Sosa came to camp in the late 90's his teammates saw his evolution. I don't think Aaron's body evolved like Sosa's or Bonds's. And no one has accused Aaron of anything that I'm aware of. He said he tried greenies once.

[Wilson A2000]

Sosa got 200 homers due to PED's

 

Science.

 

If Sosa never took steroids how many homers do you think he would have ended up with?

[Sammy Sofa]

Y'know, you've already made it abundantly clear here before that you don't understand evolution, either, so to see you use "evolved" like that is doubly hilarious. Edited July 24, 2013 by Sammy Sofa

[Sammy Sofa]

The type of performance enhancing benefits greenies gave and BALCO gave are world's apart

 

So you don't have a problem with "cheating" as long as the "cheating" doesn't help too much.

 

No, I said both were wrong and I would hold Aaron and Bonds to the same standard. But greenies and modern steroids have far different effects.

 

That's debatable, especially given how it's pretty much a lock that a LOT more players used amphetamines than used Bonds-ian regimes of anabolic steroids.

[Wilson A2000]

Y'know, you've already made it abundantly clear here before that you don't understand evolution, either, so to see you use "evolved" like that is double hilarious.

 

I laughed too as I was posting it