Ryan Braun suspended for rest of 2013

[Cubswin11]

PED's don't make you a once in a generation baseball talent

 

Tell that to Bonds who only became once in a generation after he took them. PED's made multiple once in a generation players (Bonds, Sosa, ARod). None of those guys would have been that good without them. Bonds and ARod were going to be clean HOFers, but we'll never know for sure. I think the price for keeping your PED enhanced stats is not getting into the HOF. They are part of the narrative of the steroid era, but the damage they did to the game is not HOF worthy.

At what point in his career do you think he started taking them or when do you think it's safe to assume so? If you just take his first 5 years in the league (even though he only played in about 2/3 of the season his first year) he averaged 6.2 fWAR. He was well on his way to a generational guy.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Cubswin11

[Sammy Sofa]

PED's don't make you a once in a generation baseball talent

 

Tell that to Bonds who only became once in a generation after he took them. PED's made multiple once in a generation players (Bonds, Sosa, ARod). None of those guys would have been that good without them. Bonds and ARod were going to be clean HOFers, but we'll never know for sure.

 

Oh my.

 

This is delicious.

 

Bonds' line through 1998:

 

.290 .411 .556 .966

 

164 OPS+

 

411 HR

 

99.6 WAR

 

Yeah, I think we know for sure.

[MSG T]

PED's don't make you a once in a generation baseball talent

 

Tell that to Bonds who only became once in a generation after he took them. PED's made multiple once in a generation players (Bonds, Sosa, ARod). None of those guys would have been that good without them.

 

Holy smokes are you comically wrong about this.

 

No kidding, evidently everyone has 9 straight seasons with an OPS+ over 150 while not being on the juice, including a 204 and 206.

[mul21]

PED's don't make you a once in a generation baseball talent

 

Tell that to Bonds who only became once in a generation after he took them. PED's made multiple once in a generation players (Bonds, Sosa, ARod). None of those guys would have been that good without them.

 

Holy smokes are you comically wrong about this.

 

No he's not. All of those guys would have been really good players but none of them, especially Bonds and his comically ridiculous seasons, would have put up anywhere near the numbers they did. I mean seriously, go look at the post in another thread talking about Rich Aurilia hitting 37 HRs and the top 9 guys in the MVP voting averaging 49 HRs.

[Sammy Sofa]

Wilson, seriously, go look up A-Rod's numbers, too. If you can tell me with a straight face that you can attribute that mostly to PEDs then you have AMAZING self control.

[Wilson A2000]

PED's don't make you a once in a generation baseball talent

 

Tell that to Bonds who only became once in a generation after he took them. PED's made multiple once in a generation players (Bonds, Sosa, ARod). None of those guys would have been that good without them.

 

Holy smokes are you comically wrong about this.

 

What's comical are the number of home runs that Bonds and Sosa hit right when they began taking PED's. The frequency of their homers is directly caused by taking them.

[jersey cubs fan]

PED's don't make you a once in a generation baseball talent

 

Tell that to Bonds who only became once in a generation after he took them. PED's made multiple once in a generation players (Bonds, Sosa, ARod). None of those guys would have been that good without them.

 

Holy smokes are you comically wrong about this.

 

No he's not. All of those guys would have been really good players but none of them, especially Bonds and his comically ridiculous seasons, would have put up anywhere near the numbers they did. I mean seriously, go look at the post in another thread talking about Rich Aurilia hitting 37 HRs and the top 9 guys in the MVP voting averaging 49 HRs.

 

But Bonds was ridiculously good pre-blow up period.

[Sammy Sofa]

PED's don't make you a once in a generation baseball talent

 

Tell that to Bonds who only became once in a generation after he took them. PED's made multiple once in a generation players (Bonds, Sosa, ARod). None of those guys would have been that good without them.

 

Holy smokes are you comically wrong about this.

 

No he's not. All of those guys would have been really good players but none of them, especially Bonds and his comically ridiculous seasons, would have put up anywhere near the numbers they did. I mean seriously, go look at the post in another thread talking about Rich Aurilia hitting 37 HRs and the top 9 guys in the MVP voting averaging 49 HRs.

 

No, he really is wrong. Bonds pretty definitively did not start using until after the 1998 season. His numbers up through that season are amazing.

 

And pointing to guys like Aurilia is using a terrible example since he basically had one insane outlier season and was pretty unremarkable the rest of his year.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Sammy Sofa

[MSG T]

PED's don't make you a once in a generation baseball talent

 

Tell that to Bonds who only became once in a generation after he took them. PED's made multiple once in a generation players (Bonds, Sosa, ARod). None of those guys would have been that good without them.

 

Holy smokes are you comically wrong about this.

 

No he's not. All of those guys would have been really good players but none of them, especially Bonds and his comically ridiculous seasons, would have put up anywhere near the numbers they did. I mean seriously, go look at the post in another thread talking about Rich Aurilia hitting 37 HRs and the top 9 guys in the MVP voting averaging 49 HRs.

 

Bonds would be in the HoF whether he took steroids or not. He was already the best player in baseball.

[jersey cubs fan]

They are part of the narrative of the steroid era, but the damage they did to the game is not HOF worthy.

 

They didn't damage the game at all. It was the golden era.

 

The steroid era vaulted baseball from a declining era in which the NFL didn't just surpass, but lapped it in popularity and the freaking NBA threatened to overtake it. Thankfully the steroid era solidified its space in 2nd place among American sports.

Edited July 24, 2013 by jersey cubs fan

[mul21]

PED's don't make you a once in a generation baseball talent

 

Tell that to Bonds who only became once in a generation after he took them. PED's made multiple once in a generation players (Bonds, Sosa, ARod). None of those guys would have been that good without them. Bonds and ARod were going to be clean HOFers, but we'll never know for sure.

 

Oh my.

 

This is delicious.

 

Bonds' line through 1998:

 

.290 .411 .556 .966

 

164 OPS+

 

411 HR

 

99.6 WAR

 

Yeah, I think we know for sure.

 

I think Bonds is a tough example to use because he was so good all around and would have obviously been a sure fire HOFer without the cream and the clear. But you certainly can't deny he wouldn't have ever become even a 50 HR guy without them.

[Soul]

Bonds is the worst example to use.

 

He's a top-tier talent way before he started juicing. It's not even an argument.

[MSG T]

PED's don't make you a once in a generation baseball talent

 

Tell that to Bonds who only became once in a generation after he took them. PED's made multiple once in a generation players (Bonds, Sosa, ARod). None of those guys would have been that good without them.

 

Holy smokes are you comically wrong about this.

 

No he's not. All of those guys would have been really good players but none of them, especially Bonds and his comically ridiculous seasons, would have put up anywhere near the numbers they did. I mean seriously, go look at the post in another thread talking about Rich Aurilia hitting 37 HRs and the top 9 guys in the MVP voting averaging 49 HRs.

 

But Bonds was ridiculously good pre-blow up period.

 

 

11 straight seasons at 6.0 bWAR or higher, 7 of them 8.0 or higher. That's ridiculously [expletive] good.

[Sammy Sofa]

PED's don't make you a once in a generation baseball talent

 

Tell that to Bonds who only became once in a generation after he took them. PED's made multiple once in a generation players (Bonds, Sosa, ARod). None of those guys would have been that good without them.

 

Holy smokes are you comically wrong about this.

 

What's comical are the number of home runs that Bonds and Sosa hit right when they began taking PED's. The frequency of their homers is directly caused by taking them.

 

You have no idea when Sosa started using PEDs. We do, however, know when Bonds started; after that year he had an insane season where he hit 73. His other near-full PED years? 49, 46, 45, 45. Some other Bonds' HR totals pre-1999? 33, 34, 46, 37, 33, 42, 40, 37.

[Sammy Sofa]

PED's don't make you a once in a generation baseball talent

 

Tell that to Bonds who only became once in a generation after he took them. PED's made multiple once in a generation players (Bonds, Sosa, ARod). None of those guys would have been that good without them. Bonds and ARod were going to be clean HOFers, but we'll never know for sure.

 

Oh my.

 

This is delicious.

 

Bonds' line through 1998:

 

.290 .411 .556 .966

 

164 OPS+

 

411 HR

 

99.6 WAR

 

Yeah, I think we know for sure.

 

I think Bonds is a tough example to use because he was so good all around and would have obviously been a sure fire HOFer without the cream and the clear. But you certainly can't deny he wouldn't have ever become even a 50 HR guy without them.

 

He only hit 50 or more HR in a single season once in his entire career. Next highest? 46, in 1993; well before 1999.

[Guest]

PED's don't make you a once in a generation baseball talent

 

Tell that to Bonds who only became once in a generation after he took them. PED's made multiple once in a generation players (Bonds, Sosa, ARod). None of those guys would have been that good without them.

 

Holy smokes are you comically wrong about this.

 

No he's not. All of those guys would have been really good players but none of them, especially Bonds and his comically ridiculous seasons, would have put up anywhere near the numbers they did. I mean seriously, go look at the post in another thread talking about Rich Aurilia hitting 37 HRs and the top 9 guys in the MVP voting averaging 49 HRs.

 

He's very, very wrong.

 

- Sosa was not a once in a generation player even with PEDs. He had 2 seasons with > 6 fWAR, and even in the best 4 year stretch of his career he was 3rd in WAR, barely in front of the Joneses in Atlanta.

 

- Bonds and Rodriguez are obviously generational talents without PEDs. Bonds had 11 seasons of greater than 7 WAR before he hit 73 HR. ELEVEN. Rodriguez put up 9 WAR as a rail thin 21 year old.

 

- If everyone is using PEDs to the point that everyone's hitting X HR like in the Rich Aurilia example, then all the league-relative measures aren't inflated and Bonds and A-Rod are still incredible talents.

 

If you think that PED use taints the game and that users should be punished, whatever, I've made a conscious effort to avoid Award/HOF debates. But you can be of that mind without the insane revisionist history that PEDs turned them from good player to megastar.

[Sammy Sofa]

And McGwire was a freak who was going to hit a bajillion home runs regardless of what he used.

[Wilson A2000]

Hank Aaron thinks PED abusers damaged the game. And so do the baseball writers. The veteran's committee will agree too. Most everyone but baseball forum posters think this.

[Sammy Sofa]

Hank Aaron thinks PED abusers damaged the game. And so do the baseball writers. The veteran's committee will agree too. Most everyone but baseball forum posters think this.

 

They sure didn't think it when it was going on and nobody said anything. Everyone loved it at the time.

 

And it's not all that unlikely that Aaron was using, too.

[MSG T]

Hank Aaron thinks PED abusers damaged the game. And so do the baseball writers. The veteran's committee will agree too. Most everyone but baseball forum posters think this.

 

 

Hank Aaron used [expletive] PEDs. Regularly.

[Formerly Snayke]

The only way someone could think Bonds only became a once-in-generation talent once he started roiding is if they started watching in 2001.

[Wilson A2000]

And McGwire was a freak who was going to hit a bajillion home runs regardless of what he used.

 

He helped start the 80's-mid 2000 steroid era in Oakland. We'll never know how many home runs he would have hit. He was dirty early on.

 

What kind of player was Sosa before roids? Occasional All Star? Now he has all time great stats, far above HOF stats and once in a generation player. But yeah they don't do much. I mean he has to swing the bat right?

[Sammy Sofa]

Hank Aaron thinks PED abusers damaged the game. And so do the baseball writers. The veteran's committee will agree too. Most everyone but baseball forum posters think this.

 

 

Hank Aaron used [expletive] PEDs. Regularly.

 

Dude, everyone knows steroids were totally invented in 1993 and NOBODY EVER USED ANYTHING BEFORE THAT EVER.

[Wilson A2000]

Hank Aaron thinks PED abusers damaged the game. And so do the baseball writers. The veteran's committee will agree too. Most everyone but baseball forum posters think this.

 

 

Hank Aaron used [expletive] PEDs. Regularly.

 

Were they legal? Could anyone legally use them?

[Banedon]

Hank Aaron thinks PED abusers damaged the game. And so do the baseball writers. The veteran's committee will agree too. Most everyone but baseball forum posters think this.

 

All of those people come at this from a different angle. Writers look at it as a story, and something to be outraged about. Hank Aaron and the Veteran's Committee look at it from a former player standpoint, where not doing it their way equals not doing it the "right" way.

 

From a fan's point of view though, that era was fantastic. I was never more interested in baseball than 1998-2004.