Ryan Braun suspended for rest of 2013

[mul21]

Hank Aaron thinks PED abusers damaged the game. And so do the baseball writers. The veteran's committee will agree too. Most everyone but baseball forum posters think this.

 

You're on a very slippery slope when you're using examples of past players who almost certainly were using greenies like they were candy.

 

And TT, you're certainly correct about you examples, I guess I was looking at it in a much more general sense (i.e. not really specific players) with a pretty heavy emphasis on HRs and not WAR numbers.

[Cubswin11]

Hank Aaron thinks PED abusers damaged the game. And so do the baseball writers. The veteran's committee will agree too. Most everyone but baseball forum posters think this.

There's less than 20 intelligent minds in those two groups of people so I don't really care WTF they think. And Aaron was a PED user himself.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Cubswin11

[Guest]

What kind of player was Sosa before roids? Occasional All Star? Now he has all time great stats, far above HOF stats and once in a generation player. But yeah they don't do much. I mean he has to swing the bat right?

 

Sosa just barely beats out Mike Piazza for 10th in most WAR accrued during the years of Sosa's career, even when excluding his disastrous 2005 & 2007. He hit a bunch of home runs and became very popular. Don't confuse that with actually being a consistently great baseball player.

[mul21]

Hank Aaron thinks PED abusers damaged the game. And so do the baseball writers. The veteran's committee will agree too. Most everyone but baseball forum posters think this.

 

 

Hank Aaron used [expletive] PEDs. Regularly.

 

Were they legal? Could anyone legally use them?

 

Um, no, amphetamines have certainly been illegal for a very long time. Just like steroids have been for a very long time.

[Sammy Sofa]

And McGwire was a freak who was going to hit a bajillion home runs regardless of what he used.

 

He helped start the 80's-mid 2000 steroid era in Oakland. We'll never know how many home runs he would have hit. He was dirty early on.

 

What kind of player was Sosa before roids? Occasional All Star? Now he has all time great stats, far above HOF stats and once in a generation player. But yeah they don't do much. I mean he has to swing the bat right?

 

Sosa doesn't have all-time great stats outside of his home run numbers. And again, you don't know when Sosa started using. As TT pointed out, Sosa doesn't have "once in a generation" numbers. Like a lot of these guys, he had one insane year where he had a 10+ WAR and then a lot of good to very good seasons. Unless you think home runs alone make a player amazing, your argument broken from the get-go.

[Wilson A2000]

The type of performance enhancing benefits greenies gave and BALCO gave are world's apart

[Cubswin11]

 

- If everyone is using PEDs to the point that everyone's hitting X HR like in the Rich Aurilia example, then all the league-relative measures aren't inflated and Bonds and A-Rod are still incredible talents.

 

This

[mul21]

The type of performance enhancing benefits greenies gave and BALCO gave are world's apart

 

Is that why they've banned amphetamines as part of the drug program and why we've continued to see a precipitous drop in offensive numbers since they were banned even after steroids were pretty well gone?

[Sammy Sofa]

Hank Aaron thinks PED abusers damaged the game. And so do the baseball writers. The veteran's committee will agree too. Most everyone but baseball forum posters think this.

 

You're on a very slippery slope when you're using examples of past players who almost certainly were using greenies like they were candy.

 

Greenies at the very least. PEDs as we know them have basically existed since WW2, and really took off in sports in the 60's. That people willfully act like PEDs outside of speed weren't around prior to the late 80's are just flat out wrong.

[jersey cubs fan]

The type of performance enhancing benefits greenies gave and BALCO gave are world's apart

 

Cheatin' in the good ole days was just boys being boys, cheatin' nowadays is just wrong.

[Wilson A2000]

What kind of player was Sosa before roids? Occasional All Star? Now he has all time great stats, far above HOF stats and once in a generation player. But yeah they don't do much. I mean he has to swing the bat right?

 

Sosa just barely beats out Mike Piazza for 10th in most WAR accrued during the years of Sosa's career, even when excluding his disastrous 2005 & 2007. He hit a bunch of home runs and became very popular. Don't confuse that with actually being a consistently great baseball player.

 

Where does his WAR line up with Piazza's when Sosa was on roids? Point is Sosa only has HOF stats due to roids. He became once in a generation directly due to them.

[mul21]

 

- If everyone is using PEDs to the point that everyone's hitting X HR like in the Rich Aurilia example, then all the league-relative measures aren't inflated and Bonds and A-Rod are still incredible talents.

 

This

 

I have trouble with this in a general sense. You are going to have an increase, but is it completely uniform across the board or is it going to be more of an increase at the top end and then tail off significantly with the fringy talent and guys who aren't using?

[Sammy Sofa]

And McGwire was a freak who was going to hit a bajillion home runs regardless of what he used.

 

He helped start the 80's-mid 2000 steroid era in Oakland. We'll never know how many home runs he would have hit. He was dirty early on.

 

He was a home run-hitting beast from high school on:

 

http://www.mcgwire.com/stats.html

[Formerly Snayke]

I can't believe someone asked if AMPHETAMINES were legal.

[Wilson A2000]

Anyone who hits 600+ home runs is once in a generation

[Wilson A2000]

And McGwire was a freak who was going to hit a bajillion home runs regardless of what he used.

 

He helped start the 80's-mid 2000 steroid era in Oakland. We'll never know how many home runs he would have hit. He was dirty early on.

 

He was a home run-hitting beast from high school on:

 

http://www.mcgwire.com/stats.html

 

A lot of people were

[Sammy Sofa]

What kind of player was Sosa before roids? Occasional All Star? Now he has all time great stats, far above HOF stats and once in a generation player. But yeah they don't do much. I mean he has to swing the bat right?

 

Sosa just barely beats out Mike Piazza for 10th in most WAR accrued during the years of Sosa's career, even when excluding his disastrous 2005 & 2007. He hit a bunch of home runs and became very popular. Don't confuse that with actually being a consistently great baseball player.

 

Where does his WAR line up with Piazza's when Sosa was on roids? Point is Sosa only has HOF stats due to roids. He became once in a generation directly due to them.

 

How do you know this? You keep throwing it out there like you know for sure how many home runs he hit with and without them. AND HE WASN'T A ONCE IN A GENERATION TALENT. STOP SAYING THAT.

[Sammy Sofa]

And McGwire was a freak who was going to hit a bajillion home runs regardless of what he used.

 

He helped start the 80's-mid 2000 steroid era in Oakland. We'll never know how many home runs he would have hit. He was dirty early on.

 

He was a home run-hitting beast from high school on:

 

http://www.mcgwire.com/stats.html

 

A lot of people were

 

So your theory is that Mark McGwire was on PEDs most of his life and only hit home runs because of them.

[Wilson A2000]

And McGwire was a freak who was going to hit a bajillion home runs regardless of what he used.

 

He helped start the 80's-mid 2000 steroid era in Oakland. We'll never know how many home runs he would have hit. He was dirty early on.

 

He was a home run-hitting beast from high school on:

 

http://www.mcgwire.com/stats.html

 

A lot of people were and didn't pan out. We'll never know about McGwire because he didn't let us.

[Guest]

What kind of player was Sosa before roids? Occasional All Star? Now he has all time great stats, far above HOF stats and once in a generation player. But yeah they don't do much. I mean he has to swing the bat right?

 

Sosa just barely beats out Mike Piazza for 10th in most WAR accrued during the years of Sosa's career, even when excluding his disastrous 2005 & 2007. He hit a bunch of home runs and became very popular. Don't confuse that with actually being a consistently great baseball player.

 

Where does his WAR line up with Piazza's when Sosa was on roids? Point is Sosa only has HOF stats due to roids. He became once in a generation directly due to them.

 

I already told you that. Even in the best 4 year stretch of Sosa's career, he was 3rd in WAR(5th if you include pitchers) and barely in front of Chipper and Andruw. Sosa was never a once in a generation player or a sure-fire HOF statistically, with or without PEDs.

[Wilson A2000]

And McGwire was a freak who was going to hit a bajillion home runs regardless of what he used.

 

He helped start the 80's-mid 2000 steroid era in Oakland. We'll never know how many home runs he would have hit. He was dirty early on.

 

He was a home run-hitting beast from high school on:

 

http://www.mcgwire.com/stats.html

 

A lot of people were

 

So your theory is that Mark McGwire was on PEDs most of his life and only hit home runs because of them.

 

We know McGwire took them early in his career. I think only hit the high number he did because of them. You know, like everyone else who hit that many.

[Guest]

Anyone who hits 600+ home runs is once in a generation

 

It's so rare that Sosa managed to make it to 5th place among hitters in his era!

 

ONCE IN A GENERATION

[Wilson A2000]

Based on Sosa's numbers, if he was clean there is no way a 600+ home run guy is not getting in Cooperstown relatively low WAR or not. Sosa got 200 homers due to PED's and he's wasn't going to have HOF numbers without them.

[Wilson A2000]

Anyone who hits 600+ home runs is once in a generation

 

It's so rare that Sosa managed to make it to 5th place among hitters in his era!

 

ONCE IN A GENERATION

 

Roids made multiple once in a generation players obviously

[Cubswin11]

Based on Sosa's numbers, if he was clean there is no way a 600+ home run guy is not getting in Cooperstown relatively low WAR or not.Sosa got 200 homers due to PED's and he's wasn't going to have HOF numbers without them.

How can you possibly put a number on this?