Ryan Braun suspended for rest of 2013

[Sammy Sofa]

I said he was HOF. I just don't know about once in a generation for Bonds.

 

How do you not know? Look at the numbers.

[Guest]

Based on Sosa's numbers, if he was clean there is no way a 600+ home run guy is not getting in Cooperstown relatively low WAR or not.Sosa got 200 homers due to PED's and he's wasn't going to have HOF numbers without them.

How can you possibly put a number on this?

 

Statistical averages. You don't leap in your late 20's or early 30's like that.

 

So you mean like if a guy put up a HR total that was one off his career high at age 35 and then set a new career high at age 37? Or had his two best OBP, SLG and OPS seasons at ages 37 and 39 (and best OPS+ at 37)? Or had his best four AB/HR ratios at ages 39, 37, 35 and 38?

 

Because Hank Aaron did all of those things.

 

What were Bonds's HR's per at bat from before 1998 and after? I would like to see that against what Aaron's were from the years before his late life surge to after it.

 

Aaron through age 34: 17.4 AB/HR

Aaron after age 34: 14.2 AB/HR (it's 12.3 when taking off the last two years when he totally fell off)

 

Bonds through 1998: 16.1

Bonds after 1998: 9.2

[Wilson A2000]

Yes Aaron's numbers were high at the end. But I think that is just rare. Aaron said he took greenies once. Because Bonds was on roids, we don't know if he could have done the same clean. But the jump in home runs is certainly caused by PED's.

[Sammy Sofa]

Wow, he said he only took them once?!? There's no possible reason why he'd lie about using PEDs!

 

And old players with power surges: all on the juice except for Hank Aaron. Why? JUST BECAUSE, DAMMIT.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Sammy Sofa

[Wilson A2000]

Based on Sosa's numbers, if he was clean there is no way a 600+ home run guy is not getting in Cooperstown relatively low WAR or not. Sosa got 200 homers due to PED's and he's wasn't going to have HOF numbers without them.

 

You are showing a profound misunderstanding of how comparisons work. Eras change and circumstances change. People took steroids for a while, the mound used to be higher, black and foreign players were not allowed to play for decades. Fortunately we can put those circumstances in context instead of making arbitrary distinctions on what makes a HOF player across all eras, and we're all better for it. I'd suggest joining with that movement.

 

If you get 500 and are clean you are most likely in, era or not. 600 no doubt. Bad argument.

 

YOU YOURSELF ARE EXPRESSING DOUBT AND SOSA IS NOT IN THE HALL OF FAME.

 

Because he was dirty. He doesn't get 500 clean, let alone 600.

 

So to sum up:

 

- Sosa is a once in a generation player because he hit 600 HR, and wouldn't have gotten to 600 HR without PEDs

 

- If you get to 600 HR you are in the HOF no doubt, regardless of whether you played in the PED era or not.

 

- Sosa isn't in the HOF because he did PEDs, and wouldn't have gotten to 600 HR without them.

 

This logic is bad, and you should feel bad.

 

No because I clearly said that the second point is if you play in the PED era and are CLEAN many times

[Sammy Sofa]

How do you know who was clean and when?

[Wilson A2000]

Wow, he said he only took them once?!? There's no possible reason why he'd lie about using PEDs!

 

And old players with power surges: all on the juice except for Hank Aaron. Why? JUST BECAUSE, DAMMIT.

 

We have the physical evidence on Bonds, not Aaron. I give people the benefit of the doubt. Same for Pujols.

[Cubswin11]

How do you know who was clean and when?

Hank Aaron was because, well, because. His last career uptick was just a statistical outlier, everyone else with the same career track was a USER.

[Sammy Sofa]

Wow, he said he only took them once?!? There's no possible reason why he'd lie about using PEDs!

 

And old players with power surges: all on the juice except for Hank Aaron. Why? JUST BECAUSE, DAMMIT.

 

We have the physical evidence on Bonds, not Aaron. I give people the benefit of the doubt. Same for Pujols.

 

You have no "physical evidence" because nobody was looking and testing, yet you've had people in the game talk about how PED usage goes back decades.

[Guest]

No because I clearly said that the second point is if you play in the PED era and are CLEAN many times

 

Your claim is that taking PEDs made him a "once in a generation player".

 

Statistically he's not a HOF player, and he sure isn't in the HOF as we speak despite being eligible. And without PEDs that argument gets a lot worse, as you mention.

 

So how is it that PEDs made Sosa into a generational talent, when his numbers don't justify it, and when popular perception(HOF) doesn't put him on that plane either? Or is it that being a generational talent isn't subject to the obvious consideration of context that you're using when determining his HOF-worthiness?

[Wilson A2000]

Wow, he said he only took them once?!? There's no possible reason why he'd lie about using PEDs!

 

And old players with power surges: all on the juice except for Hank Aaron. Why? JUST BECAUSE, DAMMIT.

 

We have the physical evidence on Bonds, not Aaron. I give people the benefit of the doubt. Same for Pujols.

 

You have no "physical evidence" because nobody was looking and testing, yet you've had people in the game talk about how PED usage goes back decades.

 

Of course. But has anyone accused Aaron and seen him take them? No, so I give him the benefit. We know ARod took them. I'm not keeping anyone out of the HOF with no evidence, steroid era or not.

[Wilson A2000]

No because I clearly said that the second point is if you play in the PED era and are CLEAN many times

 

Your claim is that taking PEDs made him a "once in a generation player".

 

Statistically he's not a HOF player, and he sure isn't in the HOF as we speak despite being eligible. And without PEDs that argument gets a lot worse, as you mention.

 

So how is it that PEDs made Sosa into a generational talent, when his numbers don't justify it, and when popular perception(HOF) doesn't put him on that plane either? Or is it that being a generational talent isn't subject to the obvious consideration of context that you're using when determining his HOF-worthiness?

 

Nope, because one stat, 600+ homers, is getting him in the HOF if clean. That's all that matters for voters.

[Guest]

No because I clearly said that the second point is if you play in the PED era and are CLEAN many times

 

Your claim is that taking PEDs made him a "once in a generation player".

 

Statistically he's not a HOF player, and he sure isn't in the HOF as we speak despite being eligible. And without PEDs that argument gets a lot worse, as you mention.

 

So how is it that PEDs made Sosa into a generational talent, when his numbers don't justify it, and when popular perception(HOF) doesn't put him on that plane either? Or is it that being a generational talent isn't subject to the obvious consideration of context that you're using when determining his HOF-worthiness?

 

Nope, because one stat, 600+ homers, is getting him in the HOF if clean. That's all that matters for voters.

 

So your point is that if Sosa hit 600 HR without PEDs in an era where PED use was rampant, he would have made it into the Hall of Fame.

 

Stay hot.

[mul21]

Wow, he said he only took them once?!? There's no possible reason why he'd lie about using PEDs!

 

And old players with power surges: all on the juice except for Hank Aaron. Why? JUST BECAUSE, DAMMIT.

 

We have the physical evidence on Bonds, not Aaron. I give people the benefit of the doubt. Same for Pujols.

 

You have no "physical evidence" because nobody was looking and testing, yet you've had people in the game talk about how PED usage goes back decades.

 

Of course. But has anyone accused Aaron and seen him take them? No, so I give him the benefit. We know ARod took them. I'm not keeping anyone out of the HOF with no evidence, steroid era or not.

 

You said yourself he admitted to taking them once and we all know that once you go green you never get clean.

 

[Sammy Sofa]

Wow, he said he only took them once?!? There's no possible reason why he'd lie about using PEDs!

 

And old players with power surges: all on the juice except for Hank Aaron. Why? JUST BECAUSE, DAMMIT.

 

We have the physical evidence on Bonds, not Aaron. I give people the benefit of the doubt. Same for Pujols.

 

You have no "physical evidence" because nobody was looking and testing, yet you've had people in the game talk about how PED usage goes back decades.

 

Of course. But has anyone accused Aaron and seen him take them? No, so I give him the benefit. We know ARod took them. I'm not keeping anyone out of the HOF with no evidence, steroid era or not.

 

You've had people on the same team as him who admitted to using them:

 

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2005-05-03-steroids-house_x.htm

 

You have him having a bizarre, late career power surge, plus two teammates also having outlier power surge seasons when they played with him:

 

http://grg51.typepad.com/steroid_nation/2007/02/hammerin_hank_a.html

 

Basically it wouldn't be a surprise at all to find out he used them. But nobody is going to come out and accuse him of it because even if they were right there there's absolutely no proof. They'd be instantly made a villain and would have no argument but their word.

[Cubswin11]

Wow, he said he only took them once?!? There's no possible reason why he'd lie about using PEDs!

 

And old players with power surges: all on the juice except for Hank Aaron. Why? JUST BECAUSE, DAMMIT.

 

We have the physical evidence on Bonds, not Aaron. I give people the benefit of the doubt. Same for Pujols.

 

You have no "physical evidence" because nobody was looking and testing, yet you've had people in the game talk about how PED usage goes back decades.

 

Of course. But has anyone accused Aaron and seen him take them? No, so I give him the benefit. We know ARod took them. I'm not keeping anyone out of the HOF with no evidence, steroid era or not.

What about the evidence in the numbers of having a later career power surge?

[Wilson A2000]

Similar Batters to Sosa

 

Jim Thome (862)

Mike Schmidt (858) *

Reggie Jackson (841) *

Ken Griffey (830)

Harmon Killebrew (822) *

Eddie Mathews (822) *

Mickey Mantle (821) *

Willie Stargell (820) *

Gary Sheffield (814)

Willie McCovey (807) *

* - Signifies Hall of Famer

 

He's a clear HOFer if clean

[Wilson A2000]

Wow, he said he only took them once?!? There's no possible reason why he'd lie about using PEDs!

 

And old players with power surges: all on the juice except for Hank Aaron. Why? JUST BECAUSE, DAMMIT.

 

We have the physical evidence on Bonds, not Aaron. I give people the benefit of the doubt. Same for Pujols.

 

You have no "physical evidence" because nobody was looking and testing, yet you've had people in the game talk about how PED usage goes back decades.

 

Of course. But has anyone accused Aaron and seen him take them? No, so I give him the benefit. We know ARod took them. I'm not keeping anyone out of the HOF with no evidence, steroid era or not.

What about the evidence in the numbers of having a later career power surge?

 

No, gotta be physical evidence. What Aaron did is very rare. What Bonds did was cheating.

[Cubswin11]

Similar Batters to Sosa

 

Jim Thome (862)

Mike Schmidt (858) *

Reggie Jackson (841) *

Ken Griffey (830)

Harmon Killebrew (822) *

Eddie Mathews (822) *

Mickey Mantle (821) *

Willie Stargell (820) *

Gary Sheffield (814)

Willie McCovey (807) *

* - Signifies Hall of Famer

 

He's a clear HOFer if clean

But you are saying PED's got him there so if he's clean he's not there because you said PED's did all the work or a good majority of it (you said roughly 1/3 of HR were attributed to PED's, so he hit 400 "cleanly" which means he's not a HOFer). It's not news to anyone here that if you get to 600HR cleanly you are in the HOF.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Cubswin11

[Wilson A2000]

Wow, he said he only took them once?!? There's no possible reason why he'd lie about using PEDs!

 

And old players with power surges: all on the juice except for Hank Aaron. Why? JUST BECAUSE, DAMMIT.

 

We have the physical evidence on Bonds, not Aaron. I give people the benefit of the doubt. Same for Pujols.

 

You have no "physical evidence" because nobody was looking and testing, yet you've had people in the game talk about how PED usage goes back decades.

 

Of course. But has anyone accused Aaron and seen him take them? No, so I give him the benefit. We know ARod took them. I'm not keeping anyone out of the HOF with no evidence, steroid era or not.

 

You've had people on the same team as him who admitted to using them:

 

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2005-05-03-steroids-house_x.htm

 

You have him having a bizarre, late career power surge, plus two teammates also having outlier power surge seasons when they played with him:

 

http://grg51.typepad.com/steroid_nation/2007/02/hammerin_hank_a.html

 

Basically it wouldn't be a surprise at all to find out he used them. But nobody is going to come out and accuse him of it because even if they were right there there's absolutely no proof. They'd be instantly made a villain and would have no argument but their word.

 

If Aaron said he did it, I would be as consistent as I would with Bonds and Sosa. I'm not letting someone's word alone decide something this big.

[Clem Fandango]

Similar Batters to Sosa

 

Jim Thome (862)

Mike Schmidt (858) *

Reggie Jackson (841) *

Ken Griffey (830)

Harmon Killebrew (822) *

Eddie Mathews (822) *

Mickey Mantle (821) *

Willie Stargell (820) *

Gary Sheffield (814)

Willie McCovey (807) *

* - Signifies Hall of Famer

 

He's a clear HOFer if clean

 

What?!?! Those are based on the numbers he accumulated WITH steroids. By saying if he was clean he'd be a HOF'er based on that is completely wrong.

 

EDIT: If you want to use 1998 as the starting point of his steroid abuse, then here are his Top 10 similar batters through his age 28 season (1997):

 

1) Tony Conigliaro

2) Dale Murphy

3) Reggie Jackson

4) Jim Wynn

5) Jeff Boroughs

6) Roger Maris

7) Jesse Barfield

8) Dave Winfield

9) Bobby bonds

10) Jack Clark

 

Basedon that, if he remained clean, he might've been a solid, borderline HOF'er at best, player.

Edited July 24, 2013 by The Logan

[Wilson A2000]

Similar Batters to Sosa

 

Jim Thome (862)

Mike Schmidt (858) *

Reggie Jackson (841) *

Ken Griffey (830)

Harmon Killebrew (822) *

Eddie Mathews (822) *

Mickey Mantle (821) *

Willie Stargell (820) *

Gary Sheffield (814)

Willie McCovey (807) *

* - Signifies Hall of Famer

 

He's a clear HOFer if clean

But you are saying PED's got him there so if he's clean he's not there because you said PED's did all the work or a good majority of it.

 

Exactly. But Trans I thought said he didn't have the numbers to get in not even caring he is dirty. Did I misunderstand him?

Edited July 24, 2013 by Wilson A2000

[Sammy Sofa]

No, gotta be physical evidence. What Aaron did is very rare. What Bonds did was cheating.

 

So you shouldn't doubt any performance prior to 2002.

[Sammy Sofa]

If Aaron said he did it, I would be as consistent as I would with Bonds and Sosa. I'm not letting someone's word alone decide something this big.

 

Because you're approaching this with all the critical thinking ability of a child.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Wilson is winning in this thread but not in the way he thinks he is.