Ryan Braun suspended for rest of 2013

[Sammy Sofa]

It wasn't just me. The Fainaru-Wada SI article states that Bonds's teamates knew something was up after 1998 when he put on 20 lbs of pure muscle even though he was working his butt off for years before that. People saw the same thing with Sosa.

 

The point is that "looking for huge guys" isn't an accurate way of guessing who was and is using PEDs. Not everyone hulks out.

 

When do you think Sosa started using?

 

 

Sure, not everyone does. But Bonds did. That is really not debatable.

 

Nobody has disagreed with that point, so I have no idea what you think you're arguing.

 

Sosa most likely started at least between 1997-1998.

 

So his power and build increase from 1993-1997 was just one of those things?

[Sammy Sofa]

Right, and not all of the drugs you're decrying were illegal at that point, and tons of the players using the "banned" ones were getting prescriptions.

 

I don't think Bonds, Sosa, or ARod used a legal PED alone. There was always something illegal they were taking in addition to any legal ones. I don't have a problem if you have a prescription. I don't think they did.

 

There's so much wrong with this I don't even know where to begin.

[Wilson A2000]

It wasn't just me. The Fainaru-Wada SI article states that Bonds's teamates knew something was up after 1998 when he put on 20 lbs of pure muscle even though he was working his butt off for years before that. People saw the same thing with Sosa.

 

The point is that "looking for huge guys" isn't an accurate way of guessing who was and is using PEDs. Not everyone hulks out.

 

When do you think Sosa started using?

 

 

Sure, not everyone does. But Bonds did. That is really not debatable.

 

Nobody has disagreed with that point, so I have no idea what you think you're arguing.

 

Sosa most likely started at least between 1997-1998.

 

So his power and build increase from 1993-1997 was just one of those things?

 

I never said everyone gets huge after PED's, but you asked me how I knew Bonds got big and I said 25 lbs of muscle in one offseason and that most everyone in the Giants organization put two and two together was plenty of evidence.

 

When Sosa went from 36 to 66 home runs and had gotten huge rather quickly, something was up. I said he could have started PED's before 1998. Probably did. But I'm certain he was on them in 1998.

[Wilson A2000]

Right, and not all of the drugs you're decrying were illegal at that point, and tons of the players using the "banned" ones were getting prescriptions.

 

I don't think Bonds, Sosa, or ARod used a legal PED alone. There was always something illegal they were taking in addition to any legal ones. I don't have a problem if you have a prescription. I don't think they did.

 

There's so much wrong with this I don't even know where to begin.

 

You could have stopped posting when jersey did. But feel free to correct me and start a thread on evolution too.

[Sammy Sofa]

I like how you talk about the Giants like NOBODY ELSE on the team could possibly have been using and they were all surprised or aghast once they put everything together.

 

Look, forget about Bonds; he's an extreme outlier in pretty much every category we're talking about, including looking like a monster. I don't know why you're so hung up on it, but just move on. Probably a good 90%+ of PED users never bulked up to a suspect level.

[Wilson A2000]

I like how you talk about the Giants like NOBODY ELSE on the team could possibly have been using and they were all surprised or aghast once they put everything together.

 

Look, forget about Bonds; he's an extreme outlier in pretty much every category we're talking about, including looking like a monster. I don't know why you're so hung up on it, but just move on. Probably a good 90%+ of PED users never bulked up to a suspect level.

 

Probably. But you don't know why me (and a lot of other people) are hung up on Bonds breaking two of sports most important records and doing it while cheating? That's what this has always been about.

 

I'm OK with moving on.

[SouthSideRyan]

It wasn't just me. The Fainaru-Wada SI article states that Bonds's teamates knew something was up after 1998 when he put on 20 lbs of pure muscle even though he was working his butt off for years before that. People saw the same thing with Sosa.

 

The point is that "looking for huge guys" isn't an accurate way of guessing who was and is using PEDs. Not everyone hulks out.

 

When do you think Sosa started using?

 

 

Sure, not everyone does. But Bonds did. That is really not debatable.

 

Nobody has disagreed with that point, so I have no idea what you think you're arguing.

 

Sosa most likely started at least between 1997-1998.

 

So his power and build increase from 1993-1997 was just one of those things?

 

I never said everyone gets huge after PED's, but you asked me how I knew Bonds got big and I said 25 lbs of muscle in one offseason and that most everyone in the Giants organization put two and two together was plenty of evidence.

 

When Sosa went from 36 to 66 home runs and had gotten huge rather quickly, something was up. I said he could have started PED's before 1998. Probably did. But I'm certain he was on them in 1998.

 

Of course, Sosa was on pace for 52 HRs in '96...And '97 was his worst HR rate since he was 24 yrs old in 1993

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

They were illegal in 1991, there were just no penalties until 2003 I thought

 

Wait, you think ALL "steroids" were made illegal in 1991?

 

Made illegal in baseball those that were already illegal by federal law. "The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited.... This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs ... including steroids or prescription drugs for which the individual in possession of the drug does not have a prescription."

 

So, what if Sosa took his roids while in DR prior to them being tested for by MLB. What if he got a prescription there?

[Wilson A2000]

Is that legal under MLB rules? I just don't think we have to try that hard to excuse cheaters. Edited July 25, 2013 by Wilson A2000

[Guest]

There is no corroborating evidence that he did PED's other than the one time he said he did.

 

LOL.

[Wilson A2000]

There is no corroborating evidence that he did PED's other than the one time he said he did.

 

LOL.

 

What shred of evidence do you have that this is not the case? Absolutely nothing.

[Wilson A2000]

All this to try to protect steroid era players. They don't deserve that. What happened from 1998-now is unprecedented.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Is that legal under MLB rules? I just don't think we have to try that hard to excuse cheaters.

 

My point is the only evidence we have against Sosa is a heresay report in the NYT that he was on the 2003 list. While he certainly looks to have the body of a user, I'm not sure that is air tight proof of anything. Furthermore, since MLB began testing, Sosa (and many others who have been connecting to PED use) were never implicated by a positve test or anything else. Sure, one can point to the 1991 rule, but that rule is quite ambiguous and without testing, it was never enforced.

 

You made legality an issue, and steroids at the time were not illegal in the DR.

 

My take is this. It is certainly fair and right to punish those who are caught under the current system of testing, but those prior to the current system weren't really breaking any rules, and then to romanticize players from previous eras who used whatever means available to them is quite hyporcritical.

[SouthSideRyan]

What happened from 1998-now is unprecedented.

 

As long as you don't include what happened throughout the 20s and into the early 30s

[SouthSideRyan]

There is no corroborating evidence that he did PED's other than the one time he said he did.

 

LOL.

 

What shred of evidence do you have that this is not the case? Absolutely nothing.

 

Look, if you guys can't prove this negative, I don't know how you expect Wilson to take you seriously.

[Wilson A2000]

They weren't really breaking any rules? If by 'any' you mean the rule that says don't take steroids then they were. I'm not romanticizing anyone. It's not romanticizing to say we have no reason to think Hank took amphetamines outside of the one time he said he did which was legal federally and in baseball until 1971.

[SouthSideRyan]

What happened from 1998-now is unprecedented.

 

As long as you don't include what happened throughout the 20s and into the early 30s

 

Or in the late 60s when apparently the pitchers were all roided up.

[illiniguy]

PED's don't make you a once in a generation baseball talent

 

Tell that to Bonds who only became once in a generation after he took them. PED's made multiple once in a generation players (Bonds, Sosa, ARod). None of those guys would have been that good without them.

 

Holy smokes are you comically wrong about this.

 

No he's not. All of those guys would have been really good players but none of them, especially Bonds and his comically ridiculous seasons, would have put up anywhere near the numbers they did. I mean seriously, go look at the post in another thread talking about Rich Aurilia hitting 37 HRs and the top 9 guys in the MVP voting averaging 49 HRs.

 

Bonds would be in the HoF whether he took steroids or not. He was already the best player in baseball.

I'm sure war will prove me wrong on this, but I always thought Griffey was better than bonds as a player. As a hitter it was bonds.

[Wilson A2000]

There is no corroborating evidence that he did PED's other than the one time he said he did.

 

LOL.

 

What shred of evidence do you have that this is not the case? Absolutely nothing.

 

Look, if you guys can't prove this negative, I don't know how you expect Wilson to take you seriously.

 

Don't make a claim if you can't back it up. And you can't back it up.

[SouthSideRyan]

They weren't really breaking any rules? If by 'any' you mean the rule that says don't take steroids then they were. I'm not romanticizing anyone. It's not romanticizing to say we have no reason to think Hank took amphetamines outside of the one time he said he did which was legal federally and in baseball until 1971.

 

Besides all the bogus circumstantial evidence you use to judge players who aren't 100 years old

[Wilson A2000]

What happened from 1998-now is unprecedented.

 

As long as you don't include what happened throughout the 20s and into the early 30s

 

Or in the late 60s when apparently the pitchers were all roided up.

 

There is a reason the most recent era is called the steroid era

[Wilson A2000]

They weren't really breaking any rules? If by 'any' you mean the rule that says don't take steroids then they were. I'm not romanticizing anyone. It's not romanticizing to say we have no reason to think Hank took amphetamines outside of the one time he said he did which was legal federally and in baseball until 1971.

 

Besides all the bogus circumstantial evidence you use to judge players who aren't 100 years old

 

If by circumstantial evidence you mean testing positive for steroids

[illiniguy]

What happened from 1998-now is unprecedented.

 

As long as you don't include what happened throughout the 20s and into the early 30s

 

Or in the late 60s when apparently the pitchers were all roided up.

 

There is a reason the most recent era is called the steroid era

Because ESPN sucks?

[SouthSideRyan]

They weren't really breaking any rules? If by 'any' you mean the rule that says don't take steroids then they were. I'm not romanticizing anyone. It's not romanticizing to say we have no reason to think Hank took amphetamines outside of the one time he said he did which was legal federally and in baseball until 1971.

 

Besides all the bogus circumstantial evidence you use to judge players who aren't 100 years old

 

If by circumstantial evidence you mean testing positive for steroids

 

Something tells me you haven't bought any positive tester's "only one time" or "it was an accident" excuse like you did for St. Henry.

[Wilson A2000]

What happened from 1998-now is unprecedented.

 

As long as you don't include what happened throughout the 20s and into the early 30s

 

Or in the late 60s when apparently the pitchers were all roided up.

 

There is a reason the most recent era is called the steroid era

Because ESPN sucks?

 

No because designer steroids had a far bigger impact on performance than anything before it