MacPhail: Deal is dead (p. 297), stop posting, go outside

[badnews]

Doubtful.

 

I only see one sucker lined up.

 

As for examples, the Renteria one is one that clearly showed this is a stupid deal. Renteria has produced offense at a greater rate than Roberts the last two years. He plays shortstop, a more important position, shortstop vs. second base is like comparing left field vs. center field, and Renteria wasn't caught lying about using steroids. This is crap. You know damn well if a Cubs player was caught using steroids we'd have to sell him for a quarter of the price. But Roberts, no, it's supposed to be like nothing happened, and our price is so fair, no other GM wants to get in on a deal for this magnificent, magnificent player? No way.

 

Look at what the Twins traded originally to get Luis Castillo. Roberts' package = way more. Second base offense does not come at a premium. If you look at what All-Star 2b have been traded for lately, it's nothing like the Roberts' deals. Why don't we factor in Roberts' 2nd half was more like his career numbers, like people do with Eric Byrnes's 2007?

 

This is stupid. There is no reason to trade more for a lesser player at a lesser position.

[CubColtPacer]

Doubtful.

 

I only see one sucker lined up.

 

As for examples, the Renteria one is one that clearly showed this is a stupid deal. Renteria has produced offense at a greater rate than Roberts the last two years. He plays shortstop, a more important position, shortstop vs. second base is like comparing left field vs. center field, and Renteria wasn't caught lying about using steroids. This is crap. You know damn well if a Cubs player was caught using steroids we'd have to sell him for a quarter of the price. But Roberts, no, it's supposed to be like nothing happened, and our price is so fair, no other GM wants to get in on a deal for this magnificent, magnificent player? No way.

 

Look at what the Twins traded originally to get Luis Castillo. Roberts' package = way more. Second base offense does not come at a premium. If you look at what All-Star 2b have been traded for lately, it's nothing like the Roberts' deals. Why don't we factor in Roberts' 2nd half was more like his career numbers, like people do with Eric Byrnes's 2007?

 

This is stupid. There is no reason to trade more for a lesser player at a lesser position.

 

I would argue that the Renteria trade is a huge outlier from what is expected. Renteria was one of the best SS's in the league last year, and is only signed for 1 more season (with an option that supposedly Boston has to pay the buyout if it's declined). The Braves accepted almost nothing for him, and also agreed to pay a 1 million dollar bonus and part of Renteria's salary in 2008.

 

Could the Braves have recieved better offers? Certainly they could have. And yet they made this deal just 24 hours after the World Series ended. That deal cannot set market value, because it screams that Atlanta had to desperately get Renteria off their roster immediately for some strange unknown reason. There's really no other explanation for why a SS that they refused to trade 2 months earlier for the starting pitcher they desperately needed to make the playoffs would suddenly be dumped for nothing, and in a huge rush to do it too.

 

The Luis Castillo trade? I agree with you that the Twins gave up certainly less than what the Cubs did. They traded a good relief prospect and a live arm starter who was trying to harness control problems. At the same time, Castillo never approached what Roberts did 2 of the last 3 seasons (and Roberts was hurt most of 2006). Plus, Castillo was the last piece of a firesale in which the Marlins had to get rid of him whether they got good prospects back or not.

 

As for your other points, they are fair points that I don't have the energy to address at this time of the morning. I don't disagree with much of it other than the conclusion, and the fact that the Cubs are the only team after Roberts (the Indians have also tried to push their way in a couple of times).

 

In your mind, what would be fair value for Roberts? The Orioles aren't desperate to give him away, so the Cubs don't have that working for them. They're going to have to pay full price if they want to get him. So what's a fair full price?

[RedFlash]

This leads me to believe that the Cubs/O's do have a deal in place (rough draft, sorta speak) they're just waiting for the O's to decide Bedard's fate. Because I can think of a few teams that could use Brian Roberts...White Sox, Mets (B4 they reupped Castillo), Padres (before they sign Igauchi), for prime example.

 

I know why - because Hendry is the only one who will pay such a ridiculous price for Roberts.

 

I noticed you mentioned comparables at second base that were traded that got worse packages.

 

Can you help me figure out who those are? Second basemen who have had one great year, one very good year, and one average year over the last 3? Second basemen who still have 2 years left on their contract at a reasonable rate? Second basemen who are in the late prime of their career?

 

Now I don't want for you to read the last paragraph and think that I believe that Roberts is this amazing player. He's not. Quality 2nd basemen at this stage of their career just don't get traded very often though, and I'm having a hard time finding any comparable situation for the Roberts deal within the last 5 years, let alone the last 3 years. Maybe I'm missing some obvious ones, but I just can't find any.

 

All I was saying, and I hope people got it is that there were plenty of teams that had needs for 2B, and yet all you heard about Roberts was to the Cubs....outside of a burp from the Indians. Some decided to keep current options (Mets) and others went another direction (Padres) In other words...either those teams did not believe Roberts did not believe would become available, and those teams felt MacPhail may have already has mind set up to whom who would deal with for Roberts. Now that is just speculation on my part.

[17 Seconds]

Doubtful.

 

I only see one sucker lined up.

 

As for examples, the Renteria one is one that clearly showed this is a stupid deal. Renteria has produced offense at a greater rate than Roberts the last two years. He plays shortstop, a more important position, shortstop vs. second base is like comparing left field vs. center field, and Renteria wasn't caught lying about using steroids. This is crap. You know damn well if a Cubs player was caught using steroids we'd have to sell him for a quarter of the price. But Roberts, no, it's supposed to be like nothing happened, and our price is so fair, no other GM wants to get in on a deal for this magnificent, magnificent player? No way.

 

Look at what the Twins traded originally to get Luis Castillo. Roberts' package = way more. Second base offense does not come at a premium. If you look at what All-Star 2b have been traded for lately, it's nothing like the Roberts' deals. Why don't we factor in Roberts' 2nd half was more like his career numbers, like people do with Eric Byrnes's 2007?

 

This is stupid. There is no reason to trade more for a lesser player at a lesser position.

 

Are you "andyprattisnotsogood", or do you just steal his material?

[Guest]

Rosenthal was on Outside the Lines on ESPN and he said Bedard to Seattle could be done tonight with Roberts to Cubs to follow soon after... I realize this is all new and unique information, so I thought I'd pass it along.

 

WAIT! STOP THE PRESSES! Are you trying to tell me that a Roberts to Cubs deal is close??

 

Yep. There is a 50/50 chance that a Roberts deal might be done by this time next year. :D

 

Though there's only a 10 percent chance of that happening.

[wrigley23]

the only reason lou/hendry want roberts is because he solves the leadoff issue. He gets on base at about a .380 clip & stole 50 bases last year. Period. They desparately want Soriano out of the leadoff slot. Plain & simple. They view it as critical for the overall success of the offense as anything & I agree w/ them. I'm all for Roberts at the top followed by Fukodome & then Lee, Aram & Soriano. Greene would be another great addition w/ his penchance for power at a low power position. The moves I would make in this order are: Roberts, Nathan & Greene. We clearly missed the boat on Haren as he could have been had cheaply. I'm not a big Burnett fan for health/salary reasons and am not sold on Blanton yet as a top 3 guy.

[Post Count Padder]

Rosenthal was on Outside the Lines on ESPN and he said Bedard to Seattle could be done tonight with Roberts to Cubs to follow soon after... I realize this is all new and unique information, so I thought I'd pass it along.

 

WAIT! STOP THE PRESSES! Are you trying to tell me that a Roberts to Cubs deal is close??

 

Yep. There is a 50/50 chance that a Roberts deal might be done by this time next year. :D

 

Though there's only a 10 percent chance of that happening.

And a 70% chance of AM quitting before it can be completed.

[17 Seconds]

the only reason lou/hendry want roberts is because he solves the leadoff issue. He gets on base at about a .380 clip & stole 50 bases last year. Period. They desparately want Soriano out of the leadoff slot. Plain & simple. They view it as critical for the overall success of the offense as anything & I agree w/ them. I'm all for Roberts at the top followed by Fukodome & then Lee, Aram & Soriano. Greene would be another great addition w/ his penchance for power at a low power position. The moves I would make in this order are: Roberts, Nathan & Greene. We clearly missed the boat on Haren as he could have been had cheaply. I'm not a big Burnett fan for health/salary reasons and am not sold on Blanton yet as a top 3 guy.

 

My brains are all over the ceiling.

[Rob]

I still think it's funny that people think Roberts would bat leadoff.

 

Lou wants to split up the lefties. Putting Roberts at leadoff would not accomplish that. Furthermore, Soriano signed with the understanding that he was our leadoff hitter. Hell, that's how Hendry introduced him at his press conference.

 

Soriano

Roberts

Lee

Ramirez

Fukudome

 

That's your front five, if we acquire Roberts. The rest depends on if it costs us Pie or not.

[17 Seconds]

I still think it's funny that people think Roberts would bat leadoff.

 

Yeah, well I think it's funny that you think you know for sure what would happen. We don't know. I've heard that Hendry and Lou want to move Soriano down as well. Nobody knows for sure what they'd do.

[CubinNY]

the only reason lou/hendry want roberts is because he solves the leadoff issue. He gets on base at about a .380 clip & stole 50 bases last year. Period. They desparately want Soriano out of the leadoff slot. Plain & simple. They view it as critical for the overall success of the offense as anything & I agree w/ them.

 

As logically flawed and baseball foolish this statement may be, I can see Hendry and Lou thinking the exact thing.

[David]

the only reason lou/hendry want roberts is because he solves the leadoff issue. He gets on base at about a .380 clip & stole 50 bases last year. Period. They desparately want Soriano out of the leadoff slot. Plain & simple. They view it as critical for the overall success of the offense as anything & I agree w/ them. I'm all for Roberts at the top followed by Fukodome & then Lee, Aram & Soriano. Greene would be another great addition w/ his penchance for power at a low power position. The moves I would make in this order are: Roberts, Nathan & Greene. We clearly missed the boat on Haren as he could have been had cheaply. I'm not a big Burnett fan for health/salary reasons and am not sold on Blanton yet as a top 3 guy.

 

:shock:

 

For once, I'm agreeing with you a little bit. I don't necessarily think that Soriano NEEDS to be out of the leadoff spot nor do I at all think he was the reason for the Cubs fizzling out in the playoffs last year. The Yankees seemed to do OK with him there. Granted, they haven't won any WS since 2000, but they made some deep playoff runs.

 

I don't see any need for Nathan, though. We already have 3-4 pretty strong righty relievers, two of which are being paid pretty well.

[Backtobanks]

This leads me to believe that the Cubs/O's do have a deal in place (rough draft, sorta speak) they're just waiting for the O's to decide Bedard's fate. Because I can think of a few teams that could use Brian Roberts...White Sox, Mets (B4 they reupped Castillo), Padres (before they sign Igauchi), for prime example.

 

I know why - because Hendry is the only one who will pay such a ridiculous price for Roberts.

 

Can we wait to see what the real deal is before we label it "ridiculous"? Nobody has a clue as to which players are involved and yet posters are warming up their rants about Hendry.

[Soul]

I dunno guys, I can easily see Hendry & Lou leaning on Soriano to move down in the order if we acquired Roberts. I don't see how that makes no sense. Maybe it wouldn't actually happen, but I could see pressure being applied on Soriano to do it.

 

...there would probably be quite a bit of pressure coming from the media to do it too.

[BigbadB]

I dunno guys, I can easily see Hendry & Lou leaning on Soriano to move down in the order if we acquired Roberts. I don't see how that makes no sense. Maybe it wouldn't actually happen, but I could see pressure being applied on Soriano to do it.

 

...there would probably be quite a bit of pressure coming from the media to do it too.

 

They might ask him, and Soriano might say no. If the Cubs somehow landed Roberts and Figgins, I could see Soriano agreeing to move down in the line up. If it's just Roberts, I think Soriano will say Roberts fits nicely in the 2 hole.

 

There really is no reason to move Soriano down in the line up. Soriano scores runs in the lead off spot with the best of the lead off hitters in baseball. Jimmy Rollins was arguably the best lead off hitter in baseball last year with only an average OBP. Those 88 XBH's is what does it for him. Soriano has the capability of 88+ XBH's also, as he posted 80 XBH's last year in 135 games.

[SouthSideRyan]

 

As logically flawed and baseball foolish this statement may be, I can see Hendry and Lou thinking the exact thing.

 

That's actually why I see Hendry thinking the same thing.

[pitchcs]

I dunno guys, I can easily see Hendry & Lou leaning on Soriano to move down in the order if we acquired Roberts. I don't see how that makes no sense. Maybe it wouldn't actually happen, but I could see pressure being applied on Soriano to do it.

 

...there would probably be quite a bit of pressure coming from the media to do it too.

 

They might ask him, and Soriano might say no. If the Cubs somehow landed Roberts and Figgins, I could see Soriano agreeing to move down in the line up. If it's just Roberts, I think Soriano will say Roberts fits nicely in the 2 hole.

There really is no reason to move Soriano down in the line up. Soriano scores runs in the lead off spot with the best of the lead off hitters in baseball. Jimmy Rollins was arguably the best lead off hitter in baseball last year with only an average OBP. Those 88 XBH's is what does it for him. Soriano has the capability of 88+ XBH's also, as he posted 80 XBH's last year in 135 games.

 

I'm of the persuasion that could pretty much care less where Sori hits in the line-up, assuming it's in the top 5. But how ridiculous is it that "ask him" and "might say no" are real possibilities. I mean, when did it become the players choice? Does this not make anyone else feel...I dont know what word I'm looking for here....saddened to a point?

[CubColtPacer]

I dunno guys, I can easily see Hendry & Lou leaning on Soriano to move down in the order if we acquired Roberts. I don't see how that makes no sense. Maybe it wouldn't actually happen, but I could see pressure being applied on Soriano to do it.

 

...there would probably be quite a bit of pressure coming from the media to do it too.

 

They might ask him, and Soriano might say no. If the Cubs somehow landed Roberts and Figgins, I could see Soriano agreeing to move down in the line up. If it's just Roberts, I think Soriano will say Roberts fits nicely in the 2 hole.

There really is no reason to move Soriano down in the line up. Soriano scores runs in the lead off spot with the best of the lead off hitters in baseball. Jimmy Rollins was arguably the best lead off hitter in baseball last year with only an average OBP. Those 88 XBH's is what does it for him. Soriano has the capability of 88+ XBH's also, as he posted 80 XBH's last year in 135 games.

 

I'm of the persuasion that could pretty much care less where Sori hits in the line-up, assuming it's in the top 5. But how ridiculous is it that "ask him" and "might say no" are real possibilities. I mean, when did it become the players choice? Does this not make anyone else feel...I dont know what word I'm looking for here....saddened to a point?

 

It became the players choice when clubs started deciding that they could offer incentives besides money in order to get top people to sign with them. In the Cubs case, the incentive they offered Soriano was the leadoff spot. I don't think Soriano will say no, but I do think the Cubs should talk with him beforehand and explain to him what they want to do and see his reaction. Ultimately, I believe the final decision should be the clubs and what is best for them, but the feelings of your star that was promised something as an incentive should factor into the decision.

[BigbadB]

I'm of the persuasion that could pretty much care less where Sori hits in the line-up, assuming it's in the top 5. But how ridiculous is it that "ask him" and "might say no" are real possibilities. I mean, when did it become the players choice? Does this not make anyone else feel...I dont know what word I'm looking for here....saddened to a point?

 

131m dollars. We weren't privvy to the contract negotiations, but it's quite possible one of the selling points for Soriano to sign a deal with the Cubs was that Soriano would hit first in the line up. Maybe Soriano doesn't care where he bats. I'll bet he does. And the Cubs should care how Soriano feels about moving from the top of the order to the bottom half of the order if Soriano really doesn't want to do it. We saw what Soriano did when Washington moved him from 2nd to LF. If he weren't playing in a contract year, it's possible he would not have caved on his demands to stay at 2b.

 

Hendry wants to split up the righties more than anything. If he gets Figgins and Roberts, that could potentially move Soriano all the way down to the 6th spot, with Fukudome hitting somewhere between the 3 big righties. Even I have to agree that 131m is a lot of money to pay for a guy who hits 6th in a line up. How will Soriano feel?

[Backtobanks]

I dunno guys, I can easily see Hendry & Lou leaning on Soriano to move down in the order if we acquired Roberts. I don't see how that makes no sense. Maybe it wouldn't actually happen, but I could see pressure being applied on Soriano to do it.

 

...there would probably be quite a bit of pressure coming from the media to do it too.

 

They might ask him, and Soriano might say no. If the Cubs somehow landed Roberts and Figgins, I could see Soriano agreeing to move down in the line up. If it's just Roberts, I think Soriano will say Roberts fits nicely in the 2 hole.

There really is no reason to move Soriano down in the line up. Soriano scores runs in the lead off spot with the best of the lead off hitters in baseball. Jimmy Rollins was arguably the best lead off hitter in baseball last year with only an average OBP. Those 88 XBH's is what does it for him. Soriano has the capability of 88+ XBH's also, as he posted 80 XBH's last year in 135 games.

 

I'm of the persuasion that could pretty much care less where Sori hits in the line-up, assuming it's in the top 5. But how ridiculous is it that "ask him" and "might say no" are real possibilities. I mean, when did it become the players choice? Does this not make anyone else feel...I dont know what word I'm looking for here....saddened to a point?

 

Stop and think of all the possibilities (and the extra money the Cubs might have) if the manager actually ran the team. Murton could easily be a cheap, solid LF for a long time if Soriano was told to play CF or RF. You might have been able to get a Santana or Bedard with Pie as trade bait. How many more runs could the Cubs score with Soriano hitting 5th? Unfortunately as others have pointed out, Soriano gets what he wants (play LF and leadoff), Fukudome gets to play the position he wants (RF), and the inmates run the asylum.

[mdwilla]

did anyone miss Soranio's qoutes this offseason that says he'll basically hit anywhere in the lineup to help the team and that leading off wasn't that big a deal to him.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

did anyone miss Soranio's qoutes this offseason that says he'll basically hit anywhere in the lineup to help the team and that leading off wasn't that big a deal to him.

I'm guessing a lot of people did

[RammyFanny]

There has been so much talk for so long about the Cubs trading for Brian Roberts, you might think that deal would go down 30 seconds after the Erik Bedard trade is official. Uh, not so fast. According to teams that have spoken to the Cubs and Orioles, they still haven't settled on any of the specifics. The Orioles would get back a starting pitcher -- either Sean Gallagher or Sean Marshall. But beyond that, nothing is particularly concrete. Felix Pie has been much-rumored as the second piece. But when one baseball man was asked whether Pie was likely to be in the trade, he replied: "I doubt it."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=3225433

 

Ehh, I bet the other MLB teams they asked don't know too much because I think the Roberts thing is pretty much a cinch to be one of the deals Kenney said would happen. You don't say that if you haven't discussed the specifics.

[CubColtPacer]

There has been so much talk for so long about the Cubs trading for Brian Roberts, you might think that deal would go down 30 seconds after the Erik Bedard trade is official. Uh, not so fast. According to teams that have spoken to the Cubs and Orioles, they still haven't settled on any of the specifics. The Orioles would get back a starting pitcher -- either Sean Gallagher or Sean Marshall. But beyond that, nothing is particularly concrete. Felix Pie has been much-rumored as the second piece. But when one baseball man was asked whether Pie was likely to be in the trade, he replied: "I doubt it."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=3225433

 

Ehh, I bet the other MLB teams they asked don't know too much because I think the Roberts thing is pretty much a cinch to be one of the deals Kenney said would happen. You don't say that if you haven't discussed the specifics.

 

I'd give them 4 pieces if they didn't take Gallagher either, although I doubt they would do it. Marshall, Murton, Cedeno, and Patterson would be just fine with me, although again I doubt the Orioles would agree to it.

[BigbadB]

I'd give them 4 pieces if they didn't take Gallagher either, although I doubt they would do it. Marshall, Murton, Cedeno, and Patterson would be just fine with me, although again I doubt the Orioles would agree to it.

 

Probably create some 40 man roster nightmares if they get 4 or 5 players for Bedard and 4 more for Roberts.