Cubs Trade Ascanio, Hart & Harrison for Grabow & Gorzelanny

[toonsterwu]

For what we gave up, I like the trade as a good gamble. We're hoping that Grabow finds his form, and Gorzelanny adds some depth to us in some fashion. Ascanio was a nice power arm, but he really projected for the pen and he had some control issues to iron out. We have some righty pen arms in the minors. Hart was a dime a dozen rubber arm. Actually, maybe a tad worse, because each of the last 2 years, he's needed innings as a starter to be able to find his rhythm and stuff. Harrison was being groomed as a utility guy (a dash of Sam Fuld speed, a dash of Mike Fontenot small package power, and a dash of DeRosa, plus a sprinke of good baseball IQ). Even in a best case scenario, he was going to be a 2nd baseman. There's a similar guy in Dwayne Kemp. We have some intriguing options for 2nd, and that isn't a position that I really worry that much about in terms of finding guys. I'm not trying to downgrade Harrison (tho the Cubs were using him as a utility guy basically). He's an intriguing guy, and if everything goes right, he's a potential top of the order (more 2 hole) 2nd baseman, a guy who gets on base, moves the runners over, but has enough pop to not allow the pitcher to cheat. You gotta give up something in a seller's market (and I still believe it's a seller's market, but that there's been a recalibration, a new paradigm if you will, on what constitutes value in regards to trades). He's not a guy I am going to go to sleep wondering if he's going to bite us in a few years, although I wish Josh the best.

[Cubswin11]

We're trying to win the World Series right now not 5 years from now. That's reason why we have so many backloaded contracts.

 

That's why I'm not calling it a good deal. Hendry got good value for DeRosa, but it's easily debatable that he should have kept DeRo since we're trying to win the WS now.

 

Had he signed someone like Orlando Hudson after trading DeRosa, though, that deal looks better. The only thing that makes it look bad is that we signed Miles to replace DeRo. Stevens is contributing right now and might be a bullpen arm in the playoffs this year. Gaub might see the majors in September when rosters expand - so it wasn't only a long term trade.

That's the issue, I think everyone agrees we got good value for him. But the problem is who we have used/gotten to replace him.

[dew1679666265]

Let me paint a hyperbolic example to illustrate my point...let's say team A has the 5 best starting pitchers in the league in it's rotation, with a good bull pen. There's 2-3 young guys in the minors that could be a #3 starter on most other teams to provide depth in case of injury. But the offense is middling. If they traded their best two offensive players for the best starter in the league that's not on their team, it'd be a stupid trade to make even if they got more than fair value for their players.

 

Obviously the DeRo situation isn't off the scale of stupidity like that would be, but it was a stupid trade to make because it hurt the team during our window of opportunity. This whole conversation was about whether the DeRo trade was a good move by Hendry or not. When you state whether a trade was a stupid trade or a good trade, what you're doing is critiquing the judgement of the guy that made that trade. Hendry lapsed on that one, and making that trade should go down as a bad move for Hendry, even if all three of those pitchers are contributing well to our pen in four years. Evaluating the trade purely on the haul is equivalent to judging a trade of baseball cards. It's not just about getting fair value, it's about improving the organization, and Hendry hurt the organization when he made that decision. So, back to my original point, the worst two decisions made by Hendry with regards to trades were DeRo and Pierre. I never commented on the overall respective values of the trio of pitchers we got, present and future, compared to the overall present and future value of DeRosa. It was about whether this was a good trade for Hendry to make or not.

 

If you still want to argue it's a good trade, then we'll just agree to disagree because we're talking apples and oranges.

 

My original point was that Hendry generally makes good value trades - i.e. he rarely overpays in his trades and rarely gets less than good value for his players. The DeRosa trade, in my opinion, fits those parameters exactly. I think we might agree on that point.

 

The conversation has also branched off, however, into whether trading DeRosa in the first place was a good idea. I'm less convinced on that point, but still feel that if the follow up plans had been better then, yes, the idea of trading DeRosa was a good one. The follow up moves (starting Fontenot, signing Miles) haven't worked, though.

[dew1679666265]

We're trying to win the World Series right now not 5 years from now. That's reason why we have so many backloaded contracts.

 

That's why I'm not calling it a good deal. Hendry got good value for DeRosa, but it's easily debatable that he should have kept DeRo since we're trying to win the WS now.

 

Had he signed someone like Orlando Hudson after trading DeRosa, though, that deal looks better. The only thing that makes it look bad is that we signed Miles to replace DeRo. Stevens is contributing right now and might be a bullpen arm in the playoffs this year. Gaub might see the majors in September when rosters expand - so it wasn't only a long term trade.

That's the issue, I think everyone agrees we got good value for him. But the problem is who we have used/gotten to replace him.

 

Yeah, and I clarified that my original point was that Hendry rarely doesn't get good value in his trades. There were a lot of rumors that Hendry would give up way too much for Grabow and Gorzo and I was commenting that it would be completely against Hendry's MO to make that sort of trade.

[Donzo1679666396]

Good trade!

 

I see the value as pretty even, but the Cubs were thin on LH pitching & had/have some RH pitching depth... They leveraged some on that RH pitching depth into much needed LH pitching.... Well done.

[17 Seconds]

Man, I was hoping the left handed reliever we were going to get would actually be good.

 

Grabow sucks.

[Jehrico]

I'm lukewarm on Grabow. He doesn't have great road or day splits this year. Other than 2006, his day splits are always significantly worse than his night splits. On the other hand, he's been very good every month this year except May, as noted above. And in May, if you removed his worst appearance, his ERA for the month would go down from the mid 6s to the high threes. If you remove his three worst appearances over the year, he's got a 1.60 ERA over 45 innings.

[Wrigley Rat]

I was just looking to see what number Grabow would wear and noticed he wore number 34 on the Pirates. Will the Cubs let him wear 34, and what would the fan reaction be if he were to do so?

 

The Cubs should let him wear 34 if he wants. Fans loved Kerry Wood, but its not like he did anything to deserve to have his number retired.

Grabow was on ESPN 1000 and said he will wear 43 this year. Cubs management won't allow him to wear 34.

[BCVM22]

Cubs management won't allow him to wear 34.

 

I have no problem with that. Woody's not even been gone a full season; the equipment staff will keep no. 34 out of circulation for a few seasons like they did for Sammy's no. 21 and re-issue it again in 2011 or 2012.

[Wrigley Rat]

Cubs management won't allow him to wear 34.

 

I have no problem with that. Woody's not even been gone a full season; the equipment staff will keep no. 34 out of circulation for a few seasons like they did for Sammy's no. 21 and re-issue it again in 2011 or 2012.

Grabow took it well - he laughed and said, "Some guy named Kerry Wood wore 34." He sounded like he respected their decision to keep 34 off limits for the time being. He is also happy to be coming to a winning team & was frustrated with the Pirates trading everyone away.

[Wrigley Rat]

Some scouting information on Josh Harrison:

"his feel for hitting is more impressive than his swing and he's just an average runner. He...isn't going to have much power with wood bats. Of greater concern is Harrison's defense at second base. He made 19 errors in 59 games and doesn't turn the pivot well, and he doesn't profile at another position." - 6/08

http://cubsminors.wikispaces.com/HarrisonJ

[nolanwood]

I was just looking to see what number Grabow would wear and noticed he wore number 34 on the Pirates. Will the Cubs let him wear 34, and what would the fan reaction be if he were to do so?

 

The Cubs should let him wear 34 if he wants. Fans loved Kerry Wood, but its not like he did anything to deserve to have his number retired.

Grabow was on ESPN 1000 and said he will wear 43 this year. Cubs management won't allow him to wear 34.

 

 

=D> Woody will always remain my favorite Cub.

[Guest]

Hendry won't stop until everyone is left handed, apparently. Is Hendry left handed himself?

 

It will be a bundle of joy watching Gorzellany pitch to Houston and St. Louis next time around. Heck, even Milwaukee will be salivating at the opportunity to crush another lefty.

 

While I really didn't expect Hendry to be able to make a move that would make St. Louis shake in their boots, it's pretty much a yawner if this is his big move for the deadline.

 

I sorta liked Ascanio out of the 3, but it didn't appear Lou liked him all that much. I guess I don't care all that much about what it cost and I don't care all that much for what he got in return. It's a major snoozefest and I'd like to have back all of the time I wasted reading this thread.

[Donzo1679666396]

Hendry won't stop until everyone is left handed, apparently.

 

:?:

[Guest]

Hendry won't stop until everyone is left handed, apparently.

 

:?:

 

Did you miss the memo? This year's theme was to get more left handed because the RH pitching staff in LA made the Cubs look like clowns.

[erik316wttn]

Hendry won't stop until everyone is left handed, apparently.

 

:?:

 

Did you miss the memo? This year's theme was to get more left handed because the RH pitching staff in LA made the Cubs look like clowns.

 

I think any pitching staff would have made the Cubs look like clowns for as poorly as they played this past offseason.

 

Hendry gets these team philosophies in his head. They're all ridiculous, and he never sticks with them for more than a year, anyway. Do we still want guys who can catch the ball? Next offseason he'll forget all about being more left-handed and will be all about guys with speed or something.

[hotshot13422]

Hendry won't stop until everyone is left handed, apparently.

 

:?:

 

Did you miss the memo? This year's theme was to get more left handed because the RH pitching staff in LA made the Cubs look like clowns.

 

I think any pitching staff would have made the Cubs look like clowns for as poorly as they played this past offseason.

 

Hendry gets these team philosophies in his head. They're all ridiculous, and he never sticks with them for more than a year, anyway. Do we still want guys who can catch the ball? Next offseason he'll forget all about being more left-handed and will be all about guys with speed or something.

 

Speed doesn't slump, dude

[SaorsaDaonnan]

Let me paint a hyperbolic example to illustrate my point...let's say team A has the 5 best starting pitchers in the league in it's rotation, with a good bull pen. There's 2-3 young guys in the minors that could be a #3 starter on most other teams to provide depth in case of injury. But the offense is middling. If they traded their best two offensive players for the best starter in the league that's not on their team, it'd be a stupid trade to make even if they got more than fair value for their players.

 

A trade doesn't have to directly improve the viability of a team's roster in order to be good.

 

If it brings in more talent than it ships out, it improves the team's ability to make further trades from a more advantageous position. The trade you

describe could actually be a great thing for Team A, since the new pitcher could be dealt for a more attractive package than could the two position

players they started with.

[cubbieblue22]

Gorzellany won 14 games in 2007 and had an ERA below 4. If he can ever get back to that level, he would make a very good No.5 starter. IMO Gorzo is worth more than Kevin Hart.

 

Grabow fills a need. You need more than one lefty in the pen. And this trade also frees Lou to use Marshall in other situations than facing one or two lefties. Marshall's been lights out as a reliever and that might be his role on this team down the road (as a late inning reliever). Adding another lefty really solidifies an already decent bullpen.

[weis21]

Gorzellany won 14 games in 2007 and had an ERA below 4. If he can ever get back to that level, he would make a very good No.5 starter. IMO Gorzo is worth more than Kevin Hart.

 

Yeah, I'm not sure why you would be unhappy about this trade - or the fact that he is left handed. All indications and reports seem to think he is finding his 2007 form when he posted a 112 ERA+. I'd bet that he'll probably be better than Kevin Hart, both for the remainder of this year and years to follow. And he's essentially taking Lilly's spot in the rotation, so opposing clubs would have faced a lefty one way or another anyway.

[nolanwood]

Do you think Hendry's lefty obsession is a result of thinking ahead to the postseason with Utley/Howard/Ibanez?

[Backtobanks]

Do you think Hendry's lefty obsession is a result of thinking ahead to the postseason with Utley/Howard/Ibanez?

 

I think he had better worry about making the playoffs first. Actually, the Cubs have needed another lefty in the bullpen since Cotts imploded. Gorzelanny and Marshall add a lot of depth to the starting rotation in case of injuries, poor performance, or team matchups. Also, don't forget the impact of this trade on the future. If Grabow doesn't meet expectations, he could net the Cubs 2 draft picks. Marshall and Gorzelanny could step right in as possible starters if Harden isn't resigned.

[Tony Thomas]

Some scouting information on Josh Harrison:

"his feel for hitting is more impressive than his swing and he's just an average runner. He...isn't going to have much power with wood bats. Of greater concern is Harrison's defense at second base. He made 19 errors in 59 games and doesn't turn the pivot well, and he doesn't profile at another position." - 6/08

http://cubsminors.wikispaces.com/HarrisonJ

Harrison actually has some pretty good speed 10 SB in like 20 games. But he doesn't hit for enough power to be anything except a MI.

[Donzo1679666396]

Am I confused on the Cubs LH pitching situation before the trade?.... Did the Cubs have 7 LH pitchers on the roster already with a couple more ready to come up?

 

Or, did the Cubs have 2 LH pitchers in the system ready to pitch in the majors with 1 of them out until the end of August; and, the other 1 not being used to his strengths because of that lack of LH pitching depth?

 

Nah, this is just Hendry being obsessed with LH pitching---- ya..

[jersey cubs fan]

Don't much care for the acquisitions but I probably care less about what they gave up, so that's that I guess.