Cubs Trade Ascanio, Hart & Harrison for Grabow & Gorzelanny

[jersey cubs fan]

The Cubs decided to make the deal because Dave Littlefield scouted Gorzelanny's recent starts and recommended him to Hendry.

 

Littlefield's involvement, which was obvious and unavoidable considering his history and current position, is probably the scariest part.

 

Littlefield is a very good scout.

 

Seems like a label you can just acquire and then hang onto the rest of your life as long as you stay in the business.

[nolanwood]

I believe this is the best part of deal, in the long term who has the potential to be a better 5th starter? I like Gorzelanny over Hart.

 

Definitely. Gorzo>>>>>>>Hart

 

 

How can Littlefield be such an excellent scout if he was such a pathetic GM?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

The Cubs decided to make the deal because Dave Littlefield scouted Gorzelanny's recent starts and recommended him to Hendry.

 

Littlefield's involvement, which was obvious and unavoidable considering his history and current position, is probably the scariest part.

 

Littlefield is a very good scout.

 

Seems like a label you can just acquire and then hang onto the rest of your life as long as you stay in the business.

 

He helped build the Expos of the early to mid-90s, and I believe the Marlins of the late 90s. He's shown he's not good at making the decisions, but he's good at helping those in charge with those decisions.

[Vanilla Ice]

Gorzelanny >>>>>>>>> Hart

 

but Ascanio and Harrison >>>>>>>>>>> Grabow

[Transmogrified Tiger]

How can Littlefield be such an excellent scout if he was such a pathetic GM?

 

The Peter principle. Littlefield wasn't good at balancing the information available to him to make decisions, and he wasn't the one watching the players. As a scout, he's the one evaluating the player in person, something he's much better at doing.

[nolanwood]

How can Littlefield be such an excellent scout if he was such a pathetic GM?

 

The Peter principle. Littlefield wasn't good at balancing the information available to him to make decisions, and he wasn't the one watching the players. As a scout, he's the one evaluating the player in person, something he's much better at doing.

 

 

I can see that line of thinking to a certain extent. However, passing on Wieters in the draft cause they were afraid to pay him, then turning around and trading for Matt Morris( and his 9.5 mill salary the following year) is insane.

[jersey cubs fan]

He helped build the Expos of the early to mid-90s, and I believe the Marlins of the late 90s. He's shown he's not good at making the decisions, but he's good at helping those in charge with those decisions.

 

Like I said, a label you can acquire and hold on to for life. The Peter Principle doesn't say that once you get promoted above your level of expertise and fail, you can then go back to the previous level and be a master.

 

Hendry played a big part in building the Cubs farm system from nothing. But I wouldn't trust him in a million years to go back to that job.

[RedFlash]

Gorzelanny >>>>>>>>> Hart

 

but Ascanio and Harrison >>>>>>>>>>> Grabow

 

But if the Cubs get draft picks for Grabow (if hey offered arb) then their is a chance the draft picks would >>>>>>>>Ascanio and Harrison.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

He helped build the Expos of the early to mid-90s, and I believe the Marlins of the late 90s. He's shown he's not good at making the decisions, but he's good at helping those in charge with those decisions.

 

Like I said, a label you can acquire and hold on to for life. The Peter Principle doesn't say that once you get promoted above your level of expertise and fail, you can then go back to the previous level and be a master.

 

Hendry played a big part in building the Cubs farm system from nothing. But I wouldn't trust him in a million years to go back to that job.

 

I think that's irrational or an attempt to be negative minded on your part. "He might not be good at it anymore" is a flimsy reason to be afraid of Littlefield's involvement, especially when we've got statistical indicators that Gorzelanny is a good pickup, plus someone like UK reporting that he has the same stuff he had in '07.

[jersey cubs fan]

I think that's irrational or an attempt to be negative minded on your part. "He might not be good at it anymore" is a flimsy reason to be afraid of Littlefield's involvement, especially when we've got statistical indicators that Gorzelanny is a good pickup, plus someone like UK reporting that he has the same stuff he had in '07.

 

Really, it's irrational to not assume a guy who proved completely incompetent at putting together a major league baseball team might not currently be an excellent scout? Seriously? That's ridiculous. Baseball history is littered with people with excellent reputations as baseball people who completely suck. You get tenure as a teacher but may not be the same quality teacher later in life. You get worse playing the game of baseball. But I'm supposed to assume that somebody whose reputation is based on the rather arbitrary notion of being good at spotting who is and is not a good baseball player, who spent the last several years making terrible mistakes in deciding which baseball players to employ, and is now going back to that job, and recommending people he obviously has a bias for considering they a part of the team he completely screwed up.

 

Seriously, you want to call that irrational?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Yes. He has a body of work showing he's not some "good baseball man" who got by on reputation. And again, Littlefield's recommendation isn't going counter to any statistical evidence, or other scouting information available.

[jersey cubs fan]

Yes. He has a body of work showing he's not some "good baseball man" who got by on reputation. And again, Littlefield's recommendation isn't going counter to any statistical evidence, or other scouting information available.

 

Yeah something tells me Chuck Wasserstom isn't the one with the biggest input into Cubs decision making.

[SouthSideRyan]

Yes. He has a body of work showing he's not some "good baseball man" who got by on reputation. And again, Littlefield's recommendation isn't going counter to any statistical evidence, or other scouting information available.

 

Yeah something tells me Chuck Wasserstom isn't the one with the biggest input into Cubs decision making.

 

That's a good thing.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Yes. He has a body of work showing he's not some "good baseball man" who got by on reputation. And again, Littlefield's recommendation isn't going counter to any statistical evidence, or other scouting information available.

 

Yeah something tells me Chuck Wasserstom isn't the one with the biggest input into Cubs decision making.

 

Okay?

 

Just to review:

 

Most anyone looking at Gorzelanny statistically would agree he's a pretty good buy low option.

 

Someone with the knowledge of UK suggesting Gorzelanny's stuff is as good as it was in '07(his best MLB year), as well as saying that Gorzelanny and Rothschild are a good fit.

 

Littlefield, who has a worthy reputation as a talent evaluator, drafted Gorzelanny, and recommended him after seeing him pitch recently.

 

All of those mesh together. If you're afraid because of Littlefield's evaluation then you have to question all of those evaluations, and that's irrational.

[jersey cubs fan]

Yes. He has a body of work showing he's not some "good baseball man" who got by on reputation. And again, Littlefield's recommendation isn't going counter to any statistical evidence, or other scouting information available.

 

Yeah something tells me Chuck Wasserstom isn't the one with the biggest input into Cubs decision making.

 

Okay?

 

Just to review:

 

Most anyone looking at Gorzelanny statistically would agree he's a pretty good buy low option.

 

Someone with the knowledge of UK suggesting Gorzelanny's stuff is as good as it was in '07(his best MLB year), as well as saying that Gorzelanny and Rothschild are a good fit.

 

Littlefield, who has a worthy reputation as a talent evaluator, drafted Gorzelanny, and recommended him after seeing him pitch recently.

 

All of those mesh together. If you're afraid because of Littlefield's evaluation then you have to question all of those evaluations, and that's irrational.

 

I don't have to question anything, I do question Littlefield's judgement. If you think that is irrational, you don't understand the meaning of the word irrational.

[Springfield_CUBBY]

Yes. He has a body of work showing he's not some "good baseball man" who got by on reputation. And again, Littlefield's recommendation isn't going counter to any statistical evidence, or other scouting information available.

 

Yeah something tells me Chuck Wasserstom isn't the one with the biggest input into Cubs decision making.

 

Okay?

 

Just to review:

 

Most anyone looking at Gorzelanny statistically would agree he's a pretty good buy low option.

 

Someone with the knowledge of UK suggesting Gorzelanny's stuff is as good as it was in '07(his best MLB year), as well as saying that Gorzelanny and Rothschild are a good fit.

 

Littlefield, who has a worthy reputation as a talent evaluator, drafted Gorzelanny, and recommended him after seeing him pitch recently.

 

All of those mesh together. If you're afraid because of Littlefield's evaluation then you have to question all of those evaluations, and that's irrational.

 

I don't have to question anything, I do question Littlefield's judgement. If you think that is irrational, you don't understand the meaning of the word irrational.

OH YEAH? Well, if YOU think the whole thing IS rational, then you don't know the meaning of, um . . . "is" . . . or "thing" . . . or "whole" . . . !

[Backtobanks]

Gorzelanny >>>>>>>>> Hart

 

but Ascanio and Harrison >>>>>>>>>>> Grabow

 

I'm not sure how you can state that Ascanio and Harrison >>>>>>>>>Grabow when neither one has done anything in the majors while Grabow has been successful for quite awhile.

[Gmoney08]

Very few GM's in the MLB could have built a winner in Pittsburgh. They sell off their players right away.

[nolanwood]

Very few GM's in the MLB could have built a winner in Pittsburgh. They sell off their players right away.

 

The GM works within the confines of the budget, and while their budget is one of the lowest (ahead of only SD and FL) they could have been a lot more competitive. I'm fairly confident that everyone who has posted in this thread could have been as good as, or a better GM in Pittsburgh than Littlefield. They couldn't have been any worse...

[Jake]

The Cubs decided to make the deal because Dave Littlefield scouted Gorzelanny's recent starts and recommended him to Hendry.

 

Littlefield's involvement, which was obvious and unavoidable considering his history and current position, is probably the scariest part.

 

Littlefield is a very good scout.

 

Seems like a label you can just acquire and then hang onto the rest of your life as long as you stay in the business.

 

He helped build the Expos of the early to mid-90s, and I believe the Marlins of the late 90s. He's shown he's not good at making the decisions, but he's good at helping those in charge with those decisions.

Yes, the Marlins. We hired him from there. He was, and probably will be an excellent scout. And, I think, given another chance, he could learn from his mistakes in Pittsburgh.

 

He made some good moves early on - the Todd Ritchie to the Whitesox trade seemed amazing at the time. The Giles for Bay, et al trade was great.

 

Some, which seem decent at the time, don't pan out. The Kris Benson trade - Matt Peterson was the #2 pitching prospect for the Mets. They got Wigginton to keep 3B warm for Jose Bautista, who was reaquired in the trade. All 3 were busts in the end, but the trade seemed decent for an overpaid pitcher who couldn't stay healthy.

 

The bad ones, which outnumber the good ones have been well documented.

 

The thing that really killed him here, though, was the draft. He tried to draft guys who'd make it to the Majors sooner vs. over all talent. That was the logic of Moskos over Weiters two years ago. We see how well that's working out. We'll always wonder how much of this was his fault, and how much was McClatchy's.

[Jake]

Gorzelanny >>>>>>>>> Hart

 

but Ascanio and Harrison >>>>>>>>>>> Grabow

 

But if the Cubs get draft picks for Grabow (if hey offered arb) then their is a chance the draft picks would >>>>>>>>Ascanio and Harrison.

 

Here's the thing: The only players to accept arbitration last year were relievers. It is not a done deal that Grabow would not accept. Then, if he doesn't accept, another team has to sign him. If he's Type A, would you give up your first pick for him? If he's not Type A, you don't get 2 picks.

[Jake]

Very few GM's in the MLB could have built a winner in Pittsburgh. They sell off their players right away.

What do you mean by right away? Bay was around for 4+ years. McLouth for 5 or 6? I could go on.

[UK1679666180]

I believe this is the best part of deal, in the long term who has the potential to be a better 5th starter? I like Gorzelanny over Hart.

 

Definitely. Gorzo>>>>>>>Hart

 

 

How can Littlefield be such an excellent scout if he was such a pathetic GM?

 

GMs spend very little time scouting players, they spend most of their time on the phone with the scouts scouting the players.

 

Flaws w/GMs come more from poor philosophy rather than lack of judgement. If Littlefield scouted Gorzelanny based on performance as well as the 1st hand knowledge of the days in Pitt. as far as his make-up and what not, I think it's a good thing that Littlefield scout him and recommended him rather than not trading for him b/c of questionable judgement.

[BCVM22]

Gorzelanny will wear no. 22 when he gets called up. May he continue that number's long-standing tradition of sustained excellence.

[E.J.]

Gorzelanny will wear no. 22 when he gets called up. May he continue that number's long-standing tradition of sustained excellence.

 

Can't say it was all that great for Kevin Hart.