Reds (Martinez) vs Cubs (Taillon): 6/1/25, 1:20pm

[bukie]

15 hours ago, Soul said:

Jed has yet to GM the team to the playoffs.  He has no claim to goodness until he does.

Uhh, Jed was the Cubs GM in 2016.

[Jason Ross]

6 minutes ago, bukie said:

Uhh, Jed was the Cubs GM in 2016.

I do believe his argument is that while Hoyer was the GM, the Cubs baseball structure does not place the GM as the "leader" of the baseball side of things. It would be like claiming Carter Hawkins lead the Cubs to the playoffs in 2025 if that happens. Baseball terminology has changed a lot over the last decade. The VP has replaced the GM and the GM has replaced the Assistant-GM.

(Ultimately, I think Jed was certainly useful and apart of those teams, but the buck stopped at Epstein then, much like the buck stops with Jed now and not Carter Hawkins).

[squally1313]

I think the organization was in a really bad spot when Hoyer over as the head of the front office. Benefit of hindsight, looking at the 2020 team and the top prospects rankings and knowing what we know of those players now, it wasn't pretty. Yes, Jed was around and played a part in the organization being where it was. But if we're going to ding him for that than we have to credit him for all the other success he was there for under Theo's tenure. 

Since Jed has taken over, he's been....fine. I don't think there was a magic turnaround path and I think every post the teardown you could point to clear, if a little incremental, improvements in the overall health of the organization. But I also recognize it's been 5 years, and that the Cubs have such a clear financial advantage over the rest of the division. It's tricky to put into words, but I kinda feel like going into this past offseason there was a path open to trying to be a mega team, or there was a path to just be the clear favorite in the division in the next couple years, and thus far we've chosen the second option. If we were to kick this thing into overdrive (and a Tucker/PCA extension, trade for a top pitcher type moves can still get us there), I'm more than willing to accept the slow, gradual build into what was an 85 win team with a top farm system heading into the 2024-2025 offseason. If the ultimate goal was just to win the division every year and roll the dice....am I happy we're here? Yes. Do I think it needed to take 5 years to get there? No. 

[BigSlick]

If Jed can find a way to extend Tucker and give PCA a longterm contract im happy 

[CubUgly]

1 hour ago, The_Achiever said:

I missed that when it happened but damn is that depressing.  Do we think the (maybe not so) little injuries adding up is what killed his love for the game?  

I guess it's also kind of weird that Rizzo is apparently retired now.  I'll forever be grateful for 2016.  

I have a friend who thinks it was the beaning - but likely a combo along with the injuries.  The issue he has now is a chronic back issue but back then there were different areas of injury.  I think he felt like he came back too early from one injury and his performance slipped and it was like he vowed he'd never do that again and would stay out until he was absolutely 100%.   He got some criticism for that and he always seemed very sensitive to that and it really seemed to bother him.  That may be part of it too. 

[gflore34]

1 hour ago, squally1313 said:

I think the organization was in a really bad spot when Hoyer over as the head of the front office. Benefit of hindsight, looking at the 2020 team and the top prospects rankings and knowing what we know of those players now, it wasn't pretty. Yes, Jed was around and played a part in the organization being where it was. But if we're going to ding him for that than we have to credit him for all the other success he was there for under Theo's tenure. 

Since Jed has taken over, he's been....fine. I don't think there was a magic turnaround path and I think every post the teardown you could point to clear, if a little incremental, improvements in the overall health of the organization. But I also recognize it's been 5 years, and that the Cubs have such a clear financial advantage over the rest of the division. It's tricky to put into words, but I kinda feel like going into this past offseason there was a path open to trying to be a mega team, or there was a path to just be the clear favorite in the division in the next couple years, and thus far we've chosen the second option. If we were to kick this thing into overdrive (and a Tucker/PCA extension, trade for a top pitcher type moves can still get us there), I'm more than willing to accept the slow, gradual build into what was an 85 win team with a top farm system heading into the 2024-2025 offseason. If the ultimate goal was just to win the division every year and roll the dice....am I happy we're here? Yes. Do I think it needed to take 5 years to get there? No. 

That's the frustrating part, literally the only team in the Central capable of being such as team, no competition on that front, and, for, I'm guessing financial reasons, they choose option 2.  I believe a winning team ultimately makes more money than a losing team that manages to draw a good crowd because of ambiance.  Somewhat, like the old expression it takes money to make money.  I would love for the Cubs to be the evil empire of the NL Central, use their resources to the fullest, make the whole of the Reds, Cardinals, Brewers and Pirates inconsequential in the Central,

[gflore34]

18 minutes ago, CubUgly said:

I have a friend who thinks it was the beaning - but likely a combo along with the injuries.  The issue he has now is a chronic back issue but back then there were different areas of injury.  I think he felt like he came back too early from one injury and his performance slipped and it was like he vowed he'd never do that again and would stay out until he was absolutely 100%.   He got some criticism for that and he always seemed very sensitive to that and it really seemed to bother him.  That may be part of it too. 

I think that's the primary culprit wasn't there also a vicious LD he hit that hurt someone?  Or, was that in 2017? Beaning happened in 2018.

[CubinNY]

I go back and forth on Jed. I suppose my bottom line is that he's a company man. In a sense, he has to be to keep his job. But in another sense, he hasn't used the meager resources (by Cubs' profitability) well. 

There is no reason why they should not be the favorite to win the division every year even given the limitations placed on them by the shitbirds who own the team. 

I'm glad things are coming together for him, the MLB team, and for us fans. I don't know that they would find anyone with a different mentality to run the baseball opps department, because at the end of the day, they own the team and will run it how they see fit. 

So my assessment, they could do worse and they could maybe do a little better. 

[Soul]

2 hours ago, chibears55 said:

He was the GM in 2015, 16, 17, 18, 19, and 20 🤷‍♂️

GMINO.  It was Theo’s team until Nov 2020.  Now you guys have me completely trashing Jed and that wasn’t my intention.  But he wasn’t the ultimate leader on those teams and he has yet to do it as that guy.  This year has given me a lot more perspective on him and I’m really excited.  But wait for it.  Let him earn it.

Edited June 2, 2025 by Soul

[Soul]

1 hour ago, BigSlick said:

If Jed can find a way to extend Tucker and give PCA a longterm contract im happy 

Those would be two top quality moves for sure.

[Geographyhater8888]

22 hours ago, CubUgly said:

I'd say there's a good argument for top 3 but it's debatable.  I think what happened with the Cubs was several players that one expected to keep developing and getting better did not, they regressed instead.  Bryant was one of those - injuries played a part but when you can't play you can't help the team. 

Trout Betts Harper at the time were all better.

the 4 things that stick out most to me are Russell’s off the field, baby mamma drama that effected his on the field performance and availability with his self imposed distraction to where we never got see him fully developed, since he was counted on much like Bryant. 

Bryant of course and bad contracts and or underperforming players like Darvish and Heyward relative to expectations.
If Darvish is that TOR arm they laid him to be then 2018 annd 19 end differently.

Heyward was paid as a 4-6 WAR guy and topped out at 2.3? Immediately forgot how to hit when he put on a cubs uniform. That’s 4 supposed difference makers we envisioned if you told us they’d all be cubs in October of 2015 and never panned out.

as far as development what we didn’t get from Almora and perhaps Schwarber, Javy and Contreras made up for that in a big way

Edited June 3, 2025 by Geographyhater8888

[CubUgly]

3 hours ago, Geographyhater8888 said:

Trout Betts Harper at the time were all better.

the 4 things that stick out most to me are Russell’s off the field, baby mamma drama that effected his on the field performance and availability with his self imposed distraction to where we never got see him fully developed, since he was counted on much like Bryant. 

Bryant of course and bad contracts and or underperforming players like Darvish and Heyward relative to expectations.
If Darvish is that TOR arm they laid him to be then 2018 annd 19 end differently.

Heyward was paid as a 4-6 WAR guy and topped out at 2.3? Immediately forgot how to hit when he put on a cubs uniform. That’s 4 supposed difference makers we envisioned if you told us they’d all be cubs in October of 2015 and never panned out.

as far as development what we didn’t get from Almora and perhaps Schwarber, Javy and Contreras made up for that in a big way

Javy had that great year in 2018, but I felt there was a fairly steady regression after that so I would not agree him.  I thought Wilson yes developed a bit as a hitter but regressed as a catcher and that continued as he went to the Cardinals to the point where they won't let him catch anymore.   

And the bats just stopped in crunch time at the end in both 2018 and 2019 and again in the playoffs in 2020.  It was brutal to watch

[Geographyhater8888]

1 minute ago, CubUgly said:

Javy had that great year in 2018, but I felt there was a fairly steady regression after that so I would not agree him.  I thought Wilson yes developed a bit as a hitter but regressed as a catcher and that continued as he went to the Cardinals to the point where they won't let him catch anymore.   

And the bats just stopped in crunch time at the end in both 2018 and 2019 and again in the playoffs in 2020.  It was brutal to watch

Javy regressed in 2020. He posted an even higher 6.6 WAR in 2019 then his 6.4 in 2018. With him, Bryant still peaking, a well behaved, less distracted Russell who’d perform at a high level, especially better than Descalso and Darvish and Heyward playing up to their contracts then things might have gone differently.

It’s a matter of playing performing relative to their projections that never happened.

the bats are a mystery though. Is it the wrigley day games wearing out players by September? Cubs were able to withstand it in 2016 thanks to age and a deep bench getting the regulars needed rest if it’s indeed a culprit.

[squally1313]

4 hours ago, Geographyhater8888 said:

Russell’s off the field, baby mamma drama that effected his on the field performance and availability with his self imposed distraction to where we never got see him fully developed,

[BKHoo]

Any latest intel on Tucker and his finger?

[Brian707]

2 hours ago, Geographyhater8888 said:

 

the bats are a mystery though. Is it the wrigley day games wearing out players by September? 

In the 1980's maybe that was a legit argument. But besides from Fridays, they don't play that many extra day games.

[mul21]

6 minutes ago, Brian707 said:

In the 1980's maybe that was a legit argument. But besides from Fridays, they don't play that many extra day games.

They actually do.  There are multiple series where all 3 games are a 1:20 start and nobody else does that.  I just did a count for the rest of the season and they play 10 more day games than even the Brewers, who have some additional day games because they play the Cubs, so there is a marked difference.  I'm not sure it really has an effect on the team with the way nutrition and training has changed in the last 30 years, but it's something worth considering.

[Bull]

23 minutes ago, Brian707 said:

In the 1980's maybe that was a legit argument. But besides from Fridays, they don't play that many extra day games.

I'm convinced that extra day games was a huge liability as late as the early 2000's. Somewhere around 2015 they expanded it to 35 night games, leaving 46 day games. When you consider about half of those are played in April, May and September, I see it as an actual benefit for pitcher heath on cold nights. That's right, it changed in 2015? and then they won the world series. It WAS a liability. 

From https://www.chicago.gov/dam/city/depts/oemc/general/PDF/2010WrigleyField.pdf

The 1988 Ordinance authorized 18 night games a year for 15 years (through 2002). The 2004 Ordinance allowed the Cubs to schedule up to 30 night games to be phased in by 2006 (with 22 night games in 2004 and 26 night games in 2005) at Wrigley Field during the regular season. The 2004 Ordinance extends through at least 2015.

[Stratos]

Hopefully we get Assad and/or Shota back before the ASB and we may not even need SP help at the deadline.

Would be nice to see Wicks pitching better too.

Edit: i see Wicks had a 3.00 ERA in May over 4 starts

Edited June 3, 2025 by Stratos

[Sammy Sofa]

2 hours ago, squally1313 said:

Come on, beating a spouse is just a distraction!

[imb]

there's no mystery to what happened. baez is a wildcard free-swinger, that was always going to catch up to him. Rizzo and Bryant are big guys with bad backs. That's pretty much it.

[CubUgly]

4 hours ago, Geographyhater8888 said:

Javy regressed in 2020. He posted an even higher 6.6 WAR in 2019 then his 6.4 in 2018. With him, Bryant still peaking, a well behaved, less distracted Russell who’d perform at a high level, especially better than Descalso and Darvish and Heyward playing up to their contracts then things might have gone differently.

It’s a matter of playing performing relative to their projections that never happened.

the bats are a mystery though. Is it the wrigley day games wearing out players by September? Cubs were able to withstand it in 2016 thanks to age and a deep bench getting the regulars needed rest if it’s indeed a culprit.

I think Javy was still struggling in '21 as well....he was doing better than he was in 20 but he was so bad in 20 even mediocre was better.  He blamed it on no fans but showed in subsequent years it was more than that.   Whatever Russell's off the field issues and the reasons, his regression was real and significant.  Schwarber was extreme three true outcome here - so extreme in fact that the best he could do on the open market was a 1 year - $8 million contract with the Nats.  Ironically his last two years with the Phillies have been easily his two best seasons of his career.  Early last year when we played the Phillies in Wrigley I went and the Phillies fans were pretty down on him, he was hitting below .200 (we can relate) and it was homer or nothing...but his second half was spectacular, and he's kept that momentum up since. 

[PeanutPunch33]

On 6/2/2025 at 11:33 AM, squally1313 said:

I think the organization was in a really bad spot when Hoyer over as the head of the front office. Benefit of hindsight, looking at the 2020 team and the top prospects rankings and knowing what we know of those players now, it wasn't pretty. Yes, Jed was around and played a part in the organization being where it was. But if we're going to ding him for that than we have to credit him for all the other success he was there for under Theo's tenure. 

Since Jed has taken over, he's been....fine. I don't think there was a magic turnaround path and I think every post the teardown you could point to clear, if a little incremental, improvements in the overall health of the organization. But I also recognize it's been 5 years, and that the Cubs have such a clear financial advantage over the rest of the division. It's tricky to put into words, but I kinda feel like going into this past offseason there was a path open to trying to be a mega team, or there was a path to just be the clear favorite in the division in the next couple years, and thus far we've chosen the second option. If we were to kick this thing into overdrive (and a Tucker/PCA extension, trade for a top pitcher type moves can still get us there), I'm more than willing to accept the slow, gradual build into what was an 85 win team with a top farm system heading into the 2024-2025 offseason. If the ultimate goal was just to win the division every year and roll the dice....am I happy we're here? Yes. Do I think it needed to take 5 years to get there? No. 

IMO, folks are getting caught up in the "results" instead of the "process".  Yes, results matter and we all want the Cubs to win as many games as possible.  This rebuild took a legitimate 4 or 5 years.  However, the Cubs have developed more arms in the last calendar year than the entire Epstein/Hendry era combined.  Nobody expected PCA to become this type of hitter and they developed him into a potential top 5 player in baseball.  Amaya has gotten better, Suzuki has had year-over-year growth, Busch has become a guy.  The development of these guys alone makes Jed a really good GM. 

The development infrastructure takes time to build, but now this is a great organization.  Players that come here know that their careers are in good hands and they will be put in positions to succeed.  

We also don't know how much the ownership has hamstrung Jed from being able to spend.  I have no doubt that if Theo was still here they would have gone after a guy like Max Fried in the offseason.  For whatever reason they don't give Jed the same leash to buy talent.