Cashner and Na traded for Rizzo and Cates

[CubColtPacer]

On a big picture note, this offseason, Theo has acquired 3 lottery tickets and has evidently decided to play another one as well. Stewart, Wood, Volstad, and LaHair. How many, if any, do you guys see turning in a 3 WAR season in 2012 and becoming excellent trade bait or potentially long term answers for us? Personally, I think we'll see Wood and LaHair surprise, Stewart be on the bench by midseason and Volstad basically being the epitomy of a 5th starter.

 

surprise whom? i think a lot of people are expecting a lot of travis wood. lahair producing would certainly be a surprise, though.

 

The question about who would it surprise could probably be said for LaHair as well. He's one where the computers (at least the ones which have come out with 2012 projections so far), scouts, and old school fans seem to agree will likely be decent to good, but sabermetrically inclined analysts and fans aren't so sure.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

That was pretty nice of Theo to let Jed do an interview like a real GM.

[dew1679666265]

My first reaction was that I wasn't a big fan of this trade. I kept hearing varied reports on Rizzo's upside and I'm a huge fan of Cashner's upside, despite his huge injury risk. However, the more I've thought about it and the more I've heard about Cates, the more I like this trade.

 

I'm still not as ecstatic as most on this since I'm not fully sold on Rizzo as a cornerstone, elite superstar, however this MLE line is pretty impressive: .277/.343/.515 as a 21 year old. Very good trade by Theo/Hoyer as they seem to love Rizzo.

[Guest]

I like Wood and Stewart as 3 win players, Volstad as Jerome Williams reincarnated, and refuse to acknowledge LaHair's existence.

 

LaHair is only getting a few months to try to build up potential trade value while Rizzo gets some seasoning at AAA (and we manipulate his service time and arbitration clock). It's a pretty bearable situation with some moderate potential for a reward and no real risk.

 

LaHair is 18 months older than Prince Fielder, the reward isn't really there. If anything, there's more risk that him hitting .275/.340/.435 for 2 months costs Rizzo some MLB development time, although hopefully that's less of a risk with this regime. I'd rather play Soriano there and give Sappelt or Jackson extra at bats if Rizzo isn't to be on the Opening Day roster.

 

 

And how has the internet not made a Professor Farnsworth "Tell them I hate them!" captioned picture? That's as outrageous as LaHair breathing the same air as you or me.

[Guest]

My first reaction was that I wasn't a big fan of this trade. I kept hearing varied reports on Rizzo's upside and I'm a huge fan of Cashner's upside, despite his huge injury risk. However, the more I've thought about it and the more I've heard about Cates, the more I like this trade.

 

I'm still not as ecstatic as most on this since I'm not fully sold on Rizzo as a cornerstone, elite superstar, however this MLE line is pretty impressive: .277/.343/.515 as a 21 year old. Very good trade by Theo/Hoyer as they seem to love Rizzo.

 

Does he really need to be to justify being really happy with this trade?

[Guest]

My first reaction was that I wasn't a big fan of this trade. I kept hearing varied reports on Rizzo's upside and I'm a huge fan of Cashner's upside, despite his huge injury risk. However, the more I've thought about it and the more I've heard about Cates, the more I like this trade.

 

I'm still not as ecstatic as most on this since I'm not fully sold on Rizzo as a cornerstone, elite superstar, however this MLE line is pretty impressive: .277/.343/.515 as a 21 year old. Very good trade by Theo/Hoyer as they seem to love Rizzo.

 

Does he really need to be to justify being really happy with this trade?

 

Well the star players have to come from somewhere, and first base is a pretty good place to have one, especially since we don't have any other option.

[jersey cubs fan]

My first reaction was that I wasn't a big fan of this trade. I kept hearing varied reports on Rizzo's upside and I'm a huge fan of Cashner's upside, despite his huge injury risk. However, the more I've thought about it and the more I've heard about Cates, the more I like this trade.

 

I'm still not as ecstatic as most on this since I'm not fully sold on Rizzo as a cornerstone, elite superstar, however this MLE line is pretty impressive: .277/.343/.515 as a 21 year old. Very good trade by Theo/Hoyer as they seem to love Rizzo.

 

I just don't get why people have to be sold that he's a cornerstone elite superstar.

[Guest]

Na *might* be a fourth outfielder. Cates is a legit, if long-shot, prospect. We definitely got the better end of that swap.

 

Yeah, the Cubs definitely got the better of Na vs. Cates, there is little question on that.

[Little Slide Rooter]

My first reaction was that I wasn't a big fan of this trade. I kept hearing varied reports on Rizzo's upside and I'm a huge fan of Cashner's upside, despite his huge injury risk. However, the more I've thought about it and the more I've heard about Cates, the more I like this trade.

 

I'm still not as ecstatic as most on this since I'm not fully sold on Rizzo as a cornerstone, elite superstar, however this MLE line is pretty impressive: .277/.343/.515 as a 21 year old. Very good trade by Theo/Hoyer as they seem to love Rizzo.

 

Does he really need to be to justify being really happy with this trade?

 

Well the star players have to come from somewhere, and first base is a pretty good place to have one, especially since we don't have any other option.

 

Baseball America begs to differ

 

Ridling hitting stride in minors: Baseball America reports the Cubs have an uncovered gem in 1B prospect Rebel Ridling, who hit .309 with 20 homers, 29 doubles and 80 RBI in 125 games in 2011 for Double-A Tennessee. He also has a career .812 OPS. "Sometimes you never know when the light's going to go on for a guy," Cubs farm director Oneri Fleita said. "He's a good first baseman and his defense keeps getting better, and now he's chasing the ball around left field some too. He's become a better hitter. He's cut down his strikeouts, seeing more pitches."

(Updated 01/06/2012)

 

I apologize if that lead to anyones head exploding.

[toonsterwu]

hmm ... and i just posted about ridling being underappreciated the other day. all that said, oneri is a bit too gushy on rebel.

[Rob]

I like Wood and Stewart as 3 win players, Volstad as Jerome Williams reincarnated, and refuse to acknowledge LaHair's existence.

 

LaHair is only getting a few months to try to build up potential trade value while Rizzo gets some seasoning at AAA (and we manipulate his service time and arbitration clock). It's a pretty bearable situation with some moderate potential for a reward and no real risk.

 

LaHair is 18 months older than Prince Fielder, the reward isn't really there. If anything, there's more risk that him hitting .275/.340/.435 for 2 months costs Rizzo some MLB development time, although hopefully that's less of a risk with this regime. I'd rather play Soriano there and give Sappelt or Jackson extra at bats if Rizzo isn't to be on the Opening Day roster.

 

 

And how has the internet not made a Professor Farnsworth "Tell them I hate them!" captioned picture? That's as outrageous as LaHair breathing the same air as you or me.

 

Scouts have actually come around on LaHair, unlike most AAAA slugger situations. And LaHair has less than one year of service time. If he performs well for the next 3-4 months, there will be scouts who would urge their front offices to give up a couple C+ prospects for 3-4 cheap years of what might be a 2nd division starter or a good backup. That's not much, but it's probably worth it. There's no chance of Soriano going back to the infield to give Sappelt that playing time regardless (and I'm not convinced Sappelt wont start the season in Iowa... stupid Reed Johnson signing).

 

I have zero concern that LaHair will block Rizzo for even a week. When Rizzo is ready for the show they'll bring him up.

[XZero771679666304]

My first reaction was that I wasn't a big fan of this trade. I kept hearing varied reports on Rizzo's upside and I'm a huge fan of Cashner's upside, despite his huge injury risk. However, the more I've thought about it and the more I've heard about Cates, the more I like this trade.

 

I'm still not as ecstatic as most on this since I'm not fully sold on Rizzo as a cornerstone, elite superstar, however this MLE line is pretty impressive: .277/.343/.515 as a 21 year old. Very good trade by Theo/Hoyer as they seem to love Rizzo.

 

I just don't get why people have to be sold that he's a cornerstone elite superstar.

 

He doesn't. If he ends up being merely solidly above average and Cashner doesn't become an elite starter this is a pretty clear win.

[Guest]

Wildest part: Fleita talking about a prospect improving because he's seeing more pitches.

[KingCubsFan]

My first reaction was that I wasn't a big fan of this trade. I kept hearing varied reports on Rizzo's upside and I'm a huge fan of Cashner's upside, despite his huge injury risk. However, the more I've thought about it and the more I've heard about Cates, the more I like this trade.

 

I'm still not as ecstatic as most on this since I'm not fully sold on Rizzo as a cornerstone, elite superstar, however this MLE line is pretty impressive: .277/.343/.515 as a 21 year old. Very good trade by Theo/Hoyer as they seem to love Rizzo.

 

Does he really need to be to justify being really happy with this trade?

 

Well the star players have to come from somewhere, and first base is a pretty good place to have one, especially since we don't have any other option.

I agree, but people are suddenly dismissing Rizzo's ceiling because John Sickels isn't sold. Rizzo certainly isn't a sure thing, but he's about as close as it gets in terms of current first base prospects (unless Bryce Harper moves to first). Looking at minor league first base prospects, are there really any better bets out there, given age and closeness to the majors? We just got at Top 30-40 prospect in baseball for a pitcher who threw 30 innings last year and has never had a full starter's workload, and people are upset because he's not a guarantee to be Adrian Gonzalez?

[Rob]

FWIW, I asked Callis where Cates would rank in the Cubs system. He said 21-30, near Ben Wells.

[hankp101]

I had assumed, like many, that the Cubs would have to move Garza in order to pull off a trade for Rizzo. I wonder if being able to do it for Cashner makes an extension rather than a trade for Garza more likely?

[Elrhino]

It feels like some people (not posters on this board, just in general) are a bit overly down on Rizzo given that he was the centerpiece to pretty ugly Gonzales trade and didn't tear it up immediately during his cup of coffee. It's like it was up to a 21 year old hitting in a canyon of a ballpark to show that the Red Sox didn't just completely rob an MVP candidate for a handful of magic beans. If they had just left Rizzo in AAA and let him continue to rake there without the expectations, where he was the youngest everyday starter in the PCL, I wonder if there would be so much skepticism. If you just objectively judged Rizzo based on his age and numbers and completely took the Gonzales trade out of it, which wasn't his fault, it feels like people would be higher on him.

[dew1679666265]

My first reaction was that I wasn't a big fan of this trade. I kept hearing varied reports on Rizzo's upside and I'm a huge fan of Cashner's upside, despite his huge injury risk. However, the more I've thought about it and the more I've heard about Cates, the more I like this trade.

 

I'm still not as ecstatic as most on this since I'm not fully sold on Rizzo as a cornerstone, elite superstar, however this MLE line is pretty impressive: .277/.343/.515 as a 21 year old. Very good trade by Theo/Hoyer as they seem to love Rizzo.

 

Does he really need to be to justify being really happy with this trade?

 

Read another sentence longer in my post - I referred to it as a very good trade by Theo and Jed. My concern over whether he has the upside to be a cornerstone keeps me from being ecstatic about this trade as some on here are. I still think it's a very good trade even if Rizzo is nothing more than a good to very good first baseman long term (which isn't something to take for granted either).

[dew1679666265]

My first reaction was that I wasn't a big fan of this trade. I kept hearing varied reports on Rizzo's upside and I'm a huge fan of Cashner's upside, despite his huge injury risk. However, the more I've thought about it and the more I've heard about Cates, the more I like this trade.

 

I'm still not as ecstatic as most on this since I'm not fully sold on Rizzo as a cornerstone, elite superstar, however this MLE line is pretty impressive: .277/.343/.515 as a 21 year old. Very good trade by Theo/Hoyer as they seem to love Rizzo.

 

I just don't get why people have to be sold that he's a cornerstone elite superstar.

 

I don't get why my post requires him to be that. As I said, I think it's a very good trade even with my questions over whether he is an elite cornerstone bat.

[dew1679666265]

I agree, but people are suddenly dismissing Rizzo's ceiling because John Sickels isn't sold. Rizzo certainly isn't a sure thing, but he's about as close as it gets in terms of current first base prospects (unless Bryce Harper moves to first). Looking at minor league first base prospects, are there really any better bets out there, given age and closeness to the majors? We just got at Top 30-40 prospect in baseball for a pitcher who threw 30 innings last year and has never had a full starter's workload, and people are upset because he's not a guarantee to be Adrian Gonzalez?

 

Who's upset?

[Guest]

My first reaction was that I wasn't a big fan of this trade. I kept hearing varied reports on Rizzo's upside and I'm a huge fan of Cashner's upside, despite his huge injury risk. However, the more I've thought about it and the more I've heard about Cates, the more I like this trade.

 

I'm still not as ecstatic as most on this since I'm not fully sold on Rizzo as a cornerstone, elite superstar, however this MLE line is pretty impressive: .277/.343/.515 as a 21 year old. Very good trade by Theo/Hoyer as they seem to love Rizzo.

 

Does he really need to be to justify being really happy with this trade?

 

Well the star players have to come from somewhere, and first base is a pretty good place to have one, especially since we don't have any other option.

 

You don't really need to have elite superstars to have a really good team. They certainly help.

 

And, hell, this might be arbitrary, but star and elite superstar don't mean the same thing to me.

[Guest]

My first reaction was that I wasn't a big fan of this trade. I kept hearing varied reports on Rizzo's upside and I'm a huge fan of Cashner's upside, despite his huge injury risk. However, the more I've thought about it and the more I've heard about Cates, the more I like this trade.

 

I'm still not as ecstatic as most on this since I'm not fully sold on Rizzo as a cornerstone, elite superstar, however this MLE line is pretty impressive: .277/.343/.515 as a 21 year old. Very good trade by Theo/Hoyer as they seem to love Rizzo.

 

Does he really need to be to justify being really happy with this trade?

 

Read another sentence longer in my post - I referred to it as a very good trade by Theo and Jed. My concern over whether he has the upside to be a cornerstone keeps me from being ecstatic about this trade as some on here are. I still think it's a very good trade even if Rizzo is nothing more than a good to very good first baseman long term (which isn't something to take for granted either).

 

I did read all of it. I'm just not sure why not being sold on him being an elite superstar justifies not being ecstatic over the trade.

 

I'm not sure anyone here expects him to be that.

[dew1679666265]

You don't really need to have elite superstars to have a really good team. They certainly help.

 

They help you be more consistent. The Cubs in the later 2000s had some really good players (DLee, Aramis, Dempster, Soto, Soriano for a little bit) but never a legit superstar. That, in part, led to the inconsistency we saw. They're not necessary, but they're pretty important if you can afford them.

 

Note: That's not a criticism in any way of the Rizzo trade. It was a very good trade.

[bukie]

Just because I think Rizzo can be the combination of Fielders hitting and Derrek Lee's fielding, doesn't mean I'm overly high on him ...

[Sammys Boombox]

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/1/6/2687814/prospects-in-the-andrew-cashner-anthony-rizzo-trade

 

Sickels:

 

Zach Cates, RHP: Cates was drafted in the third round in 2010, from Northeast Texas Community College. He is a 6-3, 200 pound right-hander, born December 17, 1989. Although he posted an unattractive 4.73 ERA in the Midwest League in 2011, his FIP was much better at 3.23, with a 111/53 K/BB in 118 innings and just four homers allowed.

 

Cates works with a 92-96 MPH fastball and a nasty changeup. His curveball needs work and he is still ironing out his mechanics, but I like his potential for growth. With a few tweaks this guy could really take off.I rate him as a Grade C+ prospect in the 2012 Baseball Prospect Book.

 

Anthony Rizzo, 1B: At age 22 he still has time to work out his flaws. Rizzo has excellent power and sound plate discipline, but his swing gets long and major league pitchers found the holes quickly. He's not going to hit .300 outside of the Pacific Coast League, but with some adjustments he should hit .260-.280 at his peak, with 25-30 homers and plenty of walks. Although error-prone at first base, his defense is considered very good due to soft hands, a strong arm, and surprising range.

 

Rizzo has more risk in his profile than many people realize, and if things go wrong he could turn into Chris Davis. On the other hand, if things go really right, he could develop into Ryan Howard. He will likely fall somewhere in between. Grade B+

 

Sounds like Cates could be a good reliever if he is in the mid-90s and has a good change up. If that third pitch never develops I'm sure he'll be moved to the pen.