Cashner and Na traded for Rizzo and Cates

[toonsterwu]

Toonster, yeah, I meant Destin Hood for Byrd. I always liked Tillman, saw him pitch in Norfolk a few times and in Baltimore once as well(one of his only good starts probably} but if we could get a Bridwell type arm for him, I'd consider that a win for us too.

 

I think the Nats, much as I think they need a starting CF that can lead off, will hold off on any major OF moves, so I really don't see them moving for Byrd. I think they want to hold RF open for Harper if needed.

 

Honestly, that might be the consideration they are making in the whole Fielder thing right now - when Harper is ready. I'm not sure they even love the idea of Werth in CF, much as they talk about it.

 

Oh, guess you are in the East Coast as well. I spent part of my childhood (very tiny part) near Norfolk, so for awhile, was a Mets fan, with Teufel and Kevin McReynolds cards.

Edited January 6, 2012 by toonsterwu

[davearm2]

Okay, I'm going to be negative Nancy (is there a negative associated with a guy)? Anyhow, again like the deal, but reading Sickels write up right now reminded me who I thought Rizzo was - Adam LaRoche.

 

Unfair, but it illustrates the point.

 

As 21 year olds:

Rizzo: .331/.404/.652/1.056 in AAA

LaRoche: .251/.305/.361/.666 in A+

 

Sure, don't disagree. There's higher pedigree with Rizzo, and there's higher potential. I was just pointing to what Sickels wrote on his likely prime - a .260-.280 hitter, 25-30 HR's, and plenty of walks, along with a solid glove at first. LaRoche put up those numbers from 06 to 2010 and was hurt last year.

 

Admittedly, this speaks to something else I used to talk about - that I think LaRoche was a bit under-rated. Not a star, but a very solid starting first baseman who always got left behind as teams looked for better or cheaper.

I may be underselling LaRoche, but ".260-.280 hitter, 25-30 HR's, and plenty of walks, along with a solid glove at first," coupled with 21 and 6 years of team control, sounds pretty fabulous.

[rocket]

Okay, I'm going to be negative Nancy (is there a negative associated with a guy)? Anyhow, again like the deal, but reading Sickels write up right now reminded me who I thought Rizzo was - Adam LaRoche.

 

Unfair, but it illustrates the point.

 

As 21 year olds:

Rizzo: .331/.404/.652/1.056 in AAA

LaRoche: .251/.305/.361/.666 in A+

 

Sure, don't disagree. There's higher pedigree with Rizzo, and there's higher potential. I was just pointing to what Sickels wrote on his likely prime - a .260-.280 hitter, 25-30 HR's, and plenty of walks, along with a solid glove at first. LaRoche put up those numbers from 06 to 2010 and was hurt last year.

 

sign me up for those numbers.

[El Duderino]

those numbers sound like derrek lee before we got him from the marlins

[jersey cubs fan]

Admittedly, this speaks to something else I used to talk about - that I think LaRoche was a bit under-rated. Not a star, but a very solid starting first baseman who always got left behind as teams looked for better or cheaper.

 

Well yeah, he was a 1.5-2.5 WAR player in his prime who went from making well below his value to in-line with his value pretty quickly. He's the type of player a Pittsburgh Pirates team would have to settle for on their way to 75 wins.

[ctcf]

Apparently Zach Cates really loves Jesus.

[imb]

Okay, I'm going to be negative Nancy (is there a negative associated with a guy)? Anyhow, again like the deal, but reading Sickels write up right now reminded me who I thought Rizzo was - Adam LaRoche.

 

Unfair, but it illustrates the point.

 

As 21 year olds:

Rizzo: .331/.404/.652/1.056 in AAA

LaRoche: .251/.305/.361/.666 in A+

 

Sure, don't disagree. There's higher pedigree with Rizzo, and there's higher potential. I was just pointing to what Sickels wrote on his likely prime - a .260-.280 hitter, 25-30 HR's, and plenty of walks, along with a solid glove at first. LaRoche put up those numbers from 06 to 2010 and was hurt last year.

 

sign me up for those numbers.

 

um, yes. for cashner? when we have a gaping hole at first base? And I was higher than most on Cashner until this year.

[XZero771679666304]

I just got back in to this news. I really thought we were in on Prince but you won't hear me complain about this at all.

 

I'm just shocked we got Rizzo for so little, and with a decent pitching prospect to boot. I know the SD had a lot of depth at the position after the Latos deal, but I was sure it would take a trade involving Garza to land Rizzo. I liked Cashner but I have had increasing doubts he'd ever be anything more then a short reliever. This is pretty awesome, really.

 

 

And it's nice we have something to agree on after a couple contentious days around here.

[davell]

2 things that may have hurt Rizzo's value and helped us in acquiring him are he struggled at the major league level, which is no big deal for a 21 year old. But, other teams got a better look at him as well and maybe they saw something they didn't like? Because Tampa certainly could have trumped what we gave up very easily, Toronto as well, and they were both rumored to be in on him. Secondly, minor league first basemen just don't carry as much value, in my opinion, as other positions. Up the middle guys and pitching are what's valued for the most part.

[ctcf]

Okay, I'm going to be negative Nancy (is there a negative associated with a guy)? Anyhow, again like the deal, but reading Sickels write up right now reminded me who I thought Rizzo was - Adam LaRoche.

 

Unfair, but it illustrates the point.

 

As 21 year olds:

Rizzo: .331/.404/.652/1.056 in AAA

LaRoche: .251/.305/.361/.666 in A+

 

Sure, don't disagree. There's higher pedigree with Rizzo, and there's higher potential. I was just pointing to what Sickels wrote on his likely prime - a .260-.280 hitter, 25-30 HR's, and plenty of walks, along with a solid glove at first. LaRoche put up those numbers from 06 to 2010 and was hurt last year.

 

sign me up for those numbers.

 

um, yes. for cashner? when we have a gaping hole at first base? And I was higher than most on Cashner until this year.

 

Still can't believe all it took was Cashner.

[davell]

Give Levine props for this as well, he had said it'd probably take some of our young relief pitching to get Rizzo.

[Rob]

 

um, yes. for cashner? when we have a gaping hole at first base? And I was higher than most on Cashner until this year.

 

Still can't believe all it took was Cashner.

 

I had always assumed Cashner would be the main piece going their direction, but I thought it would take another couple pieces... maybe Randy Wells and an interesting C level prospect.

 

The price was much better than I expected.

[ctcf]

 

um, yes. for cashner? when we have a gaping hole at first base? And I was higher than most on Cashner until this year.

 

Still can't believe all it took was Cashner.

 

I had always assumed Cashner would be the main piece going their direction, but I thought it would take another couple pieces... maybe Randy Wells and an interesting C level prospect.

 

The price was much better than I expected.

 

Especially when you consider that there's a decent case the Cubs got the better of the Cates/Na swap.

[davell]

On a big picture note, this offseason, Theo has acquired 3 lottery tickets and has evidently decided to play another one as well. Stewart, Wood, Volstad, and LaHair. How many, if any, do you guys see turning in a 3 WAR season in 2012 and becoming excellent trade bait or potentially long term answers for us? Personally, I think we'll see Wood and LaHair surprise, Stewart be on the bench by midseason and Volstad basically being the epitomy of a 5th starter.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Na *might* be a fourth outfielder. Cates is a legit, if long-shot, prospect. We definitely got the better end of that swap.

[Guest]

I like Wood and Stewart as 3 win players, Volstad as Jerome Williams reincarnated, and refuse to acknowledge LaHair's existence.

[treebird]

On a big picture note, this offseason, Theo has acquired 3 lottery tickets and has evidently decided to play another one as well. Stewart, Wood, Volstad, and LaHair. How many, if any, do you guys see turning in a 3 WAR season in 2012 and becoming excellent trade bait or potentially long term answers for us? Personally, I think we'll see Wood and LaHair surprise, Stewart be on the bench by midseason and Volstad basically being the epitomy of a 5th starter.

 

surprise whom? i think a lot of people are expecting a lot of travis wood. lahair producing would certainly be a surprise, though.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

On a big picture note, this offseason, Theo has acquired 3 lottery tickets and has evidently decided to play another one as well. Stewart, Wood, Volstad, and LaHair. How many, if any, do you guys see turning in a 3 WAR season in 2012 and becoming excellent trade bait or potentially long term answers for us? Personally, I think we'll see Wood and LaHair surprise, Stewart be on the bench by midseason and Volstad basically being the epitomy of a 5th starter.

 

I consider Wood on a very different level from the other three. Wood is a legit quality major leaguer right now, no reservations.

 

LaHair, I just don't know what the upside here is. Maybe he hits .280/350/450 or something crazy like that, but even then it's not like we'll get anything for him at the deadline. Then he walks. He's the purest definition of a stopgap.

 

Stewart is terrible and I hope he gets mouth cancer so he doesn't have to be in the lineup anymore.

 

Volstad is kind of the most lottery-tickety of the bunch. I could really see him being a useful BOR guy, or he could just be terrible and made to go away.

[Little Slide Rooter]

I like Wood and Stewart as 3 win players, Volstad as Jerome Williams reincarnated, and refuse to acknowledge LaHair's existence.

 

For one of the wiser and more level headed posters on this board, your over the top hatred toward LaHair is ammusing.

 

And wasn't Jerome Williams half way decent for one year for us before he fell off a cliff re-emerging as half way decent again last year.

[JGalt73]

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2012/1/6/2687814/prospects-in-the-andrew-cashner-anthony-rizzo-trade

 

Sickels:

 

Zach Cates, RHP: Cates was drafted in the third round in 2010, from Northeast Texas Community College. He is a 6-3, 200 pound right-hander, born December 17, 1989. Although he posted an unattractive 4.73 ERA in the Midwest League in 2011, his FIP was much better at 3.23, with a 111/53 K/BB in 118 innings and just four homers allowed.

 

Cates works with a 92-96 MPH fastball and a nasty changeup. His curveball needs work and he is still ironing out his mechanics, but I like his potential for growth. With a few tweaks this guy could really take off.I rate him as a Grade C+ prospect in the 2012 Baseball Prospect Book.

 

Anthony Rizzo, 1B: At age 22 he still has time to work out his flaws. Rizzo has excellent power and sound plate discipline, but his swing gets long and major league pitchers found the holes quickly. He's not going to hit .300 outside of the Pacific Coast League, but with some adjustments he should hit .260-.280 at his peak, with 25-30 homers and plenty of walks. Although error-prone at first base, his defense is considered very good due to soft hands, a strong arm, and surprising range.

 

Rizzo has more risk in his profile than many people realize, and if things go wrong he could turn into Chris Davis. On the other hand, if things go really right, he could develop into Ryan Howard. He will likely fall somewhere in between. Grade B+

[Rob]

I like Wood and Stewart as 3 win players, Volstad as Jerome Williams reincarnated, and refuse to acknowledge LaHair's existence.

 

LaHair is only getting a few months to try to build up potential trade value while Rizzo gets some seasoning at AAA (and we manipulate his service time and arbitration clock). It's a pretty bearable situation with some moderate potential for a reward and no real risk.

[toonsterwu]

On a big picture note, this offseason, Theo has acquired 3 lottery tickets and has evidently decided to play another one as well. Stewart, Wood, Volstad, and LaHair. How many, if any, do you guys see turning in a 3 WAR season in 2012 and becoming excellent trade bait or potentially long term answers for us? Personally, I think we'll see Wood and LaHair surprise, Stewart be on the bench by midseason and Volstad basically being the epitomy of a 5th starter.

 

My guess is that Volstad starts to show why he was so highly thought of, and builds on last season and becomes a very good "3". I'm still not sure I see the rest as key pieces long term, and even Volstad, considering his age, may not be a long term piece either.

[davell]

Yeah, Wood is the most legit of the 3, shouldn't have called him a lotto ticket guy, but I think if he proves himself to be more than a league average starter, it's a definite positive. Kyle, I disagree on LaHair, by the way. If he(obviously a major IF) was sporting an .800 OPS at the break for us, I think he'd have some solid trade value. Not top 100 prospect value, but moreso than what I think we'll get for Byrd, if he's currently dealt.

[toonsterwu]

I still find it interesting that Wood is considered the most legitimate of the three and Volstad is considered the biggest risk (or a bigger risk). But that horse has been beat to death.

[PrimeTime]

From Daily Herald article from Bruce, They just all came to the conclusion that Cashner will end up being a reliever and not a starter

 

 

“We believe Anthony has the potential to be a middle-of-the-order run producer for the Cubs for a long time. He still has some development left, but we feel that what he’s done at age 20 at Double-A and 21 at Triple-A was remarkable.”

 

“The way we see it, Bryan had a terrific year last year at Triple-A,” said Hoyer, noting LaHair’s 38 homers at the Cubs’ Class AAA Iowa affiliate. “He’s been terrific this winter in Venezuela. We see him as our first baseman.

 

“Let’s be candid. I don’t think I did Anthony any favors when I was GM of the Padres. We traded for him for Adrian Gonzalez. We called him up because we weren’t getting any first-base production at San Diego. It was too early, and it was a mistake on my part. I don’t think it did Anthony any favors. We think it’s likely he goes back to Triple-A, and Bryan’s our first baseman (this) year.”

 

“As with any trade, we gave up something very good to get Anthony Rizzo,” Hoyer said. “It was difficult to give up Andrew Cashner. He’s a player that as you gather information here, people think very highly of him. He’s obviously got a terrific power arm and a very good frame.

 

“The more that we did research and the more conversations we had, the conclusions internally after all those conversations, we felt like he was eventually going to end up in the bullpen as a reliever. Given where we are in our cycle, we feel like the ability to get six years of an everyday player like Anthony Rizzo was the right thing to do.”