Re: What would you deal Garza for?

[sneakypower]

it's not really just plate discipline with gose, because he did walk 65 times in 137 games. maybe he's too patient? swinging at the wrong pitches? i haven't seen him play so i don't know what the problem is, but it's not like he's putting up reggie abercrombie K/BB ratios.

here's a good explanation for his K totals:

But the biggest knock against Gose in 2011 has been his performance when behind in the count. Many scouts saw a young kid with plenty of tools who got himself out far too often.

 

A 62:154 walk-to-strikeout ratio with New Hampshire in 2011 reinforced that belief. At times it looked like Gose didn’t have a two-strike approach. And that’s because he didn’t.

 

The Blue Jays were so committed to getting Gose as much experience as possible with his new swing that they asked him to try and drive the ball in all situations, even when down in the count 0-2, when most would be simply trying to make contact with a defensive swing.

 

Gose was trying to muscle the ball to the gaps.

 

"We said let’s just let this guy fully integrate this new swing, these new mechanics, and we’ll see what the results are," LaCava said. "We haven’t concerned ourselves with a two-strike approach yet. That will come later."

http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2011/12/14/gose_feature/

[Tracer Bullet]

That colors things differently. Nice.

[TruffleShuffle]

travis snider sucks and has a terrible 'stache.

[sneakypower]

yes, and i don't want any part of Drabek either

[Outshined_One]

yes, and i don't want any part of Drabek either

 

I'd love Drabek as a buy low candidate. I think the Jays mishandled him last year. He's young, the talent's there, and a change of scenery could do him a lot of good.

 

I don't want a package around him, but if the Jays were to offer a package involving Marisnick, Nicolino, and Drabek for Garza, I'd be tempted. I'd want Sydergaard or McGuire instead of Drabek, but I wouldn't turn my nose up at him.

[Pushfrog98]

Since I don't keep up much with other teams minor league players (and most of ours), is the package we could potentially get for Garza better than the one we gave up?

[Tryptamine]

Is there really a tangible value difference between Gose and Marisnick? It seems to be the consensus that Gose has more upside, but also more doubt that he reaches it. If they're valued similarly then I'd be thrilled with Gose/Nicolino/McGuire. Gose has the potential to be what BJ Upton should have been. I just wish there was a way to get Nicolino and Syndergaard in the same package.

[Outshined_One]

Since I don't keep up much with other teams minor league players (and most of ours), is the package we could potentially get for Garza better than the one we gave up?

 

I think so. Going by memory, here's what we gave up and roughly what they were valued at the time:

 

RHP Chris Archer – B/B+ pitcher at the time, depending on whether you valued his upside or were worried about his control issues

SS Hak-Ju Lee – B/B- prospect with A- upside; great glove, good bat, questionable power, huge potential

OF Brandon Guyer – C+ prospect – Solid 4th OF, maybe a decent starting corner OF in his prime

Robinson Chirinos/Sam Fuld – Two C-level prospects who were filler with good backup potential

 

Keep in mind the Cubs got Fernando Perez and Zach Rosscup from the Rays in addition to Garza. Still, I think the Cubs could get a package better than that for Garza.

[CyHawk_Cub]

travis snider sucks and has a terrible 'stache.

 

So does your avatar...wait...guess I tend to think mustaches suck.

[Tryptamine]

Since I don't keep up much with other teams minor league players (and most of ours), is the package we could potentially get for Garza better than the one we gave up?

 

If the Cubs land 2 of Marisnick/Syndergaard/Gose/Nicolino/McGuire then I'd say it's at least on par. If they get 2+ another good piece then I think it's a clear win.

[TruffleShuffle]

yes, and i don't want any part of Drabek either

 

I'd love Drabek as a buy low candidate. I think the Jays mishandled him last year. He's young, the talent's there, and a change of scenery could do him a lot of good.

 

i don't really see how they mishandled him. he pitched well in the upper minors and in his major league cup of coffee in 2010, so he started 2011 with the jays. they gave him enough opportunity in the majors but he sucked balls, so they sent him to las vegas where he continued to suck balls. i think the only really debatable part is whether he should've been called back up for bullpen work in september.

[Outshined_One]

yes, and i don't want any part of Drabek either

 

I'd love Drabek as a buy low candidate. I think the Jays mishandled him last year. He's young, the talent's there, and a change of scenery could do him a lot of good.

 

i don't really see how they mishandled him. he pitched well in the upper minors and in his major league cup of coffee in 2010, so he started 2011 with the jays. they gave him enough opportunity in the majors but he sucked balls, so they sent him to las vegas where he continued to suck balls. i think the only really debatable part is whether he should've been called back up for bullpen work in september.

 

What bothered me was they skipped him directly from AA to the majors to start 2011. He did really well in AA in 2010 and performed well enough in his cup of coffee in 2010. Given that he'd be pitching in the AL East, I was hoping the Jays would have started him in AAA in a hitter-friendly environment (Las Vegas). The yo-yoing that happened in 2011 didn't help, either.

 

He clearly has control issues and they need to be worked out. But, again, he's the kind of young player I'd like to see included in a trade.

[Elrhino]

I would be surprised if Drabek isn't part of the package, but probably not the centerpiece. He's the young buy low guy Theo has gone after this offseason. His command went off kilter this year, but he's still got great stuff.

[davell]

For what it's worth, Bowden said we had asked Detroit for both Turner and Castellanos, plus more and Detroit had balked. My guess is we're waiting on one of these teams to cave in and add one more piece than they're offering. I've got it in the back of my head, by the way, that whatever type of package we're going after, it's likely to only include one guy that's currently on that team's 40 man roster, because we're so tight already when it comes to that. In Boston's case, Lavarnway, Middlebrooks, and Kalish are 40 man guys. For the Yanks, Betances, Montero, and Romine are. And for Toronto, Alvarez, Drabek, Arencibia, Rasmus, and Snider are.

[Post Count Padder]

For what it's worth, Bowden said we had asked Detroit for both Turner and Castellanos, plus more and Detroit had balked. My guess is we're waiting on one of these teams to cave in and add one more piece than they're offering. I've got it in the back of my head, by the way, that whatever type of package we're going after, it's likely to only include one guy that's currently on that team's 40 man roster, because we're so tight already when it comes to that. In Boston's case, Lavarnway, Middlebrooks, and Kalish are 40 man guys. For the Yanks, Betances, Montero, and Romine are. And for Toronto, Alvarez, Drabek, Arencibia, Rasmus, and Snider are.

Oh man if we get Turner, Castellanos and more I'll be thrilled. The ball is in our court and someone is gonna cave.

[82TonyM]

Is Jacob Turner the best prospect from any team that has been mentioned in these discussions?

[davell]

There's no names that have really been attached to the Yanks, so who knows? If Montero is being talked about, he's the top guy. Turner seems to be though. That said, Toronto has guys who have the abillity to be thought of as highly as, or even higher than Turner is, they're just younger.

[seanhopper]

I wonder if the teams negotiating with the Cubs are asking for a period of time to get an extension in place with Garza before they commit to the prospect package being rumored. If Toronto or Detroit can get Garza for 4-5yrs vs. 2yrs, then you would have to believe the package would be better.

[CubsInNC]

What are Turner's mechanics like? he's known to throw hard, and frequently, with mechanics issues, can cause early wear and tear on the arm. I've only seen him a couple times, but it was basically fresh out of HS, with the Whitecaps. Is he a likely future arm injury?

[davell]

I don't know of any red flags concerning his delivery or anything and Detroit has done a pretty solid job of limiting his innings from what I can tell.

[Outshined_One]

I don't know of any red flags concerning his delivery or anything and Detroit has done a pretty solid job of limiting his innings from what I can tell.

 

Pretty much, although he's had some minor shoulder and elbow soreness in the past. The Tigers shut him down immediately, though, and he seems no worse for wear from it.

[Guest]

yes, and i don't want any part of Drabek either

 

Glad I'm not the only one.

[ctcf]

You only trade garza if you want to give up on 2012. I don't want to give up. Therefore, I don't trade garza

 

I'm sorry I just really don't get how there's that much to give up on.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Just thought I'd float this thought out there. We seem to be pushing pretty hard to move Garza very soon despite the fact that theres no reason for the urgency. Garza is clearly the best available starting pitching option out there, and beyond him theres some decent mid rotation guys like Jackson, Floyd, Jurrjens, and McCarthy. Could the reason that Epsein wants to move Garza so fast be to get him off the market, and then all of the sudden teams still desperate for starting pitching will start to think about one Carlos Zambrano, who can potentially be better than any of the remaining options with a good rebound? For the right package, surely we'd take on at least 90-95% of the salary. Now i'm not saying that this is the reason that they'd trade Garza, just the reason that they seem to be trying to get it done so quickly.

[Conky]

You only trade garza if you want to give up on 2012. I don't want to give up. Therefore, I don't trade garza

 

I'm sorry I just really don't get how there's that much to give up on.

 

There's not. Half price hot-dogs are a bonus, though! Beer? we can dream...

Edited December 29, 2011 by Conky