MacPhail: Deal is dead (p. 297), stop posting, go outside

[fromthestretch]

Ok the stats have shown that Theriot doesnt take a lot of pitches per at bat (i was shocked seeing that), but like a lot of you have said, that is because he is given a lot of pitches to hit. I'm not saying he is a great hitter (he should be our #8 hitter), this argument started because some of you said Theriot brings a lot less to the table than Cedeno. I'm saying he has a way better eye at the plate than Cedeno. He doesn't swing at balls. He walks just as much as he strikes out. But you guys seem to think that this scrappy player cannot improve. A guy with great eye contact whom is fast and gets tons of pitches to hit.... I think he will only get better and this year if he is the everyday SS I dont see him batting under .285. But you guys insist that Cedeno will get better. The guy batted .200 for us. He looks [expletive] at the plate. Theriot will have a higher average than Cedeno, better OBP, walk more, strikeout less, and steal a lot more bases. Cedeno can just hit for more power. I think both suck and would like for us to get a SS, but there are no other options.

 

If Theriot indeed gets "tons of pitches to hit," then he looks even worse considering he posted a whopping .672 OPS with all those great pitches to hit.

 

The reason some people think that Cedeno can improve is that he's crushed the ball at AAA and winter ball and is three years younger. Theriot just turned 28. Being "scrappy" only gets you so far.

[CubColtPacer]

Ok the stats have shown that Theriot doesnt take a lot of pitches per at bat (i was shocked seeing that), but like a lot of you have said, that is because he is given a lot of pitches to hit. I'm not saying he is a great hitter (he should be our #8 hitter), this argument started because some of you said Theriot brings a lot less to the table than Cedeno. I'm saying he has a way better eye at the plate than Cedeno. He doesn't swing at balls. He walks just as much as he strikes out. But you guys seem to think that this scrappy player cannot improve. A guy with great eye contact whom is fast and gets tons of pitches to hit.... I think he will only get better and this year if he is the everyday SS I dont see him batting under .285. But you guys insist that Cedeno will get better. The guy batted .200 for us. He looks [expletive] at the plate. Theriot will have a higher average than Cedeno, better OBP, walk more, strikeout less, and steal a lot more bases. Cedeno can just hit for more power. I think both suck and would like for us to get a SS, but there are no other options.

 

How is Theriot going to get better though? He already is given every advantage in the world by having pitches thrown right down the middle to him. If he couldn't drive that ball consistently last year, what is going to make that change?

 

Cedeno has a clear avenue of change. He has to lay off of the pitches outside the strike zone, specifically the ones that are low and away. If he does that, he has shown in the minors and in the majors that he can hit pitches over the plate a long way, and he could hit for average if he forced pitches to come in with strikes more consistently.

 

If Cedeno doesn't make any adjustments, you're right that they will likely be around the same type of player with Theriot probably being slightly better (although we haven't started talking about defense yet, where Theriot is weak at SS). However, Cedeno has adjustments he could make that could make him a much better hitter than Theriot. Theriot has reached about the top of what his natural skills will take him. I understand that it's more frustrating to watch Cedeno have so much talent and have so much of it be unfulfilled with silly mistakes and that it's rewarding to see Theriot play the game hard and do as much as his skill set will allow, but if we're talking just about who is the better bet to be productive next year, the great likelihood is that it would be Cedeno, not Theriot.

[Rob]

OK assuming that statement is true....why do you think he is given a lot of pitches to hit? Probably because they know he is impatient and will likely ground the pitch to SS.

 

Theriot is not impatient. He just isnt a good hitter yet. It is not impatient when you take the first pitch down the middle, take the 2nd pitch down the middle, then are forced to hit the 3rd pitch down the middle or you'd strike out. They know he is not a power threat so they give him lots of pitches to hit, but if you have 2 strikes you need to swing at the 3rd one.

 

How many times are you going to have to change your argument before you realize that it's a flawed premise to begin with?

[DeuceBaseman]

If Theriot indeed gets "tons of pitches to hit," then he looks even worse considering he posted a whopping .672 OPS with all those great pitches to hit.

 

The reason some people think that Cedeno can improve is that he's crushed the ball at AAA and winter ball and is three years younger. Theriot just turned 28. Being "scrappy" only gets you so far.

 

I just think that I saw a lot of stuff I liked from Theriot this year. And I have seen no player worse than Cedeno has looked at the ML level. And the Cubs management must agree with me if they insist that Theriot is their starting SS. I hope Cedeno improves and his minors numbers translate to the majors, but for some reason they haven't and I dont know if they ever will. Now can we end this conversation because it isnt getting anywhere.

[17 Seconds]

OK assuming that statement is true....why do you think he is given a lot of pitches to hit? Probably because they know he is impatient and will likely ground the pitch to SS.

 

Theriot is not impatient. He just isnt a good hitter yet. It is not impatient when you take the first pitch down the middle, take the 2nd pitch down the middle, then are forced to hit the 3rd pitch down the middle or you'd strike out. They know he is not a power threat so they give him lots of pitches to hit, but if you have 2 strikes you need to swing at the 3rd one.

 

Isn't a good hitter yet? Dude is 28. And please spare me the "it was his first full year in the major garbage. He's never going to hit.

[17 Seconds]

If Theriot indeed gets "tons of pitches to hit," then he looks even worse considering he posted a whopping .672 OPS with all those great pitches to hit.

 

The reason some people think that Cedeno can improve is that he's crushed the ball at AAA and winter ball and is three years younger. Theriot just turned 28. Being "scrappy" only gets you so far.

 

And the Cubs management must agree with me

 

That pretty much confirms that you're wrong.

[BigbadB]

Ok the stats have shown that Theriot doesnt take a lot of pitches per at bat (i was shocked seeing that), but like a lot of you have said, that is because he is given a lot of pitches to hit. I'm not saying he is a great hitter (he should be our #8 hitter), this argument started because some of you said Theriot brings a lot less to the table than Cedeno. I'm saying he has a way better eye at the plate than Cedeno. He doesn't swing at balls. He walks just as much as he strikes out. But you guys seem to think that this scrappy player cannot improve. A guy with great eye contact whom is fast and gets tons of pitches to hit.... I think he will only get better and this year if he is the everyday SS I dont see him batting under .285. But you guys insist that Cedeno will get better. The guy batted .200 for us. He looks [expletive] at the plate. Theriot will have a higher average than Cedeno, better OBP, walk more, strikeout less, and steal a lot more bases. Cedeno can just hit for more power. I think both suck and would like for us to get a SS, but there are no other options.

 

How is Theriot going to get better though? He already is given every advantage in the world by having pitches thrown right down the middle to him. If he couldn't drive that ball consistently last year, what is going to make that change?

 

Cedeno has a clear avenue of change. He has to lay off of the pitches outside the strike zone, specifically the ones that are low and away. If he does that, he has shown in the minors and in the majors that he can hit pitches over the plate a long way, and he could hit for average if he forced pitches to come in with strikes more consistently.

 

If Cedeno doesn't make any adjustments, you're right that they will likely be around the same type of player with Theriot probably being slightly better (although we haven't started talking about defense yet, where Theriot is weak at SS). However, Cedeno has adjustments he could make that could make him a much better hitter than Theriot. Theriot has reached about the top of what his natural skills will take him. I understand that it's more frustrating to watch Cedeno have so much talent and have so much of it be unfulfilled with silly mistakes and that it's rewarding to see Theriot play the game hard and do as much as his skill set will allow, but if we're talking just about who is the better bet to be productive next year, the great likelihood is that it would be Cedeno, not Theriot.

 

Very well stated. I can't argue with any of this. That's why I like the idea of going with Cedeno and using Theriot off the bench.

[Sammy Sofa]

OK assuming that statement is true....why do you think he is given a lot of pitches to hit? Probably because they know he is impatient and will likely ground the pitch to SS.

 

Theriot is not impatient. He just isnt a good hitter yet. It is not impatient when you take the first pitch down the middle, take the 2nd pitch down the middle, then are forced to hit the 3rd pitch down the middle or you'd strike out. They know he is not a power threat so they give him lots of pitches to hit, but if you have 2 strikes you need to swing at the 3rd one.

 

You do realize that Theriot is almost 4 years older than Cedeno, right? Why would you put more faith in the guy closer to 30 with career mediocre minor league numbers in terms of drastically improving and not in the guy who is much younger and has shown he can put up great minor league numbers?

Edited January 28, 2008 by Sammy Sofa

[fromthestretch]

If Theriot indeed gets "tons of pitches to hit," then he looks even worse considering he posted a whopping .672 OPS with all those great pitches to hit.

 

The reason some people think that Cedeno can improve is that he's crushed the ball at AAA and winter ball and is three years younger. Theriot just turned 28. Being "scrappy" only gets you so far.

 

I just think that I saw a lot of stuff I liked from Theriot this year. And I have seen no player worse than Cedeno has looked at the ML level. And the Cubs management must agree with me if they insist that Theriot is their starting SS. I hope Cedeno improves and his minors numbers translate to the majors, but for some reason they haven't and I dont know if they ever will. Now can we end this conversation because it isnt getting anywhere.

 

Cedeno was 23 during his lousy 2006 season.

 

The Cubs insisting that Theriot is their starting shortstop does not make it a good decision. This is the organization that gave 609 plate appearances to Neifi Perez in 2005. Enough said.

[David]

I love when people bring "and the Cubs management agrees with me," into discussions.

 

Obviously, Cubs management has been highly competent for years now. Everything they do is right.

[inari]

OK assuming that statement is true....why do you think he is given a lot of pitches to hit? Probably because they know he is impatient and will likely ground the pitch to SS.

 

Theriot is not impatient. He just isnt a good hitter yet. It is not impatient when you take the first pitch down the middle, take the 2nd pitch down the middle, then are forced to hit the 3rd pitch down the middle or you'd strike out. They know he is not a power threat so they give him lots of pitches to hit, but if you have 2 strikes you need to swing at the 3rd one.

 

So you're giving him credit for consistently taking two easily hittable pitches and then not being able to do anything with the third easily hittable pitch? Are you serious?

Edited January 28, 2008 by inari

[JGalt73]

Now that the Orioles are apparently moving toward completing the Bedard deal, it figures that Baltimore's long-discussed conversation with the Cubs about Brian Roberts will be the next domino to fall. There are folks involved in these talks who are confident that the Cubs and Orioles will finish a Roberts deal eventually -- and he would be a tremendous acquisition for Chicago. The switch-hitting Roberts, like Kosuke Fukudome, would help to balance Cubs' lineup that was too right-handed last year, and no matter how Lou Piniella aligns the order, he would help make the top of the order very speedy and dangerous. Here's one possible lineup (with Mark DeRosa being a constant in the batting order but a moving part on the field):

 

1. LF Alfonso Soriano

2. 2B Roberts

3. 1B Derrek Lee

4. 3B Aramis Ramirez

5. RF/CF Fukudome

6. RF/Util Mark DeRosa

7. C Geovany Soto

8. SS Ryan Theriot

 

If Theriot plays regularly, the Cubs would have a 1-2-8 lineup combination capable of swiping 120 to 150 bases.

 

I guess he considers Pie in the deal?

[DenverCubs]

Now that the Orioles are apparently moving toward completing the Bedard deal, it figures that Baltimore's long-discussed conversation with the Cubs about Brian Roberts will be the next domino to fall. There are folks involved in these talks who are confident that the Cubs and Orioles will finish a Roberts deal eventually -- and he would be a tremendous acquisition for Chicago. The switch-hitting Roberts, like Kosuke Fukudome, would help to balance Cubs' lineup that was too right-handed last year, and no matter how Lou Piniella aligns the order, he would help make the top of the order very speedy and dangerous. Here's one possible lineup (with Mark DeRosa being a constant in the batting order but a moving part on the field):

 

1. LF Alfonso Soriano

2. 2B Roberts

3. 1B Derrek Lee

4. 3B Aramis Ramirez

5. RF/CF Fukudome

6. RF/Util Mark DeRosa

7. C Geovany Soto

8. SS Ryan Theriot

 

If Theriot plays regularly, the Cubs would have a 1-2-8 lineup combination capable of swiping 120 to 150 bases.

 

I guess he considers Pie in the deal?

Hey buddy, Didn't you know this is the "argue about whether Ryan Theriot is really bad or just kinda bad" thread? Oh wait...

[BigbadB]

Now that the Orioles are apparently moving toward completing the Bedard deal, it figures that Baltimore's long-discussed conversation with the Cubs about Brian Roberts will be the next domino to fall. There are folks involved in these talks who are confident that the Cubs and Orioles will finish a Roberts deal eventually -- and he would be a tremendous acquisition for Chicago. The switch-hitting Roberts, like Kosuke Fukudome, would help to balance Cubs' lineup that was too right-handed last year, and no matter how Lou Piniella aligns the order, he would help make the top of the order very speedy and dangerous. Here's one possible lineup (with Mark DeRosa being a constant in the batting order but a moving part on the field):

 

1. LF Alfonso Soriano

2. 2B Roberts

3. 1B Derrek Lee

4. 3B Aramis Ramirez

5. RF/CF Fukudome

6. RF/Util Mark DeRosa

7. C Geovany Soto

8. SS Ryan Theriot

 

If Theriot plays regularly, the Cubs would have a 1-2-8 lineup combination capable of swiping 120 to 150 bases.

 

I guess he considers Pie in the deal?

 

Also note that MacPhail was part of the Cubs organization for years and Cedeno has been mentioned more than just a few times as a piece in the deal and never once has Theriot's name been mentioned. Could it be that MacPhail knows what he would be getting in Theriot and doesn't have any interest at all, but is willing to gamble on a guy like Cedeno?

[C.C.]

Now that the Orioles are apparently moving toward completing the Bedard deal, it figures that Baltimore's long-discussed conversation with the Cubs about Brian Roberts will be the next domino to fall. There are folks involved in these talks who are confident that the Cubs and Orioles will finish a Roberts deal eventually -- and he would be a tremendous acquisition for Chicago. The switch-hitting Roberts, like Kosuke Fukudome, would help to balance Cubs' lineup that was too right-handed last year, and no matter how Lou Piniella aligns the order, he would help make the top of the order very speedy and dangerous. Here's one possible lineup (with Mark DeRosa being a constant in the batting order but a moving part on the field):

 

1. LF Alfonso Soriano

2. 2B Roberts

3. 1B Derrek Lee

4. 3B Aramis Ramirez

5. RF/CF Fukudome

6. RF/Util Mark DeRosa

7. C Geovany Soto

8. SS Ryan Theriot

 

If Theriot plays regularly, the Cubs would have a 1-2-8 lineup combination capable of swiping 120 to 150 bases.

 

I guess he considers Pie in the deal?

Hey buddy, Didn't you know this is the "argue about whether Ryan Theriot is really bad or just kinda bad" thread? Oh wait...

 

It's already been said that Fuku won't be playing center.

[David]

I like how he lists two guys with RF as primary positions. I wish we could just put Soriano in CF and Murton in LF (assuming he doesn't go in the Roberts deal).

 

2B - Roberts

LF - Murton

1B - Lee

3B - Ramirez

CF - Soriano

RF - Fukudome

C - Soto

SS - Theriot

 

Damn the fact that Soriano hurt his hammy early last year and happened to be slumping at the same time he was playing CF.

 

 

If we traded Murton in a package for Greene, though, and gave up Pie in one of the deals, I could live with some crap like Sam Fuld in CF.

[WrigleyinEngland]

If Theriot indeed gets "tons of pitches to hit," then he looks even worse considering he posted a whopping .672 OPS with all those great pitches to hit.

 

The reason some people think that Cedeno can improve is that he's crushed the ball at AAA and winter ball and is three years younger. Theriot just turned 28. Being "scrappy" only gets you so far.

 

And the Cubs management must agree with me

 

We've been losing for 100 fricking years why would agreeing with cubs management be a good place to make a point??

[C.C.]

I like how he lists two guys with RF as primary positions. I wish we could just put Soriano in CF and Murton in LF (assuming he doesn't go in the Roberts deal).

 

2B - Roberts

LF - Murton

1B - Lee

3B - Ramirez

CF - Soriano

RF - Fukudome

C - Soto

SS - Theriot

 

Damn the fact that Soriano hurt his hammy early last year and happened to be slumping at the same time he was playing CF.

 

 

If we traded Murton in a package for Greene, though, and gave up Pie in one of the deals, I could live with some crap like Sam Fuld in CF.

 

Never going to happen, wipe it from your mind.

[UK1679666180]

Arguing over which marginal player is less fringy is pointless, neither are or will likely be worthy of a starting position in their careers.

 

Even though Theriot has less range than Cedeno b/c he plays a couple steps in b/c of the weak arm, he is less likely to hurt the team defensively b/c of the accuracy and better hands.

 

I'm all for letting them battle it out from Feb. till April in Mesa, but if I was to guess, Cedeno b/c of that poor defense will end up as a utility guy with Theriot starting and the Cubs will need to insert and new body at SS to maximize their potential.

[BigbadB]

Arguing over which marginal player is less fringy is pointless, neither are or will likely be worthy of a starting position in their careers.

 

Even though Theriot has less range than Cedeno b/c he plays a couple steps in b/c of the weak arm, he is less likely to hurt the team defensively b/c of the accuracy and better hands.

 

I'm all for letting them battle it out from Feb. till April in Mesa, but if I was to guess, Cedeno b/c of that poor defense will end up as a utility guy with Theriot starting and the Cubs will need to insert and new body at SS to maximize their potential.

 

If the Roberts deal happens, DeRosa becomes the #1 option to play SS, IMO. Probably the weakest of the 3 defensively, but the big boost on offense makes it a no brainer for me, especially considering none of them sparkle on defense.

[DeuceBaseman]

On the Waddle and Silvy show on ESPN 1000 Crane Kenny said that Hendry has 2 big trades on the table and he thinks both should go through and he is excited about. And he hinted that they are not for starting pitching. Of course one has to be Roberts. The other maybe Greene. I dont think Byrd is a big name.

[inari]

Arguing over which marginal player is less fringy is pointless, neither are or will likely be worthy of a starting position in their careers.

 

Even though Theriot has less range than Cedeno b/c he plays a couple steps in b/c of the weak arm, he is less likely to hurt the team defensively b/c of the accuracy and better hands.

 

I'm all for letting them battle it out from Feb. till April in Mesa, but if I was to guess, Cedeno b/c of that poor defense will end up as a utility guy with Theriot starting and the Cubs will need to insert and new body at SS to maximize their potential.

 

If the Roberts deal happens, DeRosa becomes the #1 option to play SS, IMO. Probably the weakest of the 3 defensively, but the big boost on offense makes it a no brainer for me, especially considering none of them sparkle on defense.

 

Unfortunately I don't think Cubs management sees it the same way. I think DeRo could see some time at short, but certainly not more than Theriot.

[C.C.]

On the Waddle and Silvy show on ESPN 1000 Crane Kenny said that Hendry has 2 big trades on the table and he thinks both should go through and he is excited about. And he hinted that they are not for starting pitching. Of course one has to be Roberts. The other maybe Greene. I dont think Byrd is a big name.

 

 

That has been reported for about 6 weeks now.

[cubweiser03]

P/PA isnt an accurate analysis of patience, it shouldnt be used exclusivley. Soriano has a P/PA of 3.67 while Theriot has a P/PA of 3.53. So is Soriano more patient that Theriot now? Soriano swings and misses at a much higer rate and fouls off a lot more pitches. If Soriano didnt swing and miss or foul off so many pitches his P/PA would be dead in the water. How the hell he does this more freqeuently than other players is beyond me but he is 'rewarded' in the P/PA by swinging and fouling off pitches.

 

Theriot's P/PA is hurt because he makes 'too solid' of contact when he swings and puts the ball in play, not because he's impatient. Unfortunately i dont have any readily available stats such as swings/pitch or foul balls per PA, so sue me for relying on personal experience to make this opinion.

 

Theriot's ISOD is fine at 60. He needs to get on base via the hit more. One thing he can get better as is be more consistant at using all the fields and driving it to LF, he goes to RF too much and i believe that hurts his average.

Edited January 28, 2008 by cubweiser03

[CuseCubFan69]

Arguing over which marginal player is less fringy is pointless, neither are or will likely be worthy of a starting position in their careers.

 

Even though Theriot has less range than Cedeno b/c he plays a couple steps in b/c of the weak arm, he is less likely to hurt the team defensively b/c of the accuracy and better hands.

 

I'm all for letting them battle it out from Feb. till April in Mesa, but if I was to guess, Cedeno b/c of that poor defense will end up as a utility guy with Theriot starting and the Cubs will need to insert and new body at SS to maximize their potential.

 

If the Roberts deal happens, DeRosa becomes the #1 option to play SS, IMO. Probably the weakest of the 3 defensively, but the big boost on offense makes it a no brainer for me, especially considering none of them sparkle on defense.

 

If the Cubs don't acquire a SS I'd like to see "Mr. Sparkle" DeRosa get a shot in the spring.