MacPhail: Deal is dead (p. 297), stop posting, go outside

[inari]

Ummm have you seen Marmol pitch?? He is not as valuable as Bedard but he is close. Meaning that there is NO WAY I would trade Pie, Marmol and the others for Bedard and Roberts. Marmol is more valuable to us than Pie, or hill, or vitters. If you put Marmol in our rotation he is ahead of Hill. Plus like 5 years younger. But I would trade Pie, Hill, Murton, Cedeno, Colvin, Patterson, and Dempster for Bedard and Roberts.

 

Eh, just realized that he's a poster over here too. DeuceBaseman

 

My bad, man. But it was a pretty ridiculous statement. On no planet is Marmol anywhere near as valuable as Bedard.

 

 

Dude, what are you talking about? Marmol's value is not higher than Hill's or Bedard's. Not even close. That trade proposal of yours would be a gigantic disaster. Are you really getting fooled this easily by Bedard's 2007 season? He's good, but not that good. Hill is locked up for cheap. Bedard is expensive and only under contract for 2 more years. Not to mention he's almost 29 and has yet to pitch 200 innings in a season. Is Bedard better than Hill? Yes. Is he so much better that we offer a ridiculous package like that? Not even close.

 

What are we giving up exactly? Sorry I used "we".... What are the Cubs giving up exactly? I think Hill will be a good major leaguer, but he is already 27-28 years old so he isn't really young. Pie is the only other player in the deal who might be worth something to the Cubs but based on what I've seen from him, he really could be another Corey Patterson and "the cubs" might be better off just signing Lofton or putting Fukudome in CF and DeRosa in RF. Pie can be replaced easily. That being said, the rest in my offered trade are just garbage and will never have an impact on the Cubs. Cedeno? Theriot will play over him for the next few years, Theriot brings more to the table than Cedeno. Murton? Where whould he play? Patterson? They say he was the worst defensive 2B in all of baseball. Dempster is getting booed out of Wrigley every night, and people are still complaining about drafting Colvin so early. You have to give up some to get some. I actually think the trade would be something like Hill, Pie, Gallagher, Murton, Cedeno, Dempster, Patterson for Bedard and Roberts. And you guys wouldn't want that? None of those guys will turn out to be stars like Bedard and Roberts. Gallagher, Murton and Cedeno for Roberts is a steal for us...... Hill, Pie, Patterson, and Dempster for Bedard? In my opinion that is a steal for us as well. The package they are getting from Seattle could be better than that. Sorry I dont wanna argue about this anymore. It is my opinion that Bedard is a ridiculously good pitcher and doesnt compare to Hill. And I think that Marmol being a lot younger and could start for us if we chose would be a better starter than Hill and will soon be a stud closer is more valuable than Hill. Just my opinion.... anyways, the Mariners have Bedard and hopefully we can throw some type of Gallagher, Murton, Cedeno, Dempster package for Roberts and Payton.

 

But... sigh. No, never mind. It's just not worth it.

[David]

Theriot brings more to the table than Cedeno

 

Really? Like what?

Whenever I have a pot luck, Ryan always brings a hot side dish and a dessert. Ronny usually only brings a small bag of cookies.

 

If it's a picnic, then Theriot brings the Ketchup, Cedeno maybe the Relish and Mustard.

 

Neither brings the hot dogs & buns.

 

...only further confirming just how worthless Theriot is. You don't put ketchup on hot dogs.

[Soul]

Theriot brings more to the table than Cedeno

 

Really? Like what?

Whenever I have a pot luck, Ryan always brings a hot side dish and a dessert. Ronny usually only brings a small bag of cookies.

 

If it's a picnic, then Theriot brings the Ketchup, Cedeno maybe the Relish and Mustard.

 

Neither brings the hot dogs & buns.

 

...only further confirming just how worthless Theriot is. You don't put ketchup on hot dogs.

 

LOL, nice. 8-)

[UMFan83]

Can anyone with more prospect knowledge than me put Pie's prospect ranking into perspective. How highly rated is he compared to Cubs prospects over the last 20 years. If you had to rank the top prospects since 1988, where would Pie be? Please do not leave out someone just because they didn't make it in the bigs. I'm talking hype and expectations.

[waffle]

please end this pain. At this point closure is the only escape.

[Sterling30]

please end this pain. At this point closure is the only escape.

 

And so it begins: the Acceptance Stage.

[17 Seconds]

Ummm have you seen Marmol pitch?? He is not as valuable as Bedard but he is close. Meaning that there is NO WAY I would trade Pie, Marmol and the others for Bedard and Roberts. Marmol is more valuable to us than Pie, or hill, or vitters. If you put Marmol in our rotation he is ahead of Hill. Plus like 5 years younger. But I would trade Pie, Hill, Murton, Cedeno, Colvin, Patterson, and Dempster for Bedard and Roberts.

 

Eh, just realized that he's a poster over here too. DeuceBaseman

 

My bad, man. But it was a pretty ridiculous statement. On no planet is Marmol anywhere near as valuable as Bedard.

 

 

Dude, what are you talking about? Marmol's value is not higher than Hill's or Bedard's. Not even close. That trade proposal of yours would be a gigantic disaster. Are you really getting fooled this easily by Bedard's 2007 season? He's good, but not that good. Hill is locked up for cheap. Bedard is expensive and only under contract for 2 more years. Not to mention he's almost 29 and has yet to pitch 200 innings in a season. Is Bedard better than Hill? Yes. Is he so much better that we offer a ridiculous package like that? Not even close.

 

What are we giving up exactly? Sorry I used "we".... What are the Cubs giving up exactly? I think Hill will be a good major leaguer, but he is already 27-28 years old so he isn't really young. Pie is the only other player in the deal who might be worth something to the Cubs but based on what I've seen from him, he really could be another Corey Patterson and "the cubs" might be better off just signing Lofton or putting Fukudome in CF and DeRosa in RF. Pie can be replaced easily. That being said, the rest in my offered trade are just garbage and will never have an impact on the Cubs. Cedeno? Theriot will play over him for the next few years, Theriot brings more to the table than Cedeno. Murton? Where whould he play? Patterson? They say he was the worst defensive 2B in all of baseball. Dempster is getting booed out of Wrigley every night, and people are still complaining about drafting Colvin so early. You have to give up some to get some. I actually think the trade would be something like Hill, Pie, Gallagher, Murton, Cedeno, Dempster, Patterson for Bedard and Roberts. And you guys wouldn't want that? None of those guys will turn out to be stars like Bedard and Roberts. Gallagher, Murton and Cedeno for Roberts is a steal for us...... Hill, Pie, Patterson, and Dempster for Bedard? In my opinion that is a steal for us as well. The package they are getting from Seattle could be better than that. Sorry I dont wanna argue about this anymore. It is my opinion that Bedard is a ridiculously good pitcher and doesnt compare to Hill. And I think that Marmol being a lot younger and could start for us if we chose would be a better starter than Hill and will soon be a stud closer is more valuable than Hill. Just my opinion.... anyways, the Mariners have Bedard and hopefully we can throw some type of Gallagher, Murton, Cedeno, Dempster package for Roberts and Payton.

 

But... sigh. No, never mind. It's just not worth it.

 

Exactly. I was about to reply to him but then realized how ridiculous it was. Some people just don't understand that every player has value. Just because some players don't fit into our plans, doesn't mean that it's okay to just give them away recklessly. People also seem to completely forget about how important cost-controlled years are when building a team. Trading Hill in a package for Bedard would be useless.

[Soul]

I find that some Cub fans just generally think our players have little or no value. The "grass is greener" sort of attitude.

[Chocolate Milk]

"We" (normal people) think this sort of petty clarification is annoying. Everyone gets it, dude. Pick another battle or something. And of course it doesn't imply that someone thinks they have some choice in the matter. I seriously don't know what it is about message boards that turns people into officious literalists (sounds familiar). Everyone knows that it's a statement of fan affiliation, and that's it.

 

It implies exactly what I said it implies. And its a poor way to attempt to gain high ground in a discussion.

 

If you have a problem with what I write (or me personally, which seems to be pretty obvious), so much so that you have to attack me personally with condescending remarks, don't read what I write. Or just get over it and move on.

 

Who attacked you personally? He attacked what you wrote. To inform you, this isn't the first time someone has gone on the "we" rant around here. It's annoying and haltz was right on the money. My advice to you is to grow thicker skin.

[DeuceBaseman]

I find that some Cub fans just generally think our players have little or no value. The "grass is greener" sort of attitude.

 

Well based on the past, I kinda think they don't. I would rather trade some of these guys while they have value than wait 3 years and trade them when they don't. There have been so many guys we could have traded when they had value and instead we waited till their value was at their lowest point and got nothing. Patterson got us nothing, Sosa got us nothing, Prior got us nothing, Hairston, Izturis, Maddux, Barrett. I'm just saying based on some of these trades or releases, it shows that these guys did have little value. And I would think that a Corey patterson at that time would have a little more value than a Ronny Cedeno or Matt Murton at this time. If we trade Matt Murton to SD, we will get some low level prospect for him, thats it. I think Hill is good, and Pie is a highly ranked prospect, but you have to give something to get Bedard and Roberts! How can you not trade those guys for those 2 when it would clearly put us as the best team in the NL? Plus Theriot brings a lot more to the table than Cedeno. 10x better plate discipline. The ability to hit to all areas of the field. Oh and a batting average higher than .220. Plus better base running. But can we please just end this? It is my opinion and I don't think I'm the only one with it. I like some of our prospects and dont think we should just give them away, but Murton and cedeno are not prospects and most likely wont be on this team this year. My comments are not ridiculous, they are just not the same as your guys'.

[Tyrant]

I find that some Cub fans just generally think our players have little or no value. The "grass is greener" sort of attitude.

 

I find that some Cubs fans just generally think our players have a ton of value. The "every minor leaguer is going to be great because I haven't personally witnessed them fail yet" sort of attitude.

[17 Seconds]

I find that some Cub fans just generally think our players have little or no value. The "grass is greener" sort of attitude.

 

Plus Theriot brings a lot more to the table than Cedeno. 10x better plate discipline.

 

Umm, Theriot led the team in 1 pitch outs.

[CuseCubFan69]

I find that some Cub fans just generally think our players have little or no value. The "grass is greener" sort of attitude.

 

Plus Theriot brings a lot more to the table than Cedeno. 10x better plate discipline.

 

Umm, Theriot led the team in 1 pitch outs.

 

Which player faced more pitches per AB?

[DeuceBaseman]

I find that some Cub fans just generally think our players have little or no value. The "grass is greener" sort of attitude.

 

Plus Theriot brings a lot more to the table than Cedeno. 10x better plate discipline.

 

Umm, Theriot led the team in 1 pitch outs.

 

If that is true than I would be completely shocked. Because everytime I saw him bat he would be taking pitches till the count was full. That might be true but I still bet his pitches per at bat was more than most on the team.

[inari]

I find that some Cub fans just generally think our players have little or no value. The "grass is greener" sort of attitude.

 

Plus Theriot brings a lot more to the table than Cedeno. 10x better plate discipline.

 

Umm, Theriot led the team in 1 pitch outs.

 

If that is true than I would be completely shocked. Because everytime I saw him bat he would be taking pitches till the count was full. That might be true but I still bet his pitches per at bat was more than most on the team.

 

You'd be wrong.

[CubColtPacer]

I find that some Cub fans just generally think our players have little or no value. The "grass is greener" sort of attitude.

 

Plus Theriot brings a lot more to the table than Cedeno. 10x better plate discipline.

 

Umm, Theriot led the team in 1 pitch outs.

 

Which player faced more pitches per AB?

 

Cedeno.

 

P/PA:

Cedeno: 3.68

Theriot: 3.53

 

I would agree that Theriot has better plate discipline though. Theriot just swings at a lot of first pitch strikes, and since he's not a very good hitter that leads to a lot of easy outs. So Theriot has discipline, but not a lot of patience at the plate. Cedeno swings at a lot more outside the zone than Theriot, but is much more dangerous when he gets a pitch inside the zone.

[CubColtPacer]

I find that some Cub fans just generally think our players have little or no value. The "grass is greener" sort of attitude.

 

Plus Theriot brings a lot more to the table than Cedeno. 10x better plate discipline.

 

Umm, Theriot led the team in 1 pitch outs.

 

If that is true than I would be completely shocked. Because everytime I saw him bat he would be taking pitches till the count was full. That might be true but I still bet his pitches per at bat was more than most on the team.

 

Think of all the position players who were on the Cubs September roster. Theriot had the absolute worst P/PA of any of those players. The only position players behind him all year were Izturis (traded), Moore (traded and had only 5 AB's) and Fox (had only 14 AB's before being demoted).

 

And yes, Theriot did lead the team in first pitch outs, and it wasn't particularly close.

Edited January 28, 2008 by CubColtPacer

[17 Seconds]

I find that some Cub fans just generally think our players have little or no value. The "grass is greener" sort of attitude.

 

Plus Theriot brings a lot more to the table than Cedeno. 10x better plate discipline.

 

Umm, Theriot led the team in 1 pitch outs.

 

If that is true than I would be completely shocked. Because everytime I saw him bat he would be taking pitches till the count was full. That might be true but I still bet his pitches per at bat was more than most on the team.

 

Not only did Theriot lead the team in 1st pitch outs, but he was dead last in pitches per plate appearance among Cubs players with 200 or more at-bats. He's literally the exact opposite of what you said.

[Banedon]

I find that some Cub fans just generally think our players have little or no value. The "grass is greener" sort of attitude.

 

I find that some Cubs fans just generally think our players have a ton of value. The "every minor leaguer is going to be great because I haven't personally witnessed them fail yet" sort of attitude.

 

Yeah, I'm not sure you can make a clear generalization either way. A whole lot of extreme overvaluing/undervaluing goes on with fans, and I think that's not just Cub fans, it's sports fans.

[CyHawk_Cub]

I find that some Cub fans just generally think our players have little or no value. The "grass is greener" sort of attitude.

 

Plus Theriot brings a lot more to the table than Cedeno. 10x better plate discipline.

 

Umm, Theriot led the team in 1 pitch outs.

 

If that is true than I would be completely shocked. Because everytime I saw him bat he would be taking pitches till the count was full. That might be true but I still bet his pitches per at bat was more than most on the team.

 

Not only did Theriot lead the team in 1st pitch outs, but he was dead last in pitches per plate appearance among Cubs players with 200 or more at-bats. He's literally the exact opposite of what you said.

 

Yep...it is the "grit & hustle" of players like Theriot that blinds many to the truths of what they actually do production-wise... Guess many fans just like the romantic notion of a gym rat-type of guy making it in the bigs.

[DeuceBaseman]

I find that some Cub fans just generally think our players have little or no value. The "grass is greener" sort of attitude.

 

Plus Theriot brings a lot more to the table than Cedeno. 10x better plate discipline.

 

Umm, Theriot led the team in 1 pitch outs.

 

Which player faced more pitches per AB?

 

Cedeno.

 

P/PA:

Cedeno: 3.68

Theriot: 3.53

 

This is based on last year's mlb numbers. Cedeno only had 80 at bats. You also gotta look at OBP. Theriot's OBP of .326 is actually really good when you only bat .266. This means he took a lot of walks. Cedeno's OBP was like .230. Theriot's career P/PA is better than Cedeno's. Theriot is a very patient hitter, one of the only few on the Cubs. It's just when he swung at a ball, he didn't miss it often like most of the other Cubs, so his pitches per at bat were less. But like Nevin said, sometimes it is better to swing and miss or foul it off than hit it. I never saw Theriot swing at a pitch that wasnt close to the strike zone. I am shocked to see that his P/PA is lower than most the other guys, because every time i saw him play he was taking the first few pitches down the middle and working the count.

Edited January 28, 2008 by DeuceBaseman

[17 Seconds]

I find that some Cub fans just generally think our players have little or no value. The "grass is greener" sort of attitude.

 

Plus Theriot brings a lot more to the table than Cedeno. 10x better plate discipline.

 

Umm, Theriot led the team in 1 pitch outs.

 

If that is true than I would be completely shocked. Because everytime I saw him bat he would be taking pitches till the count was full. That might be true but I still bet his pitches per at bat was more than most on the team.

 

Not only did Theriot lead the team in 1st pitch outs, but he was dead last in pitches per plate appearance among Cubs players with 200 or more at-bats. He's literally the exact opposite of what you said.

 

Yep...it is the "grit & hustle" of players like Theriot that blinds many to the truths of what they actually do production-wise... Guess many fans just like the romantic notion of a gym rat-type of guy making it in the bigs.

 

Yup, and if that's what they want to do, then fine. Me? I want to win.

[inari]

I find that some Cub fans just generally think our players have little or no value. The "grass is greener" sort of attitude.

 

Plus Theriot brings a lot more to the table than Cedeno. 10x better plate discipline.

 

Umm, Theriot led the team in 1 pitch outs.

 

Which player faced more pitches per AB?

 

Cedeno.

 

P/PA:

Cedeno: 3.68

Theriot: 3.53

 

This is based on last year's mlb numbers. Cedeno only had 80 at bats. You also gotta look at OBP. Theriot's OBP of .326 is actually really good when you only bat .266. This means he took a lot of walks. Cedeno's OBP was like .230. Theriot's career P/PA is better than Cedeno's. Theriot is a very patient hitter, one of the only few on the Cubs. It's just when he swung at a ball, he didn't miss it often like most of the other Cubs, so his pitches per at bat were less. But like Nevin said, sometimes it is better to swing and miss or foul it off than hit it.

 

I'm speechless.

[BigbadB]

If that is true than I would be completely shocked. Because everytime I saw him bat he would be taking pitches till the count was full. That might be true but I still bet his pitches per at bat was more than most on the team.

 

Prepare to be shocked. Here is a list of non pitchers who grabbed a bat for the Cubs last year with a lower P/PA percentage than Theriot:

 

Cesar Izturis

Jake Fox

Scott Moore

 

Whew, that wore me out listing all those names.

 

And just for fun, here is the list of pitcher's who had a better P/PA than Theriot:

 

Carlos Marmol

Angel Guzman

Kerry Wood

Sean Marshall

Steve Tracshel

Jason Marquis

[Ding Dong Johnson]

I find that some Cub fans just generally think our players have little or no value. The "grass is greener" sort of attitude.

 

Plus Theriot brings a lot more to the table than Cedeno. 10x better plate discipline.

 

Umm, Theriot led the team in 1 pitch outs.

 

Which player faced more pitches per AB?

 

Cedeno.

 

P/PA:

Cedeno: 3.68

Theriot: 3.53

 

This is based on last year's mlb numbers. Cedeno only had 80 at bats. You also gotta look at OBP. Theriot's OBP of .326 is actually really good when you only bat .266. This means he took a lot of walks. Cedeno's OBP was like .230. Theriot's career P/PA is better than Cedeno's. Theriot is a very patient hitter, one of the only few on the Cubs. It's just when he swung at a ball, he didn't miss it often like most of the other Cubs, so his pitches per at bat were less. But like Nevin said, sometimes it is better to swing and miss or foul it off than hit it. I never saw Theriot swing at a pitch that wasnt close to the strike zone. I am shocked to see that his P/PA is lower than most the other guys, because every time i saw him play he was taking the first few pitches down the middle and working the count.

an IsoD of 060 isn't "really good"

Edited January 28, 2008 by Ding Dong Johnson