MacPhail: Deal is dead (p. 297), stop posting, go outside

[17 Seconds]

I find that some Cub fans just generally think our players have little or no value. The "grass is greener" sort of attitude.

 

Plus Theriot brings a lot more to the table than Cedeno. 10x better plate discipline.

 

Umm, Theriot led the team in 1 pitch outs.

 

Which player faced more pitches per AB?

 

Cedeno.

 

P/PA:

Cedeno: 3.68

Theriot: 3.53

 

Theriot is a very patient hitter, one of the only few on the Cubs. It's just when he swung at a ball, he didn't miss it often like most of the other Cubs, so his pitches per at bat were less.

 

Seriously, are you actually saying these things? This has to be a joke.

[BigbadB]

I find that some Cub fans just generally think our players have little or no value. The "grass is greener" sort of attitude.

 

Plus Theriot brings a lot more to the table than Cedeno. 10x better plate discipline.

 

Umm, Theriot led the team in 1 pitch outs.

 

Which player faced more pitches per AB?

 

Cedeno.

 

P/PA:

Cedeno: 3.68

Theriot: 3.53

 

Theriot is a very patient hitter, one of the only few on the Cubs. It's just when he swung at a ball, he didn't miss it often like most of the other Cubs, so his pitches per at bat were less.

 

Seriously, are you actually saying these things? This has to be a joke.

 

It's a failure to really understand what these numbers really say. The reason Theriot gets so many first pitch meatball pitches to swing at is because pitcher's aren't afraid of what Theriot might do to the ball when served a meatball. In fact, no other player on the Cubs does less with a meatball than Theriot.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

It's a failure to really understand what these numbers really say. The reason Theriot gets so many first pitch meatball pitches to swing at is because pitcher's aren't afraid of what Theriot might do to the ball when served a meatball. In fact, no other player on the Cubs does less with a meatball than Theriot.

not even Henry Blanco?

[DeuceBaseman]

Did you guys watch any games last year, or are you just throwing out stats? Theriot is not a power hitter and not a leadoff hitter, therefore his OBP isn't going to be as high as guys like Lee. But I remember Theriot always taking lots of pitches and getting on base. His stats probably went way down because of his last month or so. Then Cedeno would come up and everyone would laugh because there would be a first pitch ground out or 3 straight swings and misses as he spins himself into the ground. Everyone screaming at the tv "CEDENO BE PATIENT!!!" Turns to neighbor "why can cedeno be so patient at the minors but here he just gets nervous and swings at everything." You guys don't remember all this?

[inari]

Did you guys watch any games last year, or are you just throwing out stats? Theriot is not a power hitter and not a leadoff hitter, therefore his OBP isn't going to be as high as guys like Lee. But I remember Theriot always taking lots of pitches and getting on base. His stats probably went way down because of his last month or so. Then Cedeno would come up and everyone would laugh because there would be a first pitch ground out or 3 straight swings and misses as he spins himself into the ground. Everyone screaming at the tv "CEDENO BE PATIENT!!!" Turns to neighbor "why can cedeno be so patient at the minors but here he just gets nervous and swings at everything." You guys don't remember all this?

 

But he didn't and that's been proven. He wasn't a power hitter so he didn't have a good slugging percentage. He wasn't a leadoff hitter so he didn't post a high OBP. We've established he takes no pitches at all. So what in the world is your argument here?

[BigbadB]

It's a failure to really understand what these numbers really say. The reason Theriot gets so many first pitch meatball pitches to swing at is because pitcher's aren't afraid of what Theriot might do to the ball when served a meatball. In fact, no other player on the Cubs does less with a meatball than Theriot.

not even Henry Blanco?

 

That's probably a toss up, actually. But, Blanco is slated as a back up while Theriot is being handed a starting job for some unexplained reason.

[CyHawk_Cub]

Did you guys watch any games last year, or are you just throwing out stats? Theriot is not a power hitter and not a leadoff hitter, therefore his OBP isn't going to be as high as guys like Lee. But I remember Theriot always taking lots of pitches and getting on base. His stats probably went way down because of his last month or so. Then Cedeno would come up and everyone would laugh because there would be a first pitch ground out or 3 straight swings and misses as he spins himself into the ground. Everyone screaming at the tv "CEDENO BE PATIENT!!!" Turns to neighbor "why can cedeno be so patient at the minors but here he just gets nervous and swings at everything." You guys don't remember all this?

 

Uh oh....not the right thing to say 'round these parts.. :D

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Did you guys watch any games last year, or are you just throwing out stats? Theriot is not a power hitter and not a leadoff hitter, therefore his OBP isn't going to be as high as guys like Lee. But I remember Theriot always taking lots of pitches and getting on base. His stats probably went way down because of his last month or so. Then Cedeno would come up and everyone would laugh because there would be a first pitch ground out or 3 straight swings and misses as he spins himself into the ground. Everyone screaming at the tv "CEDENO BE PATIENT!!!" Turns to neighbor "why can cedeno be so patient at the minors but here he just gets nervous and swings at everything." You guys don't remember all this?

I've played and coached baseball my entire life, I've watch the vast majority of Cubs games over the past 30+ years, and I look at the numbers. Theriot is not as good as you think he is. Somebody here needs to watch more games, and I think it might be you.

[17 Seconds]

Did you guys watch any games last year, or are you just throwing out stats? Theriot is not a power hitter and not a leadoff hitter, therefore his OBP isn't going to be as high as guys like Lee. But I remember Theriot always taking lots of pitches and getting on base. His stats probably went way down because of his last month or so. Then Cedeno would come up and everyone would laugh because there would be a first pitch ground out or 3 straight swings and misses as he spins himself into the ground. Everyone screaming at the tv "CEDENO BE PATIENT!!!" Turns to neighbor "why can cedeno be so patient at the minors but here he just gets nervous and swings at everything." You guys don't remember all this?

 

Nobody is saying Cedeno is good. Him and Theriot are both terrible. At least Cedeno has an, albeit slim, chance to improve. Theriot is absolutely worthless. The problem is, he can't hir righties. He never could in the minors either, so much so that they tried to turn him into a switch hitter. That obviously didn't work so they scrapped the idea. Now he's in the majors and gues what? He still can't hit righties. He's not a patient hitter. Stop coming up with excuses why the stats are wrong. They aren't wrong. Theriot doesn't get on base, doesn't hit for average, doesn't hit for power, and doesn't play good defense. He's fast and that's about it. I like the the way Theriot plays and I think he's a good guy, but it's pretty obvious that he's just not that good. Theriot won't make it through this season as the starting shortstop.

[CubColtPacer]

Did you guys watch any games last year, or are you just throwing out stats? Theriot is not a power hitter and not a leadoff hitter, therefore his OBP isn't going to be as high as guys like Lee. But I remember Theriot always taking lots of pitches and getting on base. His stats probably went way down because of his last month or so. Then Cedeno would come up and everyone would laugh because there would be a first pitch ground out or 3 straight swings and misses as he spins himself into the ground. Everyone screaming at the tv "CEDENO BE PATIENT!!!" Turns to neighbor "why can cedeno be so patient at the minors but here he just gets nervous and swings at everything." You guys don't remember all this?

 

Theriot's P/PA by month:

 

April: 3.39

May: 3.99

June: 3.48

July: 3.59

August: 3.44

September: 3.30

 

Theriot's numbers didn't go down because of one month. In fact, the only reason they are as high as they are is because of one month. That was the only month in which Theriot was above the team average in. Every other month he was way below.

 

The thing is, Theriot was batting between Soriano and Lee most of the year. So when Theriot made an out on the first pitch, it wasn't very noticable because most people were concerned about the at-bats of Sori or Lee. When Theriot was patient, it was a lot more noticable. So the perception becomes that Theriot was really patient when he actually wasn't.

[fromthestretch]

This is based on last year's mlb numbers. Cedeno only had 80 at bats. You also gotta look at OBP. Theriot's OBP of .326 is actually really good when you only bat .266. This means he took a lot of walks. Cedeno's OBP was like .230.

 

49 walks is not even close to being a lot of walks, when you consider that he had 597 plate appearances.

 

I am shocked to see that his P/PA is lower than most the other guys, because every time i saw him play he was taking the first few pitches down the middle and working the count.

 

Did you only watch games in July?

[DeuceBaseman]

Did you guys watch any games last year, or are you just throwing out stats? Theriot is not a power hitter and not a leadoff hitter, therefore his OBP isn't going to be as high as guys like Lee. But I remember Theriot always taking lots of pitches and getting on base. His stats probably went way down because of his last month or so. Then Cedeno would come up and everyone would laugh because there would be a first pitch ground out or 3 straight swings and misses as he spins himself into the ground. Everyone screaming at the tv "CEDENO BE PATIENT!!!" Turns to neighbor "why can cedeno be so patient at the minors but here he just gets nervous and swings at everything." You guys don't remember all this?

 

But he didn't and that's been proven. He wasn't a power hitter so he didn't have a good slugging percentage. He wasn't a leadoff hitter so he didn't post a high OBP. We've established he takes no pitches at all. So what in the world is your argument here?

 

I'm saying he has a good eye at the plate. Way better than Cedeno's. And one stat can prove that. Theriot has just about the same amount of walks as strikeouts. That is very rare at the ML level. Only a handfull can do that. Besides guys like Bonds, Helton and Pujols who have 10x more Walks than Strikeouts, it seems to be that most major leaguers have like double the strikeouts. Cedeno has 5x as many strikeouts as walks, and that is an understatement.

[abuck1220]

guys, he remembers theriot getting on base. which do you think is more dependable -- the stats or this guy's memory? i think you know the answer.

[CuseCubFan69]

I find that some Cub fans just generally think our players have little or no value. The "grass is greener" sort of attitude.

 

Plus Theriot brings a lot more to the table than Cedeno. 10x better plate discipline.

 

Umm, Theriot led the team in 1 pitch outs.

 

Which player faced more pitches per AB?

 

Cedeno.

 

P/PA:

Cedeno: 3.68

Theriot: 3.53

 

Theriot is a very patient hitter, one of the only few on the Cubs. It's just when he swung at a ball, he didn't miss it often like most of the other Cubs, so his pitches per at bat were less.

 

Seriously, are you actually saying these things? This has to be a joke.

 

It's a failure to really understand what these numbers really say. The reason Theriot gets so many first pitch meatball pitches to swing at is because pitcher's aren't afraid of what Theriot might do to the ball when served a meatball. In fact, no other player on the Cubs does less with a meatball than Theriot.

 

That first pitch fastball might be his best chance to drive a ball, much like his 2-0 and 3-1 counts. He may not do it well but it does seem like he he's doing what he suppose to be doing. I'm curious on how many swings and misses he has compared to Cedeno, along with balls put in play per swing. Cedeno did a nice job of fouling off 2 strike pitches the few times I saw him but I don't know his breakdown of his actual stats.

[fromthestretch]

Did you guys watch any games last year, or are you just throwing out stats? Theriot is not a power hitter and not a leadoff hitter, therefore his OBP isn't going to be as high as guys like Lee. But I remember Theriot always taking lots of pitches and getting on base.

 

I'm sorry, but the stats are more accurate than your memory. The stats actually show that he indeed is not a patient hitter and that he did not get on base at a decent rate.

[inari]

Did you guys watch any games last year, or are you just throwing out stats? Theriot is not a power hitter and not a leadoff hitter, therefore his OBP isn't going to be as high as guys like Lee. But I remember Theriot always taking lots of pitches and getting on base. His stats probably went way down because of his last month or so. Then Cedeno would come up and everyone would laugh because there would be a first pitch ground out or 3 straight swings and misses as he spins himself into the ground. Everyone screaming at the tv "CEDENO BE PATIENT!!!" Turns to neighbor "why can cedeno be so patient at the minors but here he just gets nervous and swings at everything." You guys don't remember all this?

 

But he didn't and that's been proven. He wasn't a power hitter so he didn't have a good slugging percentage. He wasn't a leadoff hitter so he didn't post a high OBP. We've established he takes no pitches at all. So what in the world is your argument here?

 

I'm saying he has a good eye at the plate. Way better than Cedeno's. And one stat can prove that. Theriot has just about the same amount of walks as strikeouts. That is very rare at the ML level. Only a handfull can do that. Besides guys like Bonds, Helton and Pujols who have 10x more Walks than Strikeouts, it seems to be that most major leaguers have like double the strikeouts. Cedeno has 5x as many strikeouts as walks, and that is an understatement.

 

That stat proves... nothing. It's worthless and there's no reason to care about it. All that proves is that he doesn't strike out much because he's grounding out on the first or second pitch so dang frequently.

 

He doesn't hit for power.

He doesn't get on base.

He doesn't take a lot of pitches.

 

Okay, maybe he has a good eye. Who cares if it doesn't translate into results?

Edited January 28, 2008 by inari

[CubColtPacer]

Did you guys watch any games last year, or are you just throwing out stats? Theriot is not a power hitter and not a leadoff hitter, therefore his OBP isn't going to be as high as guys like Lee. But I remember Theriot always taking lots of pitches and getting on base. His stats probably went way down because of his last month or so. Then Cedeno would come up and everyone would laugh because there would be a first pitch ground out or 3 straight swings and misses as he spins himself into the ground. Everyone screaming at the tv "CEDENO BE PATIENT!!!" Turns to neighbor "why can cedeno be so patient at the minors but here he just gets nervous and swings at everything." You guys don't remember all this?

 

But he didn't and that's been proven. He wasn't a power hitter so he didn't have a good slugging percentage. He wasn't a leadoff hitter so he didn't post a high OBP. We've established he takes no pitches at all. So what in the world is your argument here?

 

I'm saying he has a good eye at the plate. Way better than Cedeno's. And one stat can prove that. Theriot has just about the same amount of walks as strikeouts. That is very rare at the ML level. Only a handfull can do that. Besides guys like Bonds, Helton and Pujols who have 10x more Walks than Strikeouts, it seems to be that most major leaguers have like double the strikeouts. Cedeno has 5x as many strikeouts as walks, and that is an understatement.

 

It doesn't matter if he has a good eye at the plate. He still only walks at an average rate because pitchers just throw him strike after strike because they know that Theriot will ground out most of the time. A 1 pitch weak groundout is the pitcher's best result he can possibly get, and Theriot provided plenty of that last year.

[C.C.]

Did you guys watch any games last year, or are you just throwing out stats? Theriot is not a power hitter and not a leadoff hitter, therefore his OBP isn't going to be as high as guys like Lee. But I remember Theriot always taking lots of pitches and getting on base. His stats probably went way down because of his last month or so. Then Cedeno would come up and everyone would laugh because there would be a first pitch ground out or 3 straight swings and misses as he spins himself into the ground. Everyone screaming at the tv "CEDENO BE PATIENT!!!" Turns to neighbor "why can cedeno be so patient at the minors but here he just gets nervous and swings at everything." You guys don't remember all this?

 

Nobody is saying Cedeno is good. Him and Theriot are both terrible. At least Cedeno has an, albeit slim, chance to improve. Theriot is absolutely worthless. The problem is, he can't hir righties. He never could in the minors either, so much so that they tried to turn him into a switch hitter. That obviously didn't work so they scrapped the idea. Now he's in the majors and gues what? He still can't hit righties. He's not a patient hitter. Stop coming up with excuses why the stats are wrong. They aren't wrong. Theriot doesn't get on base, doesn't hit for average, doesn't hit for power, and doesn't play good defense. He's fast and that's about it. I like the the way Theriot plays and I think he's a good guy, but it's pretty obvious that he's just not that good. Theriot won't make it through this season as the starting shortstop.

 

Nice name n00b.

[fromthestretch]

Did you guys watch any games last year, or are you just throwing out stats? Theriot is not a power hitter and not a leadoff hitter, therefore his OBP isn't going to be as high as guys like Lee. But I remember Theriot always taking lots of pitches and getting on base. His stats probably went way down because of his last month or so. Then Cedeno would come up and everyone would laugh because there would be a first pitch ground out or 3 straight swings and misses as he spins himself into the ground. Everyone screaming at the tv "CEDENO BE PATIENT!!!" Turns to neighbor "why can cedeno be so patient at the minors but here he just gets nervous and swings at everything." You guys don't remember all this?

 

But he didn't and that's been proven. He wasn't a power hitter so he didn't have a good slugging percentage. He wasn't a leadoff hitter so he didn't post a high OBP. We've established he takes no pitches at all. So what in the world is your argument here?

 

I'm saying he has a good eye at the plate. Way better than Cedeno's. And one stat can prove that. Theriot has just about the same amount of walks as strikeouts. That is very rare at the ML level. Only a handfull can do that. Besides guys like Bonds, Helton and Pujols who have 10x more Walks than Strikeouts, it seems to be that most major leaguers have like double the strikeouts. Cedeno has 5x as many strikeouts as walks, and that is an understatement.

 

That doesn't make him a good offensive player. High strikeout totals do not necessarily mean that a player is bad offensively. If so, that makes Ryan Howard the worst hitter ever.

[UMFan83]

Did you guys watch any games last year, or are you just throwing out stats? Theriot is not a power hitter and not a leadoff hitter, therefore his OBP isn't going to be as high as guys like Lee. But I remember Theriot always taking lots of pitches and getting on base. His stats probably went way down because of his last month or so. Then Cedeno would come up and everyone would laugh because there would be a first pitch ground out or 3 straight swings and misses as he spins himself into the ground. Everyone screaming at the tv "CEDENO BE PATIENT!!!" Turns to neighbor "why can cedeno be so patient at the minors but here he just gets nervous and swings at everything." You guys don't remember all this?

 

But he didn't and that's been proven. He wasn't a power hitter so he didn't have a good slugging percentage. He wasn't a leadoff hitter so he didn't post a high OBP. We've established he takes no pitches at all. So what in the world is your argument here?

 

I'm saying he has a good eye at the plate. Way better than Cedeno's. And one stat can prove that. Theriot has just about the same amount of walks as strikeouts. That is very rare at the ML level. Only a handfull can do that. Besides guys like Bonds, Helton and Pujols who have 10x more Walks than Strikeouts, it seems to be that most major leaguers have like double the strikeouts. Cedeno has 5x as many strikeouts as walks, and that is an understatement.

 

Juan Pierres BB/K ratios:

0.90

0.85

0.92

1.29

1.57

 

Does this mean Pierre is or ever was a patient hitter?

[DeuceBaseman]

Ok the stats have shown that Theriot doesnt take a lot of pitches per at bat (i was shocked seeing that), but like a lot of you have said, that is because he is given a lot of pitches to hit. I'm not saying he is a great hitter (he should be our #8 hitter), this argument started because some of you said Theriot brings a lot less to the table than Cedeno. I'm saying he has a way better eye at the plate than Cedeno. He doesn't swing at balls. He walks just as much as he strikes out. But you guys seem to think that this scrappy player cannot improve. A guy with great eye contact whom is fast and gets tons of pitches to hit.... I think he will only get better and this year if he is the everyday SS I dont see him batting under .285. But you guys insist that Cedeno will get better. The guy batted .200 for us. He looks [expletive] at the plate. Theriot will have a higher average than Cedeno, better OBP, walk more, strikeout less, and steal a lot more bases. Cedeno can just hit for more power. I think both suck and would like for us to get a SS, but there are no other options.

[UMFan83]

Ok the stats have shown that Theriot doesnt take a lot of pitches per at bat (i was shocked seeing that), but like a lot of you have said, that is because he is given a lot of pitches to hit. I'm not saying he is a great hitter (he should be our #8 hitter), this argument started because some of you said Theriot brings a lot less to the table than Cedeno. I'm saying he has a way better eye at the plate than Cedeno. He doesn't swing at balls. He walks just as much as he strikes out. But you guys seem to think that this scrappy player cannot improve. A guy with great eye contact whom is fast and gets tons of pitches to hit.... I think he will only get better and this year if he is the everyday SS I dont see him batting under .285. But you guys insist that Cedeno will get better. The guy batted .200 for us. He looks [expletive] at the plate. Theriot will have a higher average than Cedeno, better OBP, walk more, strikeout less, and steal a lot more bases. Cedeno can just hit for more power. I think both suck and would like for us to get a SS, but there are no other options.

 

OK assuming that statement is true....why do you think he is given a lot of pitches to hit? Probably because they know he is impatient and will likely ground the pitch to SS.

[SouthSideRyan]

 

I'm saying he has a good eye at the plate. Way better than Cedeno's. And one stat can prove that. Theriot has just about the same amount of walks as strikeouts. That is very rare at the ML level. Only a handfull can do that. Besides guys like Bonds, Helton and Pujols who have 10x more Walks than Strikeouts, it seems to be that most major leaguers have like double the strikeouts. Cedeno has 5x as many strikeouts as walks, and that is an understatement.

 

But who cares?

 

Looking at stuff like that leads to getting worthless sacks like Juan Pierre. Besides guys like Bonds, Helton, and Pujols, the people who are close to a 1:1 ratio are all punchless hitters who don't strike out cause they're too busy grounding out weakly to the 2nd baseman.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Ok the stats have shown that Theriot doesnt take a lot of pitches per at bat (i was shocked seeing that), but like a lot of you have said, that is because he is given a lot of pitches to hit. I'm not saying he is a great hitter (he should be our #8 hitter), this argument started because some of you said Theriot brings a lot less to the table than Cedeno. I'm saying he has a way better eye at the plate than Cedeno. He doesn't swing at balls. He walks just as much as he strikes out. But you guys seem to think that this scrappy player cannot improve. A guy with great eye contact whom is fast and gets tons of pitches to hit.... I think he will only get better and this year if he is the everyday SS I dont see him batting under .285. But you guys insist that Cedeno will get better. The guy batted .200 for us. He looks [expletive] at the plate. Theriot will have a higher average than Cedeno, better OBP, walk more, strikeout less, and steal a lot more bases. Cedeno can just hit for more power. I think both suck and would like for us to get a SS, but there are no other options.

Ichee-yaaaaaawaayyyyyykkdkweopri

[DeuceBaseman]

OK assuming that statement is true....why do you think he is given a lot of pitches to hit? Probably because they know he is impatient and will likely ground the pitch to SS.

 

Theriot is not impatient. He just isnt a good hitter yet. It is not impatient when you take the first pitch down the middle, take the 2nd pitch down the middle, then are forced to hit the 3rd pitch down the middle or you'd strike out. They know he is not a power threat so they give him lots of pitches to hit, but if you have 2 strikes you need to swing at the 3rd one.