NL Exec: Watch out for Cubs in Santana Sweepstakes (Pie)

[javy knows my name]

I would not include Hill or Pie unless Santana signed an extension.

 

I've been on the Pie bangwagon since the beginning and it would hurt to see him go to another team, but I would entertain it for a Santana or Miggy deal ONLY IF long term extensions where signed.

 

Does anyone think the Cubs could do Marshall, Gallagher, Colvin, and mid/low level prospect for Santana? I'd love to see the Cubs pull a deal where they don't have to give up Pie or Hill.

OH MY GOD. NO. NO. NO. NO.

Do you know who Johan Santana is?! This is the best pitcher out there, period. Not the best pitcher on the trade market. Not the best pitcher who is a free agent next year. He is the best pitcher in the major leagues.

The Yankees trump your offer with Phil Hughes. Marshall, Gallagher, Colvin and garbage don't get you Miguel Tejada plus all of his salary. This is just insanity. WHY would the twins do your deal? Please, I just want one reason. If trades like this got done, the league would be full of either teams with 13 AAAA-ers or teams with 5 stud pitchers and 8 elite hitters. Please.

 

First off, I didn't say it was likely. I said it was prefered. Secondly, when Team A trades a player because they can't afford him they usually come up short on talent. Very rarely do you get all you can when teams know you have to trade the player. Granted, we are talking about Johan Santana and the likelihood of the Twins getting taken for a ride or slim to none.

 

I don't believe that what I offered was garbage. I'm certainly not saying that any player I listed is as highly touted, or has a higher ceiling then Hughes does. That's not to say that I don't think the players I mentioned have value. And I believe that the players have more value then most here believe.

 

If the Yankees give up Hughes, Kennedy, and Melky. They're basically giving up a possible #1 SP, #4 or 5 SP, and an average CF. While the Cubs don't have a possible #1 to give up, they could give enough SP to fill the middle/back end of a rotation (see Pierre, Juan trade) and still include young, experienced ML talent in any of Murton/Cedeno/Theriot/Fontenot. Or could give up someone like Patterson, who I think will be a starter in MLB.

 

Again, I'm not saying the Cubs could "with out a doubt" get Santana for one of these packages, I'm just saying they should explore it.

There is no reason to explore this. There is no "young, experienced ML talent" in this group - (Murton/Cedeno/Theriot/Fontenot)

These are Yankee pipe-dreams. I thought Cubs fans were better than this. I don't think the Twins get this done with Hughes, Kennedy and Melky, let alone with guys that we don't want or need.

 

Well, apparently that's what's being offered. So, it's that or Ellsbury and Lester from BoSox. If that's not good enough for you, or the Twins then they can keep him and lose him and get a couple picks at the end of next year.

 

I don't think that's what the Twins want. I think they want the best value available. Hughes may be the best single player they can get, but when was the last time you saw a team drop their top 5-6 prospects to get a guy?

 

Pipedream? The pipedream is expecting a team to give up every prospect in their system.

 

Like I initially stated, the Twins will in no way get back equal value when trading a player like Johan Santana. It rarely happens that you get equal talent. Especially when teams know you're shopping that player.

 

One final thing. All of Murton/Cedeno/Theriot/Fontenot have experience. They have been on the ML roster, have played in games. That my friend is experience and each and every one of them is an experienced MLB player.

They have no value. Since you did not specify that you would offer an experienced MLB player with no value, I felt like your trade proposal was lacking.

[CubFanPhilly]

*Waits for the inevitable "Johan Santana isn't really much better than Rich Hill" post*

 

OK, I'll bite. Santana is obviously much better than Hill. But I'd keep Hill and pass on Santana. Assuming you can sign Santana at all, he'll cost $16-17 mil/year and the prospects you gave up to obtain him. Over the same time period Hill and those prospects (those that pan out anyway) cost a small fraction of Santana's price. Is Santana plus Pie/Murton/Colvin (whichever low cost OF you an plug in) better than Hill plus whatever OF or SS bat you can buy for $16-17 mil?

 

Examples:

[Hill + Fukudome + $5 mil.] vs [santana + Murton]

[HIll + Tejada + $3 mil. - Pie or Murton/Marshall/Marmol (whatever the package is to obtain Tejada)] vs. [santana + Pie/Murton]

[Hill + Crawford + $6 mil - Pie/Marmol/Cedeno] vs. [santana + Colvin/Patterson]

 

I'd be interested if the package was something revolving around 3 or 4 of the this group: Pie, Murton, Marmol, Marshall, Patterson, Gallagher, Veal, Donaldson, & Colvin.

 

I agree that the Twins probably insist on Hill, and I'd pass.

[cbbryan]

I would not include Hill or Pie unless Santana signed an extension.

 

I've been on the Pie bangwagon since the beginning and it would hurt to see him go to another team, but I would entertain it for a Santana or Miggy deal ONLY IF long term extensions where signed.

 

Does anyone think the Cubs could do Marshall, Gallagher, Colvin, and mid/low level prospect for Santana? I'd love to see the Cubs pull a deal where they don't have to give up Pie or Hill.

OH MY GOD. NO. NO. NO. NO.

Do you know who Johan Santana is?! This is the best pitcher out there, period. Not the best pitcher on the trade market. Not the best pitcher who is a free agent next year. He is the best pitcher in the major leagues.

The Yankees trump your offer with Phil Hughes. Marshall, Gallagher, Colvin and garbage don't get you Miguel Tejada plus all of his salary. This is just insanity. WHY would the twins do your deal? Please, I just want one reason. If trades like this got done, the league would be full of either teams with 13 AAAA-ers or teams with 5 stud pitchers and 8 elite hitters. Please.

 

First off, I didn't say it was likely. I said it was prefered. Secondly, when Team A trades a player because they can't afford him they usually come up short on talent. Very rarely do you get all you can when teams know you have to trade the player. Granted, we are talking about Johan Santana and the likelihood of the Twins getting taken for a ride or slim to none.

 

I don't believe that what I offered was garbage. I'm certainly not saying that any player I listed is as highly touted, or has a higher ceiling then Hughes does. That's not to say that I don't think the players I mentioned have value. And I believe that the players have more value then most here believe.

 

If the Yankees give up Hughes, Kennedy, and Melky. They're basically giving up a possible #1 SP, #4 or 5 SP, and an average CF. While the Cubs don't have a possible #1 to give up, they could give enough SP to fill the middle/back end of a rotation (see Pierre, Juan trade) and still include young, experienced ML talent in any of Murton/Cedeno/Theriot/Fontenot. Or could give up someone like Patterson, who I think will be a starter in MLB.

 

Again, I'm not saying the Cubs could "with out a doubt" get Santana for one of these packages, I'm just saying they should explore it.

There is no reason to explore this. There is no "young, experienced ML talent" in this group - (Murton/Cedeno/Theriot/Fontenot)

These are Yankee pipe-dreams. I thought Cubs fans were better than this. I don't think the Twins get this done with Hughes, Kennedy and Melky, let alone with guys that we don't want or need.

 

Well, apparently that's what's being offered. So, it's that or Ellsbury and Lester from BoSox. If that's not good enough for you, or the Twins then they can keep him and lose him and get a couple picks at the end of next year.

 

I don't think that's what the Twins want. I think they want the best value available. Hughes may be the best single player they can get, but when was the last time you saw a team drop their top 5-6 prospects to get a guy?

 

Pipedream? The pipedream is expecting a team to give up every prospect in their system.

 

Like I initially stated, the Twins will in no way get back equal value when trading a player like Johan Santana. It rarely happens that you get equal talent. Especially when teams know you're shopping that player.

 

One final thing. All of Murton/Cedeno/Theriot/Fontenot have experience. They have been on the ML roster, have played in games. That my friend is experience and each and every one of them is an experienced MLB player.

They have no value. Since you did not specify that you would offer an experienced MLB player with no value, I felt like your trade proposal was lacking.

 

They have no value in your opinion, which I respect.

 

I just happen to disagree.

[Guest]

Though the AL Central was no slouch.

 

Oh yeah, I wasn't trying to say that. I was just saying it wasn't as good as the AL East. Doesn't really matter what division in the AL you play in, it's going to be easier when you go to the NL because you get to face the pitcher.

Edited November 29, 2007 by soccer10k

[cbbryan]

*Waits for the inevitable "Johan Santana isn't really much better than Rich Hill" post*

 

OK, I'll bite. Santana is obviously much better than Hill. But I'd keep Hill and pass on Santana. Assuming you can sign Santana at all, he'll cost $16-17 mil/year and the prospects you gave up to obtain him. Over the same time period Hill and those prospects (those that pan out anyway) cost a small fraction of Santana's price. Is Santana plus Pie/Murton/Colvin (whichever low cost OF you an plug in) better than Hill plus whatever OF or SS bat you can buy for $16-17 mil?

 

Examples:

[Hill + Fukudome + $5 mil.] vs [santana + Murton]

[HIll + Tejada + $3 mil. - Pie or Murton/Marshall/Marmol (whatever the package is to obtain Tejada)] vs. [santana + Pie/Murton]

[Hill + Crawford + $6 mil - Pie/Marmol/Cedeno] vs. [santana + Colvin/Patterson]

 

I'd be interested if the package was something revolving around 3 or 4 of the this group: Pie, Murton, Marmol, Marshall, Patterson, Gallagher, Veal, Donaldson, & Colvin.

 

I agree that the Twins probably insist on Hill, and I'd pass.

 

This may be more of what I'm thinking as well. All things being equal I would probably part with Hill and Pie for Santana, but would that limit your availability to fill an offensive position?

 

Also, I wouldn't trade Pie, or Hill for Tejada. 2-3 years ago, yes, but not today.

[CuseCubFan69]

*Waits for the inevitable "Johan Santana isn't really much better than Rich Hill" post*

 

OK, I'll bite. Santana is obviously much better than Hill. But I'd keep Hill and pass on Santana. Assuming you can sign Santana at all, he'll cost $16-17 mil/year and the prospects you gave up to obtain him. Over the same time period Hill and those prospects (those that pan out anyway) cost a small fraction of Santana's price. Is Santana plus Pie/Murton/Colvin (whichever low cost OF you an plug in) better than Hill plus whatever OF or SS bat you can buy for $16-17 mil?

 

Examples:

[Hill + Fukudome + $5 mil.] vs [santana + Murton]

[HIll + Tejada + $3 mil. - Pie or Murton/Marshall/Marmol (whatever the package is to obtain Tejada)] vs. [santana + Pie/Murton]

[Hill + Crawford + $6 mil - Pie/Marmol/Cedeno] vs. [santana + Colvin/Patterson]

 

I'd be interested if the package was something revolving around 3 or 4 of the this group: Pie, Murton, Marmol, Marshall, Patterson, Gallagher, Veal, Donaldson, & Colvin.

 

I agree that the Twins probably insist on Hill, and I'd pass.

 

What are Hills 2007 stats compared to Santana's?

[Tracer Bullet]

I would not include Hill or Pie unless Santana signed an extension.

 

I've been on the Pie bangwagon since the beginning and it would hurt to see him go to another team, but I would entertain it for a Santana or Miggy deal ONLY IF long term extensions where signed.

 

Does anyone think the Cubs could do Marshall, Gallagher, Colvin, and mid/low level prospect for Santana? I'd love to see the Cubs pull a deal where they don't have to give up Pie or Hill.

OH MY GOD. NO. NO. NO. NO.

Do you know who Johan Santana is?! This is the best pitcher out there, period. Not the best pitcher on the trade market. Not the best pitcher who is a free agent next year. He is the best pitcher in the major leagues.

The Yankees trump your offer with Phil Hughes. Marshall, Gallagher, Colvin and garbage don't get you Miguel Tejada plus all of his salary. This is just insanity. WHY would the twins do your deal? Please, I just want one reason. If trades like this got done, the league would be full of either teams with 13 AAAA-ers or teams with 5 stud pitchers and 8 elite hitters. Please.

 

First off, I didn't say it was likely. I said it was prefered. Secondly, when Team A trades a player because they can't afford him they usually come up short on talent. Very rarely do you get all you can when teams know you have to trade the player. Granted, we are talking about Johan Santana and the likelihood of the Twins getting taken for a ride or slim to none.

 

I don't believe that what I offered was garbage. I'm certainly not saying that any player I listed is as highly touted, or has a higher ceiling then Hughes does. That's not to say that I don't think the players I mentioned have value. And I believe that the players have more value then most here believe.

 

If the Yankees give up Hughes, Kennedy, and Melky. They're basically giving up a possible #1 SP, #4 or 5 SP, and an average CF. While the Cubs don't have a possible #1 to give up, they could give enough SP to fill the middle/back end of a rotation (see Pierre, Juan trade) and still include young, experienced ML talent in any of Murton/Cedeno/Theriot/Fontenot. Or could give up someone like Patterson, who I think will be a starter in MLB.

 

Again, I'm not saying the Cubs could "with out a doubt" get Santana for one of these packages, I'm just saying they should explore it.

There is no reason to explore this. There is no "young, experienced ML talent" in this group - (Murton/Cedeno/Theriot/Fontenot)

These are Yankee pipe-dreams. I thought Cubs fans were better than this. I don't think the Twins get this done with Hughes, Kennedy and Melky, let alone with guys that we don't want or need.

 

Well, apparently that's what's being offered. So, it's that or Ellsbury and Lester from BoSox. If that's not good enough for you, or the Twins then they can keep him and lose him and get a couple picks at the end of next year.

 

I don't think that's what the Twins want. I think they want the best value available. Hughes may be the best single player they can get, but when was the last time you saw a team drop their top 5-6 prospects to get a guy?

 

Pipedream? The pipedream is expecting a team to give up every prospect in their system.

 

Like I initially stated, the Twins will in no way get back equal value when trading a player like Johan Santana. It rarely happens that you get equal talent. Especially when teams know you're shopping that player.

 

One final thing. All of Murton/Cedeno/Theriot/Fontenot have experience. They have been on the ML roster, have played in games. That my friend is experience and each and every one of them is an experienced MLB player.

They have no value. Since you did not specify that you would offer an experienced MLB player with no value, I felt like your trade proposal was lacking.

 

That's just wrong. I would be shocked if every GM was as stupid as Hendry and though that Cedeno's 1 year in the majors at age 22 clearly indicates that he can't play at this level, despite what he's done at AAA the 2 years surrounding that year. I also don't think every GM is stupid enough to ignore what Murton's done at this level (and in AAA), including his .900+ OPS in the 2nd half of each of the last 2 seasons. Theriot and Fontenot suck.

 

I'm not saying those 4 guys have any chance of landing you Santana, but to say none of them has value is just wrong. Since Cedeno & Murton are still "young" and both have at least a year's worth of ML ABs, you must be objecting to the "talent" portion of the definition. I guess we'll just have to disagree if you think neither of them has any talent at all.

[nilodnayr]

Does anyone think the Cubs could do Marshall, Gallagher, Colvin, and mid/low level prospect for Santana? I'd love to see the Cubs pull a deal where they don't have to give up Pie or Hill.

 

I would think that the Twins would want as good a pitcher as they could get, and Hill would most likely be the centerpiece of the deal. I don't think Marshall or Gallagher have the appeal that Rich Hill does. I would not trade Hill unless in was for a better pitcher.

 

Also, the Twins have like 17 ready-now young pitchers that are better than Marshall.

[nilodnayr]

 

That's just wrong. I would be shocked if every GM was as stupid as Hendry and though that Cedeno's 1 year in the majors at age 22 clearly indicates that he can't play at this level, despite what he's done at AAA the 2 years surrounding that year. I also don't think every GM is stupid enough to ignore what Murton's done at this level (and in AAA), including his .900+ OPS in the 2nd half of each of the last 2 seasons. Theriot and Fontenot suck.

 

I'm not saying those 4 guys have any chance of landing you Santana, but to say none of them has value is just wrong. Since Cedeno & Murton are still "young" and both have at least a year's worth of ML ABs, you must be objecting to the "talent" portion of the definition. I guess we'll just have to disagree if you think neither of them has any talent at all.

 

I think BTC was using a hyperoble. His point is that in a trade for Santana, those players have very little value.

[Backtobanks]

As long as you have the Red Sox - Yankees paranoia going, the Twins will insist on and get any prospects they want. As a back up plan, the Twins have the West Coast (Angels - Dodgers) paranoia. These four teams have the young players and the money to lead the Santana/Cabrera sweepstakes.

[UMFan83]

As long as the Cardinals aren't involved, or I guess any other NLC team, I have no interest in making a trade for Santana. We might have a $150 million payroll if we do and still not be World Series contenders.

[jersey cubs fan]

I swear to god, if the Yankees trade Melky freaking Cabrera and their 3rd or 4th best young pitcher, for Santana, I'm going to slip. I cannot believe how much value so many people apparantly put on Melky freaking Cabrera.

[CUBZ99]

As long as you have the Red Sox - Yankees paranoia going, the Twins will insist on and get any prospects they want. As a back up plan, the Twins have the West Coast (Angels - Dodgers) paranoia. These four teams have the young players and the money to lead the Santana/Cabrera sweepstakes.

 

I'm not so sure. The Cubs may match up very well with the Twins. I think many of us undervalue Hill. In only his first full year, Hill posted a 1.19 WHIP and a 3.92 ERA. That is not too shabby at all. Hill is cheap for another year or two and could be a solid #2. (He would be an immediate upgrade over Garza, Silva) If I'm the Twins I look real hard at a guy that put up those numbers in the majors in his first full year.

[Elrhino]

I would be much more hesitant to spend money and resources on Santana instead of an offensive player if not for the fact that all the offensive players currently attainable (at least those linked to the Cubs) are utter crap. Now, if it was a question of Cabrerra or Santana, I pick Cabrerra, but sorry, I think Fukodome struggles to crack the .800 OPS marker as a corner outfielder in the MLB. Santana is a great pitcher, and I'lll take my chances with great players. And if the Cubs end up with an overplus of starting pitchers, all the more valuable come end of July and trade deadline time to aquire a bat.

[Mephistopheles]

Melky Cabrera's a stud.

 

 

And by stud I mean his best use is as a nail head projecting from a wall to hang Derek Jeter's jockstrap on.

[jersey cubs fan]

Melky Cabrera's a stud.

 

 

And by stud I mean his best use is as a nail head projecting from a wall to hang Derek Jeter's jockstrap on.

 

:lol:

 

Seriously though, you wouldn't know it here. I mean, Cano has legit support for being highly touted, seeing as how he's been productive and all. But Melky isn't even better than Matt Murton, yet he's viewed as their best trading chip and the one guy they will consider dealing away for a hall of famer. I swear they pull this off every couple years, talking up somebody until everybody really believes that guy is worth something.

 

Just another reason why you should start your young cheap players whenever possible, because you never know if somebody else is going to fall in love with them when they see them play.

[BigbadB]

I love the thought of Santana in a Cubs uniform, but the only Santana the Cubs would trade for is Ervin. Why? Because of the same crazy and idiotic reasons the Cubs are looking for lefty power bats for RF.

 

Hendry likes a good lefty pitcher, but he doesn't want a whole rotation of them. Sure, Hill or Lilly could be part of the deal that landed Santana, but I don't see them going that route. As funny as it sounds, I think the reason Marshall got pulled from the rotation and Dempster is getting a look in the rotation is because they don't want 3 lefties in the rotation.

 

Here's a thought, though. San Diego is probably not going to get Peavy signed to an extension. They need outfield help and they have a huge hole at 2b.

[CuseCubFan69]

I swear to god, if the Yankees trade Melky freaking Cabrera and their 3rd or 4th best young pitcher, for Santana, I'm going to slip. I cannot believe how much value so many people apparantly put on Melky freaking Cabrera.

 

I don't understand either. They certainly can sell their average prospects better than anyone else in baseball. I'm worried they might get involved in the Fukedome sweepstakes if they do make this trade.

[JeffH]

Here's a thought, though. San Diego is probably not going to get Peavy signed to an extension. They need outfield help and they have a huge hole at 2b.

 

Antonelli, Matt

[St.Paul Cub]

I love the thought of Santana in a Cubs uniform, but the only Santana the Cubs would trade for is Ervin. Why? Because of the same crazy and idiotic reasons the Cubs are looking for lefty power bats for RF.

 

Hendry likes a good lefty pitcher, but he doesn't want a whole rotation of them. Sure, Hill or Lilly could be part of the deal that landed Santana, but I don't see them going that route. As funny as it sounds, I think the reason Marshall got pulled from the rotation and Dempster is getting a look in the rotation is because they don't want 3 lefties in the rotation.

 

Here's a thought, though. San Diego is probably not going to get Peavy signed to an extension. They need outfield help and they have a huge hole at 2b.

 

I think you might be onto something, especially with not wanting 3 lefties in the rotation. That being said I think Hill and Pie would be appealing to the Twins. Since Garza is gone, if they trade Santana they'll need one proven pitcher and probably another prospect. Pie might have some appeal as they could have Young as a corner OF. I'd love to hang onto Hill and Pie, but Santana would give us a dominant pitching staff and a player of his caliber is very tempting.

[BigbadB]

Here's a thought, though. San Diego is probably not going to get Peavy signed to an extension. They need outfield help and they have a huge hole at 2b.

 

Antonelli, Matt

 

I'll be shocked if he's with the big club opening day. None of our 2b's are guys who block Antonelli. I think I heard the Padres lost Blum also. Infante would be a guy they could use to hold down 2b until Antonelli is ready and then as a back up later. Obviously, Infante would not be one of the major trading chips for Peavy, however.

[Abe Frohman]

When Melky Cabrera's name comes up in trade talks, I can't help but think about Ricky Ledee. Remember when their was talk of Sosa leaving Chicago for the Yankees, and there was going to be a deal involving Ledee? Supposedly he was a can't miss prospect/young player - much like Cabrera.

 

The Yankees are good at spinning those young OFers.

[nilodnayr]

I love these two intermingled conversations...

 

a)hating on everyone for thinking Melky is anything but a 4th OF (which is absolutely true)

b)talking about a Peavy trade and how the pads could use one of our 2b as a stopgap for Antonelli

 

The irony is delicious.

[Post Count Padder]

Melky Cabrera's a stud.

 

 

And by stud I mean his best use is as a nail head projecting from a wall to hang Derek Jeter's jockstrap on.

 

:lol:

 

Seriously though, you wouldn't know it here. I mean, Cano has legit support for being highly touted, seeing as how he's been productive and all. But Melky isn't even better than Matt Murton, yet he's viewed as their best trading chip and the one guy they will consider dealing away for a hall of famer. I swear they pull this off every couple years, talking up somebody until everybody really believes that guy is worth something.

 

Just another reason why you should start your young cheap players whenever possible, because you never know if somebody else is going to fall in love with them when they see them play.

I know what you mean. I hate that the NY media and fans think Melky is some Godly center fielder only worth trading for a really big name.

[abuck1220]

Melky Cabrera's a stud.

 

 

And by stud I mean his best use is as a nail head projecting from a wall to hang Derek Jeter's jockstrap on.

 

a yankee fan friend of mine said that they twins should do a trade centered around melky because if melky can start for the yankees, surely he's good enough for the twins.