NL Exec: Watch out for Cubs in Santana Sweepstakes (Pie)

[Abe Frohman]

What if the Cubs offered Pie, Prior, Cedeno and Marshall? That package has bigger upside for the Twins than anything the other teams are offering. Minny gets an immediate 4/5 starter in Marshall, a young SS with upside in Cedeno, and all of Pie's potential. Plus, the huge upside of Prior if he returns to health.

 

If you think about it, that offer probably wouldn't fly for a couple reasons - mainly because none of the players the Twins would receive are really players they can count on. Prior has not been healthy since 2003, and hasn't shown that he is close to pitching at a dependable level throughout a complete season. Marshall was dropped from the Cubs rotation, even though he was fairly dependable most of the season. Pie has great tools and plenty of potential, but his professional statistics show he doesn't really handle LHP, even though he would be an excellent defender in CF. Cedeno has better potential after a great season in AAA, but has shown little plate discipline at the ML level. In their favor, both Pie and Cedeno are very young and have good experience for their age.

 

Plus, Soriano missed almost 30 games and had just 70 RBI. You think if he's healthy all year you'll get at least 90 RBI out of him.

 

Agree - I expect better seasons from Lee and Soriano in 2008.

[rocket]

offense is our biggest hole this offseason, no question. but you don't let that prevent you from acquiring the best pitcher in all of baseball if the opportunity presents itself.

[Yanksfan1523]

Ok, I'll bring it up. How do you get Santana to waive his NTC? I would love to see him go to the Cubs, but will hendry do another 8/150-160 deal?

[Roast]

but will hendry do another 8/150-160 deal?

 

Hendry is all about crappy contracts. The question is if the trib or whoever buys us will ALLOW him to do so.

[nikao]

The Twins also need offense more than anything, so while Hill or Lilly (probably the former due to contract) would be nice, the Twins would like a young impact bat--as many as possible. I'd say Hill, Pie, and maybe one other solid IF prospect might get consideration. I'd be somewhat wary of Santana--his numbers dropped off last year and he'll be looking for big years/money.

[AllStarMe]

Getting Santana seems pretty far fetched, but if we could put together a package the twins like and could work out an extension I'd say go for it. Prior/Pie/Hill/one of the extra MIF we've got lying around, maybe that would get it done. Then ink Fukudome and call it an offseason. With Z and Johan in the same rotation, not only would it be the strongest in the NL, but we'd pretty much become the new Venezuelan national team. I don't know if that's a viable market for mlb gear... does Hugo Chavez allow teams to sell their products there?

[cbbryan]

I would not include Hill or Pie unless Santana signed an extension.

 

I've been on the Pie bangwagon since the beginning and it would hurt to see him go to another team, but I would entertain it for a Santana or Miggy deal ONLY IF long term extensions where signed.

 

Does anyone think the Cubs could do Marshall, Gallagher, Colvin, and mid/low level prospect for Santana? I'd love to see the Cubs pull a deal where they don't have to give up Pie or Hill.

[Abe Frohman]

Does anyone think the Cubs could do Marshall, Gallagher, Colvin, and mid/low level prospect for Santana? I'd love to see the Cubs pull a deal where they don't have to give up Pie or Hill.

 

I would think that the Twins would want as good a pitcher as they could get, and Hill would most likely be the centerpiece of the deal. I don't think Marshall or Gallagher have the appeal that Rich Hill does. I would not trade Hill unless in was for a better pitcher.

[cbbryan]

Does anyone think the Cubs could do Marshall, Gallagher, Colvin, and mid/low level prospect for Santana? I'd love to see the Cubs pull a deal where they don't have to give up Pie or Hill.

 

I would think that the Twins would want as good a pitcher as they could get in the deal, and Hill would most likely be the centerpiece of the deal. I don't think Marshall or Gallagher have the appeal that Rich Hill does. I would not trade Hill unless in was for a better pitcher.

 

I agree, I wouldn't trade Hill unless it was for an upgrade at SP.

 

My thoughts on the trade is that you want to add to your depth to make a run. While Santana is clearly a better pitcher then Hill, it would make more sense to me to trade more prospects as opposed to trading out of your current rotation. Unless it's the bottom of the rotation with Marquis, Marshall, or Dumpster. I just don't see the Twins taking on the contract of Marquis.

 

Again, I don't know that a proposal like above would be enough, but it's worth throwing out there.

[Abe Frohman]

I agree, I wouldn't trade Hill unless it was for an upgrade at SP.

 

My thoughts on the trade is that you want to add to your depth to make a run. While Santana is clearly a better pitcher then Hill, it would make more sense to me to trade more prospects as opposed to trading out of your current rotation. Unless it's the bottom of the rotation with Marquis, Marshall, or Dumpster. I just don't see the Twins taking on the contract of Marquis.

 

Again, I don't know that a proposal like above would be enough, but it's worth throwing out there.

 

Well, the way I see it is you make trades to get better....depending on your situation. The Twins, it seems, will be losing one of the best pitchers in baseball. If they hang on to him and can't get an extension, they lose a lot. If they deal him and get a bunch of quality players that they have financial control over for low salaries - they win. That's why they are going to pick the best deal out there.

 

That proposal that doesn't include Rich Hill does not compete with what other teams are offering for him. At the same time, I think Hill and a couple other quality young ballplayers are as good or better than what the Yanks and Red Sox are offering - with the added bonus of the Twins not having to face him except possibly in Interleague play.

 

If the Cubs traded Hill, Prior, and if need be Pie or Patterson - and get Santana WITH an extension for even $18 mil a year - they are a much better team. Both teams win.

[KingCubsFan]

*Waits for the inevitable "Johan Santana isn't really much better than Rich Hill" post*

[cbbryan]

I agree, I wouldn't trade Hill unless it was for an upgrade at SP.

 

My thoughts on the trade is that you want to add to your depth to make a run. While Santana is clearly a better pitcher then Hill, it would make more sense to me to trade more prospects as opposed to trading out of your current rotation. Unless it's the bottom of the rotation with Marquis, Marshall, or Dumpster. I just don't see the Twins taking on the contract of Marquis.

 

Again, I don't know that a proposal like above would be enough, but it's worth throwing out there.

 

Well, the way I see it is you make trades to get better....depending on your situation. The Twins, it seems, will be losing one of the best pitchers in baseball. If they hang on to him and can't get an extension, they lose a lot. If they deal him and get a bunch of quality players that they have financial control over for low salaries - they win. That's why they are going to pick the best deal out there.

 

That proposal that doesn't include Rich Hill does not compete with what other teams are offering for him. At the same time, I think Hill and a couple other quality young ballplayers are as good or better than what the Yanks and Red Sox are offering - with the added bonus of the Twins not having to face him except possibly in Interleague play.

 

If the Cubs traded Hill, Prior, and if need be Pie or Patterson - and get Santana WITH an extension for even $18 mil a year - they are a much better team. Both teams win.

 

I agree that a rotation minus Hill, but adding Santana is better then last year. My argument is that a rotation with Santana, Z, Lilly, Hill, __________ is GREAT!

 

IMO, you could work out a deal in which both teams get what they want. I don't think you have to include Hill or Pie. You may have to include one, but not both.

 

I'd rather give up all/or most of Cedeno, Patterson, Gallagher, Marshall, Colvin, Murton, etc. You get my point. BTW, Murton would be someone that I think the Twins would value and could be part of a deal as well.

[Abe Frohman]

Holy Cow, I agree with you totally. If the Cubs could make a deal with the Twins for Santana AND hang on to Hill, that would be a SCARY rotation. Left-handed heavy, but SCARY.

 

Hell, give them Marquis and eat a good portion of his salary, and Patterson, Murton, and whatever. I'd like to keep Murton for his capabilities against LHP, and Pie because of his glove and potential - but they are all expendable when we are talking about Johan Santana.

 

BTW, Santana may have lost 13 games last year, but ALL of his other numbers seem to be mostly in line with the previous 4 years of dominance. I am not buying the theory that he is "slipping." Plus, he is just entering his prime.

[Derwood]

Overwhelm them with quantity!

 

I believe that phrase is embroidered on a sampler above his desk

[nolanwood]

There is absolutely no way the Twins deal Santana to the Cubs and don't get Pie and Hill (and more players) in return. Marquis is garbage - even if we paid his salary the Twins wouldn't want him.

[cbbryan]

There is absolutely no way the Twins deal Santana to the Cubs and don't get Pie and Hill (and more players) in return. Marquis is garbage - even if we paid his salary the Twins wouldn't want him.

 

I don't agree, but that's the joy of a message board.

 

I do agree that Marquis would not be part of the deal. He's not someone I see the Cubs being able to deal to anyone and especially not a lower budget club like the Twins.

 

I could see both Marshall and Gallagher in the deal, though.

[Guest]

Holy Cow, I agree with you totally. If the Cubs could make a deal with the Twins for Santana AND hang on to Hill, that would be a SCARY rotation. Left-handed heavy, but SCARY.

 

Hell, give them Marquis and eat a good portion of his salary, and Patterson, Murton, and whatever. I'd like to keep Murton for his capabilities against LHP, and Pie because of his glove and potential - but they are all expendable when we are talking about Johan Santana.

 

BTW, Santana may have lost 13 games last year, but ALL of his other numbers seem to be mostly in line with the previous 4 years of dominance. I am not buying the theory that he is "slipping." Plus, he is just entering his prime.

 

Well...

 

-His ERA was 3.33 last year - his highest since 2001 when he pitched only 43 innings.

-His WHIP, while still a stellar 1.07, has gone up each of the past three years.

-His K/BB ratio is his lowest since 2003 though, on the plus side, his K/9 have gone up the past two years.

-He allowed 33 home runs last year which led the AL.

-His OPS allowed has gone up each of the past three years and is his highest since 2001.

 

He's still a great pitcher but this was his worst year in a while and his stats are getting worse. Not sure if that trend is going to continue, though. Also, we saw what a move from the AL to the NL did for Ted Lilly, granted Lilly faced better hitting in the AL East than Santana did in the AL Central.

[Sammy Sofa]

Though the AL Central was no slouch.

[javy knows my name]

I would not include Hill or Pie unless Santana signed an extension.

 

I've been on the Pie bangwagon since the beginning and it would hurt to see him go to another team, but I would entertain it for a Santana or Miggy deal ONLY IF long term extensions where signed.

 

Does anyone think the Cubs could do Marshall, Gallagher, Colvin, and mid/low level prospect for Santana? I'd love to see the Cubs pull a deal where they don't have to give up Pie or Hill.

OH MY GOD. NO. NO. NO. NO.

Do you know who Johan Santana is?! This is the best pitcher out there, period. Not the best pitcher on the trade market. Not the best pitcher who is a free agent next year. He is the best pitcher in the major leagues.

The Yankees trump your offer with Phil Hughes. Marshall, Gallagher, Colvin and garbage don't get you Miguel Tejada plus all of his salary. This is just insanity. WHY would the twins do your deal? Please, I just want one reason. If trades like this got done, the league would be full of either teams with 13 AAAA-ers or teams with 5 stud pitchers and 8 elite hitters. Please.

[cbbryan]

I would not include Hill or Pie unless Santana signed an extension.

 

I've been on the Pie bangwagon since the beginning and it would hurt to see him go to another team, but I would entertain it for a Santana or Miggy deal ONLY IF long term extensions where signed.

 

Does anyone think the Cubs could do Marshall, Gallagher, Colvin, and mid/low level prospect for Santana? I'd love to see the Cubs pull a deal where they don't have to give up Pie or Hill.

OH MY GOD. NO. NO. NO. NO.

Do you know who Johan Santana is?! This is the best pitcher out there, period. Not the best pitcher on the trade market. Not the best pitcher who is a free agent next year. He is the best pitcher in the major leagues.

The Yankees trump your offer with Phil Hughes. Marshall, Gallagher, Colvin and garbage don't get you Miguel Tejada plus all of his salary. This is just insanity. WHY would the twins do your deal? Please, I just want one reason. If trades like this got done, the league would be full of either teams with 13 AAAA-ers or teams with 5 stud pitchers and 8 elite hitters. Please.

 

First off, I didn't say it was likely. I said it was prefered. Secondly, when Team A trades a player because they can't afford him they usually come up short on talent. Very rarely do you get all you can when teams know you have to trade the player. Granted, we are talking about Johan Santana and the likelihood of the Twins getting taken for a ride or slim to none.

 

I don't believe that what I offered was garbage. I'm certainly not saying that any player I listed is as highly touted, or has a higher ceiling then Hughes does. That's not to say that I don't think the players I mentioned have value. And I believe that the players have more value then most here believe.

 

If the Yankees give up Hughes, Kennedy, and Melky. They're basically giving up a possible #1 SP, #4 or 5 SP, and an average CF. While the Cubs don't have a possible #1 to give up, they could give enough SP to fill the middle/back end of a rotation (see Pierre, Juan trade) and still include young, experienced ML talent in any of Murton/Cedeno/Theriot/Fontenot. Or could give up someone like Patterson, who I think will be a starter in MLB.

 

Again, I'm not saying the Cubs could "with out a doubt" get Santana for one of these packages, I'm just saying they should explore it.

[javy knows my name]

I would not include Hill or Pie unless Santana signed an extension.

 

I've been on the Pie bangwagon since the beginning and it would hurt to see him go to another team, but I would entertain it for a Santana or Miggy deal ONLY IF long term extensions where signed.

 

Does anyone think the Cubs could do Marshall, Gallagher, Colvin, and mid/low level prospect for Santana? I'd love to see the Cubs pull a deal where they don't have to give up Pie or Hill.

OH MY GOD. NO. NO. NO. NO.

Do you know who Johan Santana is?! This is the best pitcher out there, period. Not the best pitcher on the trade market. Not the best pitcher who is a free agent next year. He is the best pitcher in the major leagues.

The Yankees trump your offer with Phil Hughes. Marshall, Gallagher, Colvin and garbage don't get you Miguel Tejada plus all of his salary. This is just insanity. WHY would the twins do your deal? Please, I just want one reason. If trades like this got done, the league would be full of either teams with 13 AAAA-ers or teams with 5 stud pitchers and 8 elite hitters. Please.

 

First off, I didn't say it was likely. I said it was prefered. Secondly, when Team A trades a player because they can't afford him they usually come up short on talent. Very rarely do you get all you can when teams know you have to trade the player. Granted, we are talking about Johan Santana and the likelihood of the Twins getting taken for a ride or slim to none.

 

I don't believe that what I offered was garbage. I'm certainly not saying that any player I listed is as highly touted, or has a higher ceiling then Hughes does. That's not to say that I don't think the players I mentioned have value. And I believe that the players have more value then most here believe.

 

If the Yankees give up Hughes, Kennedy, and Melky. They're basically giving up a possible #1 SP, #4 or 5 SP, and an average CF. While the Cubs don't have a possible #1 to give up, they could give enough SP to fill the middle/back end of a rotation (see Pierre, Juan trade) and still include young, experienced ML talent in any of Murton/Cedeno/Theriot/Fontenot. Or could give up someone like Patterson, who I think will be a starter in MLB.

 

Again, I'm not saying the Cubs could "with out a doubt" get Santana for one of these packages, I'm just saying they should explore it.

There is no reason to explore this. There is no "young, experienced ML talent" in this group - (Murton/Cedeno/Theriot/Fontenot)

These are Yankee pipe-dreams. I thought Cubs fans were better than this. I don't think the Twins get this done with Hughes, Kennedy and Melky, let alone with guys that we don't want or need.

[cbbryan]

I would not include Hill or Pie unless Santana signed an extension.

 

I've been on the Pie bangwagon since the beginning and it would hurt to see him go to another team, but I would entertain it for a Santana or Miggy deal ONLY IF long term extensions where signed.

 

Does anyone think the Cubs could do Marshall, Gallagher, Colvin, and mid/low level prospect for Santana? I'd love to see the Cubs pull a deal where they don't have to give up Pie or Hill.

OH MY GOD. NO. NO. NO. NO.

Do you know who Johan Santana is?! This is the best pitcher out there, period. Not the best pitcher on the trade market. Not the best pitcher who is a free agent next year. He is the best pitcher in the major leagues.

The Yankees trump your offer with Phil Hughes. Marshall, Gallagher, Colvin and garbage don't get you Miguel Tejada plus all of his salary. This is just insanity. WHY would the twins do your deal? Please, I just want one reason. If trades like this got done, the league would be full of either teams with 13 AAAA-ers or teams with 5 stud pitchers and 8 elite hitters. Please.

 

First off, I didn't say it was likely. I said it was prefered. Secondly, when Team A trades a player because they can't afford him they usually come up short on talent. Very rarely do you get all you can when teams know you have to trade the player. Granted, we are talking about Johan Santana and the likelihood of the Twins getting taken for a ride or slim to none.

 

I don't believe that what I offered was garbage. I'm certainly not saying that any player I listed is as highly touted, or has a higher ceiling then Hughes does. That's not to say that I don't think the players I mentioned have value. And I believe that the players have more value then most here believe.

 

If the Yankees give up Hughes, Kennedy, and Melky. They're basically giving up a possible #1 SP, #4 or 5 SP, and an average CF. While the Cubs don't have a possible #1 to give up, they could give enough SP to fill the middle/back end of a rotation (see Pierre, Juan trade) and still include young, experienced ML talent in any of Murton/Cedeno/Theriot/Fontenot. Or could give up someone like Patterson, who I think will be a starter in MLB.

 

Again, I'm not saying the Cubs could "with out a doubt" get Santana for one of these packages, I'm just saying they should explore it.

There is no reason to explore this. There is no "young, experienced ML talent" in this group - (Murton/Cedeno/Theriot/Fontenot)

These are Yankee pipe-dreams. I thought Cubs fans were better than this. I don't think the Twins get this done with Hughes, Kennedy and Melky, let alone with guys that we don't want or need.

 

Well, apparently that's what's being offered. So, it's that or Ellsbury and Lester from BoSox. If that's not good enough for you, or the Twins then they can keep him and lose him and get a couple picks at the end of next year.

 

I don't think that's what the Twins want. I think they want the best value available. Hughes may be the best single player they can get, but when was the last time you saw a team drop their top 5-6 prospects to get a guy?

 

Pipedream? The pipedream is expecting a team to give up every prospect in their system.

 

Like I initially stated, the Twins will in no way get back equal value when trading a player like Johan Santana. It rarely happens that you get equal talent. Especially when teams know you're shopping that player.

 

One final thing. All of Murton/Cedeno/Theriot/Fontenot have experience. They have been on the ML roster, have played in games. That my friend is experience and each and every one of them is an experienced MLB player.

[cbbryan]

Randy Johnson:

 

May 25, 1989: Traded by the Montreal Expos with Gene Harris and Brian Holman to the Seattle Mariners for a player to be named later and Mark Langston. The Seattle Mariners sent Mike Campbell (July 31, 1989) to the Montreal Expos to complete the trade. 

July 31, 1998: Traded by the Seattle Mariners to the Houston Astros for a player to be named later, Freddy Garcia, and Carlos Guillen. The Houston Astros sent John Halama (October 1, 1998) to the Seattle Mariners to complete the trade. 

October 28, 1998: Granted Free Agency. 

December 10, 1998: Signed as a Free Agent with the Arizona Diamondbacks. 

January 11, 2005: Traded by the Arizona Diamondbacks to the New York Yankees for Javier Vazquez, Brad Halsey, Dioner Navarro, and cash. 

January 9, 2007: Traded by the New York Yankees with cash to the Arizona Diamondbacks for Alberto Gonzalez, Ross Ohlendorf, Luis Vizcaino, and Steven Jackson (minors).

[cbbryan]

Curt Schilling:

 

July 29, 1988: Traded by the Boston Red Sox with Brady Anderson to the Baltimore Orioles for Mike Boddicker. 

January 10, 1991: Traded by the Baltimore Orioles with Steve Finley and Pete Harnisch to the Houston Astros for Glenn Davis. 

April 2, 1992: Traded by the Houston Astros to the Philadelphia Phillies for Jason Grimsley. 

July 26, 2000: Traded by the Philadelphia Phillies to the Arizona Diamondbacks for Omar Daal, Nelson Figueroa, Travis Lee, and Vicente Padilla. 

November 28, 2003: Traded by the Arizona Diamondbacks to the Boston Red Sox for Casey Fossum, Brandon Lyon, Jorge de la Rosa, and Michael Goss (minors).

[cbbryan]

Josh Beckett:

 

November 24, 2005: Traded by the Florida Marlins with Mike Lowell and Guillermo Mota to the Boston Red Sox for Hanley Ramirez, Anibal Sanchez, Harvey Garcia, and Jesus Delgado (minors).

 

While Hanley Ramirez is a heckuva SS and Anibal Sanchez has shown great stuff, but been injured. Is this the type of deal that is value for value?