Who will be the manager? Quade Fired (pg 15)

[Guest]

Sandberg managed Castro for the 31 games Castro was there in 2009. Sandberg had moved to Iowa when Castro started at AA in 2010, and Castro never played at Peoria or Iowa.

[Old Style]

For those backing Sandberg (or at least arguing that the case against him is weak), what is the argument for Sandberg that couldn't be used for 100 other candidates out there?

 

The Sandberg game.

Game. Set. Match.

[Sammy Sofa]

GET TUFFY RHODES ON THE PHONE, STAT.

[cl smooth]

There's a biography of his I have around here somewhere with some pretty damning quotes about how he feels about all those "people with spreadsheets trying to tell me how to play the game. I know how to play the game." (paraphrased, as I don't feel like finding the book)

 

i vaguely remember something like that in his biography, but i thought he was talking about larry himes and his cronies and not front office people leaning on sabrmetric analysis.

[CUBZ99]

For those backing Sandberg (or at least arguing that the case against him is weak), what is the argument for Sandberg that couldn't be used for 100 other candidates out there?

 

 

I'm not advocating for the Cubs to hire Sandberg, however, I do think that for some reason that is a certain amount of irrational dislike/criticism toward the guy. Here are the things we know about Sandberg:

 

1. He was a damn good player and according to his managers (Zimmer, Frey etc.) worked his ass off all of the time. (Hard work being something that Epstein specifically mentioned several times during his press conference and interviews).

 

2. He didn't expect to be given anything. When he asked about a managerial position and was offered the Peoria position, he accepted it and rode the bus with the players and didn't complain about paying his dues.

 

3. His teams in the minors typically seemed to outperform the talent he was given. (Granted it is only the majors).

 

4. It is funny how things are put into context depending on the person hearing or reading certain things. During his press conference and post press conference interviews Theo made many statements about "playing the game the right way", "respecting the game", being a good teammate, stressing fundamentals, moving the runner over, grinding, outworking the competition, etc. etc. Most people applauded his statements.

 

Now look at Ryno's HOF speech:http://www.cubsnet.com/node/526

 

 

If this validates anything, it's that learning how to bunt and hit and run and turning two is more important than knowing where to find the little red light at the dug out camera.

 

These guys sitting up here did not pave the way for the rest of us so that players could swing for the fences every time up and forget how to move a runner over to third, it's disrespectful to them, to you, and to the game of baseball that we all played growing up. Respect.

 

A lot of people say this honor validates my career, but I didn't work hard for validation. I didn't play the game right because I saw a reward at the end of the tunnel. I played it right because that's what you're supposed to do, play it right and with respect.

 

Make a great play, act like you've done it before, get a big hit, look for the third base coach and get ready to run the bases, hit a home run, put your head down, drop the bat, run around the bases, because the name on the front is a lot more important than the name on the back.

 

Sure it is a little over the top, but some of the areas he touched are specific problems that the Cubs constantly struggle with, i.e. moving the runner over, watching for the 3b coach, etc., stressing fundamentals...

 

I haven't read his quotes on not caring about on base percentage or dismissing statistical data, so I can't comment on that, but I think it is fair to state that until recently many other baseball types did not recognize the importance of them.

[jersey cubs fan]

I'm not advocating for the Cubs to hire Sandberg, however, I do think that for some reason that is a certain amount of irrational dislike/criticism toward the guy. Here are the things we know about Sandberg:

 

1. He was a damn good player and according to his managers (Zimmer, Frey etc.) worked his ass off all of the time. (Hard work being something that Epstein specifically mentioned several times during his press conference and interviews).

 

2. He didn't expect to be given anything. When he asked about a managerial position and was offered the Peoria position, he accepted it and rode the bus with the players and didn't complain about paying his dues.

 

3. His teams in the minors typically seemed to outperform the talent he was given. (Granted it is only the majors).

 

4. It is funny how things are put into context depending on the person hearing or reading certain things. During his press conference and post press conference interviews Theo made many statements about "playing the game the right way", "respecting the game", being a good teammate, stressing fundamentals, moving the runner over, grinding, outworking the competition, etc. etc. Most people applauded his statements.

 

Sure it is a little over the top, but some of the areas he touched are specific problems that the Cubs constantly struggle with, i.e. moving the runner over, watching for the 3b coach, etc., stressing fundamentals...

 

I haven't read his quotes on not caring about on base percentage or dismissing statistical data, so I can't comment on that, but I think it is fair to state that until recently many other baseball types did not recognize the importance of them.

 

1. Meaningless

2. He expected to be given the managerial job and thought a major league coaching position was beneath him.

3. Baseless, and meaningless.

4. Theo paid lip service for the mongoloids that think the Cubs lost because they don't move runners over enough or practice in spring training. Theo knows the Cubs lost because Jim Hendry and his underlings were incompetent fools running things like high school coaches.

 

moving runners over and stressing fundamentals aren't going to change things for the Cubs.

 

The fact that lots of idiotic baseball people thought like idiots for a long time doesn't defense Ryne Sandberg for thinking like an idiot.

[gus_dog]

1. He was a damn good player and according to his managers (Zimmer, Frey etc.) worked his ass off all of the time. (Hard work being something that Epstein specifically mentioned several times during his press conference and interviews).

 

1. Meaningless

 

Huh? So, when you hire people (if you ever have), do you try to find the most lazy sloth you can to fill the position?

 

Hardly meaningless.

[mul21]

So, living in St. Louis and watching TLR up close for a few years now, I really think the thing he does better than anybody else is have his coaching staff and players ready for any situation. I don't have any idea of the details of what he does, but they always seem to have a plan for whatever comes up. While I think he's a gigantic ass in general, there's no question, all the strange I'm smarter than you moves aside, that he has done a fantastic job as a manager. I think, with Sandberg, you might be getting the same type of guy. If Theo can imprint upon him the type of baseball that they want to play and he can execute that along with getting everybody ready for whatever the situation might be, he could be successful.

 

Is he the ideal candidate? Probably not, but other than getting a guy like Maddon who we've all seen be successful as a ML manager already, is he really worse than any of the alternatives? I'm really kind of neutral on whether or not I want him, but if Theo sits down with him and decides it's a good idea, I don't really have a huge problem with it.

[Hollandsworths mug]

Funny thing is that those not in favor of Sandberg come up with his HOF speech and other comments he has made as evidence not to hire him.

 

"Play the game the right way"= How dare he say such crap!

 

"He has no Major league experience"= Not ready, needs to be a bench coach first. Is this in the MLB manager handbook and mandatory? Nevermind that he has won and is getting ringing endorsements from many in the game.

 

"He will bunt over runners (when need be) and have them play fundamental baseball"= Oh, we can't have that. God forbid.

 

 

The bottom line is NONE of us know how he will manage at the MAJOR LEAGUE LEVEL. But to say he has not earned a shot based on the above is laughable at best.

Edited October 28, 2011 by Hollandsworth's mug

[Clem Fandango]

1. He was a damn good player and according to his managers (Zimmer, Frey etc.) worked his ass off all of the time. (Hard work being something that Epstein specifically mentioned several times during his press conference and interviews).

 

1. Meaningless

 

Huh? So, when you hire people (if you ever have), do you try to find the most lazy sloth you can to fill the position?

 

Hardly meaningless.

 

I work pretty damn hard at eating food but that doesn't make me a chef, knowhaduhmean

[gus_dog]

1. He was a damn good player and according to his managers (Zimmer, Frey etc.) worked his ass off all of the time. (Hard work being something that Epstein specifically mentioned several times during his press conference and interviews).

 

1. Meaningless

 

Huh? So, when you hire people (if you ever have), do you try to find the most lazy sloth you can to fill the position?

 

Hardly meaningless.

 

I work pretty damn hard at eating food but that doesn't make me a chef, knowhaduhmean

 

I know exactly what you mean, however, it still does not render a good work ethic meaningless..., ever. But your comment is completely meaningless in this context.

[SouthSideRyan]

Funny thing is that those not in favor of Sandberg come up with his HOF speach and other comments he has made as evidence not to hire him.

 

"Play the game the right way"= How dare he say such crap!

 

"He has no Major league experience"= Not ready, needs to be a bench coach first. Is this in the MLB manager handbook and mandatory? Nevermind that he has won and is getting ringing endorsements from many in the game.

 

"He will bunt over runners (when need be) and have them play fundamental baseball"= Oh, we can't have that. God forbid.

 

 

The bottom line is NONE of us know how he will manage at the MAJOR LEAGUE LEVEL. But to say he has not earned a shot based on the above is laughable at best.

 

Just like Mike Quade

[ScrubMD]

If Sandberg can get behind the advanced stats and the rest of Theo's philosophy, I would love for him to be the manager.

 

He seems to have gotten good results from his minor league teams.

 

I think he would be a good example for the younger players like Castro. I think they're much more likely to really listen to and respect a Hall of Famer.

 

It'd also be a good thing to have one of the most popular Cubs ever. Even if the benefits are relatively meaningless, it creates more excitement for the fan base.

 

If he's dismissive of advanced stats and won't get behind Theo, then those small benefits are not worth it. I hope he is open minded about it, because I'm a huge Sandberg fan and would love to have him as a good manager.

[gus_dog]

Funny thing is that those not in favor of Sandberg come up with his HOF speach and other comments he has made as evidence not to hire him.

 

"Play the game the right way"= How dare he say such crap!

 

"He has no Major league experience"= Not ready, needs to be a bench coach first. Is this in the MLB manager handbook and mandatory? Nevermind that he has won and is getting ringing endorsements from many in the game.

 

"He will bunt over runners (when need be) and have them play fundamental baseball"= Oh, we can't have that. God forbid.

 

 

The bottom line is NONE of us know how he will manage at the MAJOR LEAGUE LEVEL. But to say he has not earned a shot based on the above is laughable at best.

 

Just like Mike Quade

 

Except Quade has quite a bit more experience. This is why he got the job over Sandberg in the first place.

[Guest]

Mongoloids.

 

That word isn't used near as much as it should. It's a perfect metaphor.

[jersey cubs fan]

Huh? So, when you hire people (if you ever have), do you try to find the most lazy sloth you can to fill the position?

 

Hardly meaningless.

 

Lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of professional athletes work really hard at their job.

 

 

Doesn't make them management material.

 

And the meaningless comment was both about the fact that he was a damn good player (should not enter into discussion) and that his managers said he worked hard.

[Guest]

Mongoloids.

 

That word isn't used near as much as it should. It's a perfect metaphor.

I'd actually prefer we do not represent all the people that have a particular opinion about things as mongoloids.

 

Thanks

[Guest]

For those backing Sandberg (or at least arguing that the case against him is weak), what is the argument for Sandberg that couldn't be used for 100 other candidates out there?

 

 

I'm not advocating for the Cubs to hire Sandberg, however, I do think that for some reason that is a certain amount of irrational dislike/criticism toward the guy. Here are the things we know about Sandberg:

 

1. He was a damn good player and according to his managers (Zimmer, Frey etc.) worked his ass off all of the time. (Hard work being something that Epstein specifically mentioned several times during his press conference and interviews).

Magic Johnson was a great player. He was a tireless worker. Same with Michael Jordan. One was a terrible head coach and the other has been a terrible owner. Unfortunately, being a damn good player and hard worker does not equate to being a good manager.

 

2. He didn't expect to be given anything. When he asked about a managerial position and was offered the Peoria position, he accepted it and rode the bus with the players and didn't complain about paying his dues.

It's great that he recognized that he needed experience before being handed a job. I have no idea how this qualifies him to be manager, though.

 

3. His teams in the minors typically seemed to outperform the talent he was given. (Granted it is only the majors).

I assume you mean minors. His teams had some decent runs, but I have no idea how you can say they outperformed their talent levels without anything to back that up. I could just as easily say that they underperformed without offering any proof.

 

4. It is funny how things are put into context depending on the person hearing or reading certain things. During his press conference and post press conference interviews Theo made many statements about "playing the game the right way", "respecting the game", being a good teammate, stressing fundamentals, moving the runner over, grinding, outworking the competition, etc. etc. Most people applauded his statements.

Theo specifically stressed "grinding the at bats", defense and playing as one during this interviews. He absolutely does not advocate small ball, sacrificing, etc.

 

Which brings me to something I've wanted to talk about and may expand on in it's own thread at some point. When the White Sox (and others) talk about grinderball or a guy being a grinder, they mean that guy puts maximum effort into the game at all times. It denotes a guy who works really hard.

 

When Theo is talking about grinding at bats, he doesn't mean the same thing. What he's talking about is making the other team work harder. Be patient at the plate, make the opposing pitcher throw more, work harder and leave the game sooner.

 

Same word...entirely different concepts.

Now look at Ryno's HOF speech:http://www.cubsnet.com/node/526

 

 

If this validates anything, it's that learning how to bunt and hit and run and turning two is more important than knowing where to find the little red light at the dug out camera.

Is knowing how to bunt more important than knowing where to find the camera? Sure. But is this really the first point you want the manager to make? And are you really saying this is a reason to have him be manager?

 

These guys sitting up here did not pave the way for the rest of us so that players could swing for the fences every time up and forget how to move a runner over to third, it's disrespectful to them, to you, and to the game of baseball that we all played growing up. Respect.

He's going to have real issues with Jaramillo, who teaches a very aggressive swing. Trying to hit home runs in those situations isn't disrespecting the players who came before. It's not disrespecting the game. It's potentially inefficient within the game, but also potentially beneficial. So is bunting and sacrificing. All the talk of "disrespect" does nothing to make me believe he's going to either be a good manager or connect to the players in the game.

 

A lot of people say this honor validates my career, but I didn't work hard for validation. I didn't play the game right because I saw a reward at the end of the tunnel. I played it right because that's what you're supposed to do, play it right and with respect.

Seems a little high on himself, doesn't he? Is this the same guy you were portraying as humble because he was willing to coach in the minors?

 

Make a great play, act like you've done it before, get a big hit, look for the third base coach and get ready to run the bases, hit a home run, put your head down, drop the bat, run around the bases, because the name on the front is a lot more important than the name on the back.

Great sentiment, there's nothing wrong with that. It is the way I like players to behave.

 

Sure it is a little over the top, but some of the areas he touched are specific problems that the Cubs constantly struggle with, i.e. moving the runner over, watching for the 3b coach, etc., stressing fundamentals...

Have the Cubs struggled with those things? Sure, at times they have. Does every team struggle with those things at times? yep.

 

But the key thing is that those are not the driving difference between a 80 win team and a 100 win team. I'd much rather have a manager that is stressing a sound approach at the plate than one who is stressing bunting or hitting a ground ball to the right side. Any manager only gets so much bandwidth from the people underneath them. It is up to the manager to stress those things that are going to make the biggest impact. With Ryne, I worry that too much limited bandwidth would be spent on things that don't mean as much.

 

I wouldn't complain too much if the Cubs name Sandberg manager. It would likely mean that Theo & Hoyer have gotten him to buy into "The Cubs Way" and he'll stress the things that are most important. However, I just don't see any real justification for him over someone like Dave Martinez or a number of other candidates other than the fact that he had a better career with the Cubs.

[TruffleShuffle]

"He will bunt over runners (when need be) and have them play fundamental baseball"= Oh, we can't have that. God forbid.

 

show me where people have said that they do not want the cubs playing good fundamental baseball. hint: you will be searching a really really long time.

 

people are not opposed to bunting so much as bunting in dumbass situations like with the #2 hitter in the first inning, when giving away outs is the last thing a manager should be doing.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Sandberg is going to teach Castro how to protect his fielding percentage by not diving for tough plays.

[kente777]

"He will bunt over runners (when need be) and have them play fundamental baseball"= Oh, we can't have that. God forbid.

 

show me where people have said that they do not want the cubs playing good fundamental baseball. hint: you will be searching a really really long time.

 

people are not opposed to bunting so much as bunting in dumbass situations like with the #2 hitter in the first inning, when giving away outs is the last thing a manager should be doing.

 

I agree that a #2 hitter bunting in the first inning is utterly ridiculous. Do you honestly think, though, that Sandberg would manage a Major League team that way? I am not necessarily too keen on him becoming the Cubs manager, but I've got to believe the bunting scenerio you described has more to do with the situation (minor league players needing to learn how to bunt in a game) rather than giving up outs in the first inning because that's "playing the game right." I just don't think Sandberg would do that in a Major League manager's uniform.

[jersey cubs fan]

I agree that a #2 hitter bunting in the first inning is utterly ridiculous. Do you honestly think, though, that Sandberg would manage a Major League team that way?

 

Every day? No. At all? Definitely. He will do stuff that some people choose to call the "right way" because almost every manager tries to do stuff to justify their job and the media eats that crap up. He will do it, and he will probably do it more than most.

[kente777]

I agree that a #2 hitter bunting in the first inning is utterly ridiculous. Do you honestly think, though, that Sandberg would manage a Major League team that way?

 

Every day? No. At all? Definitely. He will do stuff that some people choose to call the "right way" because almost every manager tries to do stuff to justify their job and the media eats that crap up. He will do it, and he will probably do it more than most.

 

I'm not sure I agree with you on predicting his Major League manager philosophy, but bunting in the first inning with a #2 hitter would infuriate me to no end.

[Guest]

I agree that a #2 hitter bunting in the first inning is utterly ridiculous. Do you honestly think, though, that Sandberg would manage a Major League team that way?

 

Every day? No. At all? Definitely. He will do stuff that some people choose to call the "right way" because almost every manager tries to do stuff to justify their job and the media eats that crap up. He will do it, and he will probably do it more than most.

 

I'm not sure I agree with you on predicting his Major League manager philosophy, but bunting in the first inning with a #2 hitter would infuriate me to no end.

 

 

On the one hand, I think if there's reason to speculate either way, it's more likely that Sandberg would be the overmanaging type than the opposite. If my ideal is a set-it-and-forget-it type manager who doesn't do much but knows how to handle pitchers, I don't think it's all that unreasonable to think that Sandberg wouldn't be the best candidate for that.

 

(Nor is it likely that he's the greatest people person, from what we've heard, but who really knows.)

 

Conversely, what reason DO we have to think that he'd make a good manager. What makes him a managerial candidate other than the fact that he really, really wants to be one?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

What makes him a managerial candidate other than the fact that he really, really wants to be one?

 

He used his HOF speech to call out a non-white Cubs player.