Cubs Acquire Garza for Archer, Lee, Guyer, Chirinos & Fuld

[davell]

What makes this not a salary dump for the Rays?

 

They've got a better, younger, cheaper guy to replace him with in Hellickson?

Even more reason why they would be motivated to get less in return for Garza. Not only did the Rays need to move Garza because of his salary doubling, but they already had his replacement waiting in the wings. I think Hendry got played.

 

 

But, everything I had read said they wanted to cut their payroll this year from the 72ish area down to 50 mill or so. By losing Pena, Crawford, Burrell and Soriano, they had pretty much already accomplished that. Then they traded away Bartlett too. Plus, they lost Navarro, Wheeler, and probably Balfour too.

 

I'm on Cot's while posting this and looking at their payroll obligations is getting pretty funny. At this point, they've turned themselves into the Marlins basically, back when they had a 30 million dollar payroll or less.

 

They're rotation next year(Price, Niemann, Davis, Shields, Hellickson) will be making 9 mill total or so.

 

No clue what they're going to do in the pen-but looking at who've they got, it's going to be less than 5 mill as well.

 

Then, their everyday lineup, including Upton, Longoria, Jennings, Brignac, Rodriguez, Zobrist, and Jaso won't cost them but around 14 mill or so.

 

It looks like they're going to cut their payroll in HALF to me. If I was a Rays fan(not even sure they exist) I'd be pissed as hell, considering how close they could be to contending.

[javy knows my name]

What makes this not a salary dump for the Rays?

 

They've got a better, younger, cheaper guy to replace him with in Hellickson?

Even more reason why they would be motivated to get less in return for Garza. Not only did the Rays need to move Garza because of his salary doubling, but they already had his replacement waiting in the wings. I think Hendry got played.

 

 

But, everything I had read said they wanted to cut their payroll this year from the 72ish area down to 50 mill or so. By losing Pena, Crawford, Burrell and Soriano, they had pretty much already accomplished that. Then they traded away Bartlett too. Plus, they lost Navarro, Wheeler, and probably Balfour too.

 

I'm on Cot's while posting this and looking at their payroll obligations is getting pretty funny. At this point, they've turned themselves into the Marlins basically, back when they had a 30 million dollar payroll or less.

 

They're rotation next year(Price, Niemann, Davis, Shields, Hellickson) will be making 9 mill total or so.

 

No clue what they're going to do in the pen-but looking at who've they got, it's going to be less than 5 mill as well.

 

Then, their everyday lineup, including Upton, Longoria, Jennings, Brignac, Rodriguez, Zobrist, and Jaso won't cost them but around 14 mill or so.

 

It looks like they're going to cut their payroll in HALF to me. If I was a Rays fan(not even sure they exist) I'd be pissed as hell, considering how close they could be to contending.

You don't think they contend with that team?! I would be ecstatic as a Rays fan

[Guest]

I think I'm going to give myself a migraine hearing some typically smart people talk about Chirinos.

?

 

Robinson Chirinos is not "a piece", Dave Cameron. He turns 27 years old in a couple months and has a grand total of 15 games above AA. He's been in the Cubs organization since Bush's FIRST inauguration. I saw him play in person in Lansing(remember the Lugnuts) before I had my driver's license. He's only hit in his 3rd and 4th go rounds in Daytona and Tennessee, respectively. He's not worthless because he's a good catcher and he is hitting. But he's not going to hit at the MLB level.

[davell]

What makes this not a salary dump for the Rays?

 

They've got a better, younger, cheaper guy to replace him with in Hellickson?

Even more reason why they would be motivated to get less in return for Garza. Not only did the Rays need to move Garza because of his salary doubling, but they already had his replacement waiting in the wings. I think Hendry got played.

 

 

But, everything I had read said they wanted to cut their payroll this year from the 72ish area down to 50 mill or so. By losing Pena, Crawford, Burrell and Soriano, they had pretty much already accomplished that. Then they traded away Bartlett too. Plus, they lost Navarro, Wheeler, and probably Balfour too.

 

I'm on Cot's while posting this and looking at their payroll obligations is getting pretty funny. At this point, they've turned themselves into the Marlins basically, back when they had a 30 million dollar payroll or less.

 

They're rotation next year(Price, Niemann, Davis, Shields, Hellickson) will be making 9 mill total or so.

 

No clue what they're going to do in the pen-but looking at who've they got, it's going to be less than 5 mill as well.

 

Then, their everyday lineup, including Upton, Longoria, Jennings, Brignac, Rodriguez, Zobrist, and Jaso won't cost them but around 14 mill or so.

 

It looks like they're going to cut their payroll in HALF to me. If I was a Rays fan(not even sure they exist) I'd be pissed as hell, considering how close they could be to contending.

You don't think they contend with that team?! I would be ecstatic as a Rays fan

 

Oh, I think they can. But, it's going to be much tougher now that Boston has amped their team up as much as they did this offseason. But, what I would be pissed about is the fact that they SHOULD be looking to add pieces that can put them over the top. Instead, they've done nothing of the sort.

[ConstableRabbit]

I think I'm going to give myself a migraine hearing some typically smart people talk about Chirinos.

?

 

Robinson Chirinos is not "a piece", Dave Cameron. He turns 27 years old in a couple months and has a grand total of 15 games above AA. He's been in the Cubs organization since Bush's FIRST inauguration. I saw him play in person in Lansing(remember the Lugnuts) before I had my driver's license. He's only hit in his 3rd and 4th go rounds in Daytona and Tennessee, respectively. He's not worthless because he's a good catcher and he is hitting. But he's not going to hit at the MLB level.

All valid. Thanks for clarifying.

[Clem Fandango]

Zack Greinke pitched in the majors for 5 years and had a pedestrian 4.28 career ERA to show for it, but he had a lot of potential. He won the Cy Young the following year.

 

And then he returned to the pitcher he was the next year.

 

Because he didn't give a [expletive] and more or less reduced the amount of breaking pitches he threw the 2nd half of the season to save his arm

[CubsWin]

I guess I'm a dynasty guy through and through and that makes it hard to swallow a trade that gives up Archer, Lee and Guyer for a pitcher who will likely not be enough to put them over the top this season. This smacks of a trade driven by the fear of a GM trying to win now and willing to mortgage the team's future to do so.

[Cubs Fan Dan]

I guess I'm a dynasty guy through and through and that makes it hard to swallow a trade that gives up Archer, Lee and Guyer for a pitcher who will likely not be enough to put them over the top this season. This smacks of a trade driven by the fear of a GM trying to win now and willing to mortgage the team's future to do so.

 

I guess I just do not agree with this statement because Garza is a Cub for the next 3 years. I agree, Hendry needs to win right now, however I do not think this trade is going to cost the Cubs that much in the future. If Guyer turns into a starting OF, Lee reaches the "jose reyes" peak, and Archer becomes bonafide #2 than yes this hurts bad... But if in the end the Cubs give up a 4th OF, a Middle rotation starter, and a high average low power SS, than I think it ends up as a win win for both sides.

[rocket]

I guess I'm a dynasty guy through and through and that makes it hard to swallow a trade that gives up Archer, Lee and Guyer for a pitcher who will likely not be enough to put them over the top this season. This smacks of a trade driven by the fear of a GM trying to win now and willing to mortgage the team's future to do so.

 

if we're playing the likely game, it's likely archer, lee, and guyer combined will never be as productive as matt garza by himself.

[CubsWin]

I guess I'm a dynasty guy through and through and that makes it hard to swallow a trade that gives up Archer, Lee and Guyer for a pitcher who will likely not be enough to put them over the top this season. This smacks of a trade driven by the fear of a GM trying to win now and willing to mortgage the team's future to do so.

 

if we're playing the likely game, it's likely archer, lee, and guyer combined will never be as productive as matt garza by himself.

Well, I hope you guys are right...

[17 Seconds]

baseball america's top 10 prospects for the cubs

 

1. Archer

2. Jackson

3. McNutt

4. Lee

5. Vitters

6. Carpenter

7. Szczur

8. Simpson

9. Dolis

10. Guyer

 

 

WAY TO GO, CUBS

[17 Seconds]

Zack Greinke pitched in the majors for 5 years and had a pedestrian 4.28 career ERA to show for it, but he had a lot of potential. He won the Cy Young the following year.

 

And then he returned to the pitcher he was the next year.

 

Because he didn't give a [expletive] and more or less reduced the amount of breaking pitches he threw the 2nd half of the season to save his arm

 

grienke always had a higher ceiling than garza ever will

 

also there was all that mental stuff

[treebird]

I think I'm going to give myself a migraine hearing some typically smart people talk about Chirinos.

?

 

Robinson Chirinos is not "a piece", Dave Cameron. He turns 27 years old in a couple months and has a grand total of 15 games above AA. He's been in the Cubs organization since Bush's FIRST inauguration. I saw him play in person in Lansing(remember the Lugnuts) before I had my driver's license. He's only hit in his 3rd and 4th go rounds in Daytona and Tennessee, respectively. He's not worthless because he's a good catcher and he is hitting. But he's not going to hit at the MLB level.

 

completely, completely agreed. remember when there was all that stuff about the rangers liking him a bunch or something? i just don't get it at all. i won't say he's worthless, because i suppose there is some modicum of value in having a backup catcher who has 5 fingers on each hand,* but beyond that i don't know why you'd care about him or use any resources to get him at all.

 

 

*BOOM

[Keener98]

I'd be shocked if Garza got 10mil in arbitration this year. He made what 3 something last year? Noway he gets 10 mil in arbitration.

[davell]

I'd be shocked if Garza got 10mil in arbitration this year. He made what 3 something last year? Noway he gets 10 mil in arbitration.

 

Nah, I wrote that for 2012. I'd expect this upcoming year he'll be in the 6-6.5 range.

[Keener98]

I'd be shocked if Garza got 10mil in arbitration this year. He made what 3 something last year? Noway he gets 10 mil in arbitration.

 

Nah, I wrote that for 2012. I'd expect this upcoming year he'll be in the 6-6.5 range.

Ahh ok yea 6 mil or so is what I'm expecting also.

[Outshined_One]

Not a horrible deal, but considering how his peripherals stack up to Randy Wells, I can't say I'm enthused.

[Cubs Fan Dan]

Not a horrible deal, but considering how his peripherals stack up to Randy Wells, I can't say I'm enthused.

 

So you do not believe Garza has more potential than Randy Wells?

[Clem Fandango]

Not a horrible deal, but considering how his peripherals stack up to Randy Wells, I can't say I'm enthused.

 

So you do not believe Garza has more potential than Randy Wells?

 

Can we not start the Wells/Garza comparisons again and just refer to the first 20 pages instead?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

baseball america's top 10 prospects for the cubs

 

1. Archer

2. Jackson

3. McNutt

4. Lee

5. Vitters

6. Carpenter

7. Szczur

8. Simpson

9. Dolis

10. Guyer

 

 

WAY TO GO, CUBS

 

That says a lot about how picked clean the system was after all the good ones got called up.

[CubsWin]

baseball america's top 10 prospects for the cubs

 

1. Archer

2. Jackson

3. McNutt

4. Lee

5. Vitters

6. Carpenter

7. Szczur

8. Simpson

9. Dolis

10. Guyer

 

 

WAY TO GO, CUBS

 

That says a lot about how picked clean the system was after all the good ones got called up.

Actually, it doesn't. Jim Callis of Baseball America said he would rank the Cubs organization 8th and if Cashner and Castro were still included, they would have been 2nd only to the Royals. So yes, there was a drop off, but only down to 8th best.

[SouthSideRyan]

baseball america's top 10 prospects for the cubs

 

1. Archer

2. Jackson

3. McNutt

4. Lee

5. Vitters

6. Carpenter

7. Szczur

8. Simpson

9. Dolis

10. Guyer

 

 

WAY TO GO, CUBS

 

 

That says a lot about how picked clean the system was after all the good ones got called up.

 

8th ranked system in baseball

[Outshined_One]

Expanding on what I posted...

 

I think Matt Garza will improve marginally in the NL. His peripherals the past three years seem to suggest he'll be reasonably good, but that's about the extent of it. He's not an ace. With some luck, he could produce somewhere along the lines of a Ryan Dempster or a Ted Lilly. Overall, I can't complain about him in a vacuum.

 

Starting at the low end of the deal, Fuld and Chirinos are essentially throw-ins. We all know about Fuld. Chirinos is old for a catcher, good character guy, and maybe will be a good backup in the majors. I don't see Chirinos hitting in the majors like he did this past season. No hard loss.

 

Guyer's one of those intriguing guys who might have some decent upside left in him. He's a tweener and probably a 4th OF if he doesn't continue to develop power. Still, he could be a useful role player.

 

I'm unsurprised the Cubs had to give up value. Hak-Ju Lee is probably on the low end of the top prospects in the Cubs' system. He spent the whole season in Low A, hasn't shown a lick of usable power, and and still has work left to do. Still, his upside is incredibly tantalizing. Losing him hurts.

 

If the Cubs gave up Lee and a comparable B-/B prospect, I'd be okay. But Archer? Egh. He's got Marmol-level stuff and could stick as a starter. Even if he doesn't, he could have tremendous value in relief. His control issues are well-known, but there's a reason he was the #1 prospect in the Cubs' system. There's enough of a chance that his production could meet Garza's over the next five years that I'm not happy with the Cubs giving Archer up in addition to this package.

 

I don't know a whole lot about Perez other than he's a speedster who was injured. We'll see about the PTBNL.

 

So, in short, considering there's a reasonable enough chance that this package of prospects outperforms Garza + prospects over the next five years...I'm not too happy.

[David]

How ridiculous does our list still look if you just add Castro and Cashner to it?

[CubsWin]

baseball america's top 10 prospects for the cubs

 

1. Archer

2. Jackson

3. McNutt

4. Lee

5. Vitters

6. Carpenter

7. Szczur

8. Simpson

9. Dolis

10. Guyer

 

 

WAY TO GO, CUBS

 

 

That says a lot about how picked clean the system was after all the good ones got called up.

 

8th ranked system in baseball

Beat ya...