Cubs Acquire Garza for Archer, Lee, Guyer, Chirinos & Fuld

[Scotti]

I doubt the Garza deal goes down because nearly all of Hendry's trades are made quickly. He is know by his peers as being a GM who you can do a deal without him trying to hold out for a an even better deal. To me this means that Hendry has already offered what he thinks Garza is worth. Either Tampa budges or Hendry gives more than he thinks Garza is worth. I can only recall the Pierre deal as one where it dragged on and it was actually completed.

[Scotti]

Basically I was saying that there is no reason for a team with a 130m payroll to have to grab victory in cycles. They should be in a position to win every year like the Yankees and Boston always do. They shouldn't have to go through a rebuilding mode when they lose a top tier free agent. They should be able to trade from their resources and sign top tier free agents to replace the players they are losing.

 

I agree. The problem, however, is that Hendry has not had the Yankee nor Boston resources to spend over time. For 2003-2005 the Cardinals actually outspent the Cubs at just over $86M per for the Cards to just under $86M for the Cubs. (BOS averaged $117M per year and the NNY spent $182M). I did a study a while back that showed for the first 6 years of Hendry's being the Cub GM the Cubs salary averaged 7th per season in MLB where the Cards averaged finishing 8th. Not a huge advantage and the Cubs won three divisions in six years.

 

Hendry HAS had a large payroll over the past three years ($133M), no doubt about that. But the payroll has also been virtually frozen during that time frame (with Hendry having to move/not resign pieces just to back-load guys like Bradley). While $133M falls short of BOS ($141M) and the Yankees ($208M) it isn't just the dollar amount difference that is stark. Hendry has had his hands tied for several seasons while the appropriately named Cashman and Theo spend their respective ways out of bad deals and under-performing players (Dice-K, Giambi, etc.).

 

Cashman was able to reinvest the money he "saved" from expiring contracts (signing both Teixeira and CC Sabathia in ONE season) while Hendry has numerous expiring contracts this season and next and his payroll is being CUT. For Boston, Dice-K didn't work out and Josh Beckett isn't the guy you've paid him to be? Keep spending and throw $82.5M at John Lackey (John Lackey!). Julio Lugo didn't work out and JD Drew has just been a part-timer for you (who didn't see THAT one coming)? Just spend $142M on Crawford and lord knows what on Adrian Gonzalez.

 

Cashman and Theo were never constrained by Andy MacPhail/Tribune (again, being outspent by the Cards for three seasons) nor have they been constrained by Zell/Ricketts on the back end. That is how Cash and Theo make, in hindsight, poor decisions and yet keep on winning. Signed a free agent that didn't work out (or had to stop using roids)? Here, go spend some more. They outspend their mistakes. That's a great gig if you can get it and Hendry has not had it.

 

My point being, with the Cubs resources since 2003, there should not have been a "cycle" of any kind.

 

Again, I agree. The team should have used it's resources to fund replacements for Prior, Wood, Lee, etc. That is what NYY and BOS have done. But the team did not extend those resources to Hendry except for 2007 (and his teams followed that with 2 division titles). The Cubs have the largest American fan base in baseball (the Yanks have a larger worldwide fan base but the Cubs are larger here). They have an excellent market (Chicago) and on top of that their radio broadcasts reach 45 stations and their televised broadcasts are national. They have the 1st or 2nd most expensive tickets. As such, they SHOULD be consistently in the top 1-2-3 salaried teams in baseball. But the team has had poor ownership that has failed to capitalize on these facts. They didn't reinvest in Wrigley, the Triangle project, Mesa, etc. so greater revenue would come in. They were content with the lopsided WGN deals instead of branding their own network. I think that it is obvious that the reason that the Trib and, later, Zell didn't reinvest in the infrastructure was that they knew they were looking to sell. But it doesn't matter WHY Hendry didn't have a consistently high budget like BOS or NYY--he just didn't.

 

So, of his 8 years as Cub GM, Hendry had a modest 7th place budget (average) for 3 years (especially modest given the team resources). It climbed in 2006 but mostly to pay the players that he had brought on/developed (Lee, Ramirez, Zambrano, Wood, etc.). The payroll was still reasonable at $99.4M and even after the big FA year of 2007 it was still just at $99.7M. The combination of Zell and Ricketts have, since then, put the kibosh on adding to payroll beyond programmed ups. So, 8 years and he was able to spend like Cashman/Theo for 1 of those years. Cashman and Theo get to spend nearly every year. Theo has outspent Hendry by $188M since 2003. And that has been spread out over time. For Hendry to have had continued success with just one "spending year" he'd have had to have been Nostradamus.

Edited January 4, 2011 by Scotti

[Banedon]

Is this the interminable offseason thread this season? The Brian Roberts thread? It hasn't nearly matched that level of insanity yet, but it seems like the closest candidate.

[Backtobanks]

Is this the interminable offseason thread this season? The Brian Roberts thread? It hasn't nearly matched that level of insanity yet, but it seems like the closest candidate.

 

Well, Hendry usually likes to make a splash just before the convention. I guess Pena and Wood might be enough to get the crowd excited.

[Post Count Padder]

Is this the interminable offseason thread this season? The Brian Roberts thread? It hasn't nearly matched that level of insanity yet, but it seems like the closest candidate.

Didn't that reach 100 pages or something ridiculous? I know since we've had the Peavy, Crawford and now Garza threads, but I don't think anything will ever come close to Roberts.

[dew1679666265]

Dontrelle Willis? Short-lived, but definitely turned into a real commodity.

 

Matt Clement completely sucked for 3 seasons :roll:

 

Dontrelle was a overhyped player save for 2005. You could make a decent arguement that the Cubs won that deal.

 

I don't think there's much of an argument the Cubs won that trade. I don't think that's what CubsWin's point was, though. Even if the Cubs won that trade, Willis was still a good pitcher for a couple of years.

[David]

I doubt the Garza deal goes down because nearly all of Hendry's trades are made quickly. He is know by his peers as being a GM who you can do a deal without him trying to hold out for a an even better deal. To me this means that Hendry has already offered what he thinks Garza is worth. Either Tampa budges or Hendry gives more than he thinks Garza is worth. I can only recall the Pierre deal as one where it dragged on and it was actually completed.

 

 

The Nomar deal took a month, if not more... the Harden deal was talked about for a couple weeks.

[dew1679666265]

I doubt the Garza deal goes down because nearly all of Hendry's trades are made quickly. He is know by his peers as being a GM who you can do a deal without him trying to hold out for a an even better deal. To me this means that Hendry has already offered what he thinks Garza is worth. Either Tampa budges or Hendry gives more than he thinks Garza is worth. I can only recall the Pierre deal as one where it dragged on and it was actually completed.

 

 

The Nomar deal took a month, if not more... the Harden deal was talked about for a couple weeks.

 

It feels like it's been longer than a month that this deal has been discussed.

[Scotti]

I doubt the Garza deal goes down because nearly all of Hendry's trades are made quickly. He is know by his peers as being a GM who you can do a deal without him trying to hold out for a an even better deal. To me this means that Hendry has already offered what he thinks Garza is worth. Either Tampa budges or Hendry gives more than he thinks Garza is worth. I can only recall the Pierre deal as one where it dragged on and it was actually completed.

 

The Nomar deal took a month, if not more... the Harden deal was talked about for a couple weeks.

 

Nomar was rumored as moving for about two weeks. He was traded July 31st and the original rumor had the Sox getting back Randy Johnson in mid-July. RJ is what held that up not what Hendry offered (RJ wasn't a final part of the deal). That wound up being a four-team deal--those take time--but what Hendry was paying for Nomar never seemed an issue.

 

Harden went down the day after MIL got CC Sabathia (July 7th and 8th). Hendry was trying to get Sabathia as well and when that fell through he went to plan B--Harden. That's one day, not two weeks.

 

Neither of those deals d r a g g e d on for months like Roberts and Peavy and, now, potentially Garza. Hendry will, and has, waited for free agents and even free agent managers. But if a potential trading partner is waiting on Hendry to sweeten the pot then he's likely not going to get it done.

[Guest]

I doubt the Garza deal goes down because nearly all of Hendry's trades are made quickly. He is know by his peers as being a GM who you can do a deal without him trying to hold out for a an even better deal. To me this means that Hendry has already offered what he thinks Garza is worth. Either Tampa budges or Hendry gives more than he thinks Garza is worth. I can only recall the Pierre deal as one where it dragged on and it was actually completed.

 

The Nomar deal took a month, if not more... the Harden deal was talked about for a couple weeks.

 

Nomar was rumored as moving for about two weeks. He was traded July 31st and the original rumor had the Sox getting back Randy Johnson in mid-July. RJ is what held that up not what Hendry offered (RJ wasn't a final part of the deal). That wound up being a four-team deal--those take time--but what Hendry was paying for Nomar never seemed an issue.

 

Harden went down the day after MIL got CC Sabathia (July 7th and 8th). Hendry was trying to get Sabathia as well and when that fell through he went to plan B--Harden. That's one day, not two weeks.

 

Neither of those deals d r a g g e d on for months like Roberts and Peavy and, now, potentially Garza. Hendry will, and has, waited for free agents and even free agent managers. But if a potential trading partner is waiting on Hendry to sweeten the pot then he's likely not going to get it done.

 

The Peavy deal sure was a weird one. It seemed like a deal was just waiting to be announced after weeks of haggling, and then all of a sudden it was gone like a thief in the night.

[davell]

I doubt the Garza deal goes down because nearly all of Hendry's trades are made quickly. He is know by his peers as being a GM who you can do a deal without him trying to hold out for a an even better deal. To me this means that Hendry has already offered what he thinks Garza is worth. Either Tampa budges or Hendry gives more than he thinks Garza is worth. I can only recall the Pierre deal as one where it dragged on and it was actually completed.

 

The Nomar deal took a month, if not more... the Harden deal was talked about for a couple weeks.

 

Nomar was rumored as moving for about two weeks. He was traded July 31st and the original rumor had the Sox getting back Randy Johnson in mid-July. RJ is what held that up not what Hendry offered (RJ wasn't a final part of the deal). That wound up being a four-team deal--those take time--but what Hendry was paying for Nomar never seemed an issue.

 

Harden went down the day after MIL got CC Sabathia (July 7th and 8th). Hendry was trying to get Sabathia as well and when that fell through he went to plan B--Harden. That's one day, not two weeks.

 

Neither of those deals d r a g g e d on for months like Roberts and Peavy and, now, potentially Garza. Hendry will, and has, waited for free agents and even free agent managers. But if a potential trading partner is waiting on Hendry to sweeten the pot then he's likely not going to get it done.

 

The Peavy deal sure was a weird one. It seemed like a deal was just waiting to be announced after weeks of haggling, and then all of a sudden it was gone like a thief in the night.

 

Evidently they were ready to announce the deal at one point, but Zell pulled the plug on spending. I read that not too long ago and had never knew that it was THAT close to happening.

[Guest]

Evidently they were ready to announce the deal at one point, but Zell pulled the plug on spending. I read that not too long ago and had never knew that it was THAT close to happening.

 

It seemed as though all the principles and not-so-principles were all in place and everyone and their grandma was just sitting there waiting for confirmation that the deal was done. Early on, it was San Diego wavering about whether or not they wanted to make a deal and Hendry basically falling all over himself trying to put together a package of players (some from Cleveland, possibly including Archer), and then it was Hendry that just walked away.

 

Glad that one didn't happen.

[SouthSideRyan]

Nomar was rumored as moving for about two weeks. He was traded July 31st and the original rumor had the Sox getting back Randy Johnson in mid-July. RJ is what held that up not what Hendry offered (RJ wasn't a final part of the deal). That wound up being a four-team deal--those take time--but what Hendry was paying for Nomar never seemed an issue.

 

It never seemed an issue because everyone knew Matt Clement was going the other way.

[italianocubsfan7]

Cubs close to trade w/ the Rays? Per Sun-Times:

 

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/3163822-419/cubs-garza-deal-efforts-postseason.html

[utkcub]

im frightened at what he's going to cost us

[italianocubsfan7]

im frightened at what he's going to cost us

 

Early indications are that it's not going to be Chris Archer and/or Brett Jackson.

[CubsWin]

Cubs close to trade w/ the Rays? Per Sun-Times:

 

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/3163822-419/cubs-garza-deal-efforts-postseason.html

This is the first article I've seen on the subject in several weeks. I acknowledge the Cubs organization's efforts to compete this season, but I sincerely hope they don't mortgage the too much of the future to do so.

[BigSlick]

just dont part ways with starlin castro just yet, please

[Banedon]

It would give the Cubs a Ryan Dempster-Garza-Carlos Zambrano top three to their starting rotation and make the back end look stronger with only two spots between Andrew Cashner, Randy Wells, Carlos Silva, Tom Gorzelanny and Jeff Samardzija.

 

Is Gordon Wittenmeyer calling Zambrano our 3rd best starter (presuming the Garza trade)?

[Cubs Fan Dan]

No way Castro is included, keep in mind according to sources the Cubs would not include Cashner, Jackson, Archer or Castro in a deal for Adrian Gonzalez, i doubt any of them are included for Garza.

 

My guess is IF this even happens it will be:

 

Chirinos

Lee

Guyer

Carpenter

[Prizefight]

 

My guess is IF this even happens it will be:

 

Chirinos

Lee

Guyer

Carpenter

 

That feels like a lot.

[David]

I doubt the Garza deal goes down because nearly all of Hendry's trades are made quickly. He is know by his peers as being a GM who you can do a deal without him trying to hold out for a an even better deal. To me this means that Hendry has already offered what he thinks Garza is worth. Either Tampa budges or Hendry gives more than he thinks Garza is worth. I can only recall the Pierre deal as one where it dragged on and it was actually completed.

 

The Nomar deal took a month, if not more... the Harden deal was talked about for a couple weeks.

 

Nomar was rumored as moving for about two weeks. He was traded July 31st and the original rumor had the Sox getting back Randy Johnson in mid-July. RJ is what held that up not what Hendry offered (RJ wasn't a final part of the deal). That wound up being a four-team deal--those take time--but what Hendry was paying for Nomar never seemed an issue.

 

Harden went down the day after MIL got CC Sabathia (July 7th and 8th). Hendry was trying to get Sabathia as well and when that fell through he went to plan B--Harden. That's one day, not two weeks.

 

Neither of those deals d r a g g e d on for months like Roberts and Peavy and, now, potentially Garza. Hendry will, and has, waited for free agents and even free agent managers. But if a potential trading partner is waiting on Hendry to sweeten the pot then he's likely not going to get it done.

 

 

The Nomar deal was being talked about for a month. Certain outlets didn't pick it up, but others did. If I remember right, Bruce Levine had it in early July. Believe me, I know because I was obsessing over it immediately.

Edited January 5, 2011 by David

[NCCubFan]

It would give the Cubs a Ryan Dempster-Garza-Carlos Zambrano top three to their starting rotation and make the back end look stronger with only two spots between Andrew Cashner, Randy Wells, Carlos Silva, Tom Gorzelanny and Jeff Samardzija.

 

Is Gordon Wittenmeyer calling Zambrano our 3rd best starter (presuming the Garza trade)?

Either that or else he's just listing those three in alphabetical order.

[Guest]

 

My guess is IF this even happens it will be:

 

Chirinos

Lee

Guyer

Carpenter

 

That feels like a lot.

 

It does, but if you're going to deal 4 guys from different ranges of the Top 20, that's not a bad list to give up.

[David]

It would give the Cubs a Ryan Dempster-Garza-Carlos Zambrano top three to their starting rotation and make the back end look stronger with only two spots between Andrew Cashner, Randy Wells, Carlos Silva, Tom Gorzelanny and Jeff Samardzija.

 

Is Gordon Wittenmeyer calling Zambrano our 3rd best starter (presuming the Garza trade)?

 

While I wouldn't agree with it, doesn't seem that egregious.