Cubs Acquire Garza for Archer, Lee, Guyer, Chirinos & Fuld

[Guest]

I can't really agree with the rest in terms of the Cubs ability to compete in this division, so if that's where you stand, we'll never agree.

 

Compete in the division. That's all this move does, and I think they can do that without adding Garza. Making this trade does not assure them of finishing ahead of any of Milwaukee, Cincy or St. Louis, however. And they definitely aren't in the same league as Phily.

 

No, they're not in the same league as Philly at all. But that's not really the point. All they need to do is finish ahead of the other NL Central teams, none of which are locks to be great. That gets them into the postseason, which we all know is a big crapshoot.

 

The Cubs could finish ahead of those teams with or without Garza is my point. Garza is not such a game changer that the Cubs will leapfrog over all the other teams in the division by adding him. Rather than overpay for a guy when you really have no idea where you will be by seasons end, wait and see where you are at the deadline. If you are in the hunt, make a move. But, to take a potential 4th place team and still finish in 4th place while giving up a lot of minor league talent doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

 

With the news that there are potentially 8 players involved, I'll hold off on further judgment of this deal.

[David]

Gordon Wittenmyer needs to get an apology from all the other reporters in town that essentially said he was full of it.

 

 

I was thinking the same thing.

[Guancous]

Hendry is awful. A historically bad GM.

 

Hyperbole.

[Post Count Padder]

We better be getting McGee back too

 

Or Hellickson. Or Wade Davis.

I'd be happy with Davis, especially if we let them take Carlos Silva off our hands. Seriously, he's putting a real drain on the pitching staff now. Anyone think we'll just cut him?

[Sammy Sofa]

So how much better does Garza figure to be getting to face a bunch of crappy NL Central teams as opposed to a bunch of awesome AL East teams, plus one automatic out every 9 hitters?

 

And by "bunch of awesome AL teams" you mean two?

 

Divisions aren't all that big. Sue me for generalizing 2 really really freaking good lineups as "a bunch."

 

Would you prefer "a bunch of awesome hitters?"

 

Or is that leaving the standard for awesome too low? Let's really dissect this.

 

Let's. Your ideas of what he did while on the Rays against the AL East are really overblown.

[Sammy Sofa]

Hendry is awful. A historically bad GM.

 

Hyperbole.

 

Hah! Totally unrelated, but I just realized why your screen name and avatar were so familiar on the AV Club.

[David]

Cubs and Tampa have officially agreed on an 8 player deal. 4 minor leaguers and Sam Fuld for Matt Garza and two young players

 

 

Archer, Chirinos, Lee, & Guyer

 

 

Garza for a minor league OFer and minor league pitcher... Levine didn't say names

[Sammy Sofa]

OH JESUS GOD NO NOT FULD HE WAS THE FUTURE.

[David]

OH JESUS GOD NO NOT FULD HE WAS THE FUTURE.

 

 

You laugh, but I bet somewhere on Cubs.com or in some crappy blog's comments, someone is making this post.

[JonJayCutler]

So a 5 for 3 deal. As long as the TB prospects coming back are somewhat decent I could live with this deal. Trading Sam Fuld obviously doesn't bother me.

[DonnieD]

The other AL East teams averaged 834 runs & 764 runs in '09 & '10 respectively. The other NL Central teams averaged 693 and 695 runs in '09 & '10 respectively. I would say there is a pretty significant difference in the divisional opponents that Garza will face by moving leagues.

[Pushfrog98]

The Cub Reporter just tweeted:

 

Levine says up to 8 players could be in involved in Garza/#Cubs deal

Throwing in Castro and Marmol for good measure?

[Guest]

Garza was actually quite good against Boston and New York if memory serves.

 

The thing about the prospects has never been "this guy is a surefire all-star, why did we give him up?", it's that prospects have value at the time of the trade, and many people felt that value isn't recaptured by the trade's return. That's why the Pierre deal was so especially bad. If Garza never improves upon being a 2-3 WAR pitcher, then I think it's fair to say that we could've gotten more value from those prospects in a different deal or by keeping them.

 

That said, Garza has enough in his favor(age, stuff, contract status) that I don't think it's a terrible gamble. As to the actual package, I trust Miles a lot more than Levine, so I believe that Garza/Archer/Lee/Chirinos/Guyer are in the deal. My guess is that Hendry might be trying to get back either a surplus prospect from the Rays to get some of the upside back they lose with Archer/Lee, or he's trying to get his additional reliever by adding 2 lesser prospects.

[David]

Garza was actually quite good against Boston and New York if memory serves.

 

The thing about the prospects has never been "this guy is a surefire all-star, why did we give him up?", it's that prospects have value at the time of the trade, and many people felt that value isn't recaptured by the trade's return. That's why the Pierre deal was so especially bad. If Garza never improves upon being a 2-3 WAR pitcher, then I think it's fair to say that we could've gotten more value from those prospects in a different deal or by keeping them.

 

That said, Garza has enough in his favor(age, stuff, contract status) that I don't think it's a terrible gamble. As to the actual package, I trust Miles a lot more than Levine, so I believe that Garza/Archer/Lee/Chirinos/Guyer are in the deal. My guess is that Hendry might be trying to get back either a surplus prospect from the Rays to get some of the upside back they lose with Archer/Lee, or he's trying to get his additional reliever by adding 2 lesser prospects.

 

Levine is reporting it as a done deal, not rumor anymore. So he's basically tossing that out there as fact. FWIW.

[Guest]

The other AL East teams averaged 834 runs & 764 runs in '09 & '10 respectively. The other NL Central teams averaged 693 and 695 runs in '09 & '10 respectively. I would say there is a pretty significant difference in the divisional opponents that Garza will face by moving leagues.

 

Yep. Weaker competition in general. Maybe not enough to make him an ace, but definitely a guy I like a lot.

[Sammy Sofa]

OH JESUS GOD NO NOT FULD HE WAS THE FUTURE.

 

 

You laugh, but I bet somewhere on Cubs.com or in some crappy blog's comments, someone is making this post.

 

Imagine if it was Colvin. The fury would be delicious.

[big_shooter17]

So what are we looking at for a rotation?

 

Zambrano

Garza

Dempster

Gorzellany

Wells

 

With guys like Silva still lurking and Diamond coming up to compete as well, does this eliminate Cashner from the rotation (something that I have had my doubts about from the get go) for another year?

[davell]

One of Colome or McGee(since it's not going to be Hellickson or Moore) had better be included. Since I have no hope of adding Jennings, I have no idea who they have in their system that's an OFer.

[Guest]

Levine is reporting it as a done deal, not rumor anymore. So he's basically tossing that out there as fact. FWIW.

 

I didn't see that when I was making that post.

[Northside Blues]

Hendry is awful. A historically bad GM.

 

Is the trade really more than Chris Archer and a backup AAA level catcher, a potential Jason Bartlett who hasn't played above lo A, and a potential fourth outfielder? After Archer, and a certain extent Lee, the other two guys are filler. You have to give up something of value to get something of value.

Thats one way to spin it. I think Lee is gonna be a bit better than Bartlett - but even if he turns out to ONLY be Bartlett - that's still a very valuable piece. 6 team-controlled years of a starting SS with a good glove has a lot of value.

 

Agreed, but it's a bit redundant with Castro. Since they both can probably stick at short, we're probably better off trading one of them rather than letting one slide to second (or third), since their value will drop.

[Prizefight]

So what are we looking at for a rotation?

 

Zambrano

Garza

Dempster

Gorzellany

Wells

 

With guys like Silva still lurking and Diamond coming up to compete as well, does this eliminate Cashner from the rotation (something that I have had my doubts about from the get go) for another year?

 

 

How can you possibly forget about Shark??!?

 

Gorz has been on the block for well over a month, wouldn't be shocked if he were moved for prospects eventually.

[Guancous]

Hendry is awful. A historically bad GM.

 

Hyperbole.

 

Hah! Totally unrelated, but I just realized why your screen name and avatar were so familiar on the AV Club.

 

Yup, same dude.

 

Last year's 2011 PECOTA projections were not too kind to Garza. The update should be more favorable.

[big_shooter17]

"The Cubs and at least three other teams had been negotiating with the Rays about Garza since the December winter meetings in Lake Buena Vista, Fla."

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=5998431&campaign=rss&source=CHICAGOHeadlines

 

Those other teams sure were quiet compared to Hendry.

[Guest]

One of Colome or McGee(since it's not going to be Hellickson or Moore) had better be included. Since I have no hope of adding Jennings, I have no idea who they have in their system that's an OFer.

 

Where is McGee these days in terms of where he was pre-TJ?

[tfarks]

One of Colome or McGee(since it's not going to be Hellickson or Moore) had better be included. Since I have no hope of adding Jennings, I have no idea who they have in their system that's an OFer.

 

Edit: Nevermind, was looking at 2010 top 20 list.

Edited January 7, 2011 by tfarks