Yanks Inquire about Zambrano

[Rob]

Wins continue to be the best statistic for measuring the success of a starting pitcher. Still waiting for any proof that the really great starting pitchers average less than 14 wins for their career. You obviously don't have an answer.

 

Five years ago, you could still believe in wins as a stat and simply be considered behind the times. But if you don't have some sort of evidence that you were in a coma, monastary, or frozen Encino Man style, we have to assume that you're choosing to remain ignorant rather than attempt intelligent conversation. Stop wasting our time.

 

Sorry, Rob. But you and your confused ilk have yet to provide any stat that is more important than wins for a starting pitcher, especially one that is paid over $18 million a year. What's more important WHIP? :wink: Other stats have importance but not to the degree of wins. Your expectations seem quite low and indicative of your understanding.

 

I posted this exchange last time you came in here espousing outdated philosophies.

 

In 1987 Nolan Ryan pitched 211.3 innings (good for 9th in the league). He did this with an ERA a quarter of run lower than anybody else in the league, and he lead the league in strikeouts. He allowed the second fewest HR/9. Had the highest K/BB ratio in the league. He allowed the fewest H/9.

 

Despite all of this, he went 8 - 16 and lead the league in losses.

 

W-L record is a joke and says a hell of a lot more about the team than it does about the pitcher. Anybody who still uses it to judge a pitcher's worth in this day and age needs to be taken out back and put out of their misery Old Yeller style.

Agreed judging pitchers value by season-season wins is going to give you very mixed results on how good a pitcher actually is. However I do think wins can be used, to a point, for judging the value/effectiveness of a pitcher over a whole career. Along with all the other things like whip, era+, k/9, h/9, etc.

 

No, you can't.

 

The assumption that Wins might mean something in the long run is based on the idea that a pitcher is likely to be on an equal number of bad teams and good teams. Careers just aren't long enough to make that assumption, especially considering how long a team has control over a player when they break into the league.

 

There are numerous, better metrics to use in evaluating a player. I'd barely even bother to gloss over wins when trying to judge a player's worth.

[XZero771679666304]

Wins continue to be the best statistic for measuring the success of a starting pitcher. Still waiting for any proof that the really great starting pitchers average less than 14 wins for their career. You obviously don't have an answer.

 

Five years ago, you could still believe in wins as a stat and simply be considered behind the times. But if you don't have some sort of evidence that you were in a coma, monastary, or frozen Encino Man style, we have to assume that you're choosing to remain ignorant rather than attempt intelligent conversation. Stop wasting our time.

 

Sorry, Rob. But you and your confused ilk have yet to provide any stat that is more important than wins for a starting pitcher, especially one that is paid over $18 million a year. What's more important WHIP? :wink: Other stats have importance but not to the degree of wins. Your expectations seem quite low and indicative of your understanding.

 

 

:rotfl:

[erik316wttn]

Wins continue to be the best statistic for measuring the success of a starting pitcher. Still waiting for any proof that the really great starting pitchers average less than 14 wins for their career. You obviously don't have an answer.

 

Five years ago, you could still believe in wins as a stat and simply be considered behind the times. But if you don't have some sort of evidence that you were in a coma, monastary, or frozen Encino Man style, we have to assume that you're choosing to remain ignorant rather than attempt intelligent conversation. Stop wasting our time.

 

Sorry, Rob. But you and your confused ilk have yet to provide any stat that is more important than wins for a starting pitcher, especially one that is paid over $18 million a year. What's more important WHIP? :wink: Other stats have importance but not to the degree of wins. Your expectations seem quite low and indicative of your understanding.

 

So then tell me this:

 

Although I'll grant you that wins are a factor when considering the elite pitchers of the time (300 wins is an automatic ticket to Cooperstown, but only because you have to be a great pitcher to stick around long enough to accumulate 300 wins), answer me this question:

 

I'll give you the stat lines of two pitchers. Tell me which had the better year.

 

Pitcher A) 8-16 record, 2.76 ERA, 142 ERA+, 270 K's, 1.139 WHIP

 

Pitcher B) 19-9 record, 4.85 ERA, 90 ERA+, 136 K's, 1.397 WHIP

[Exile on Waveland]

benchwarmer perhaps you should sit this one out

 

Nah Dext, think I'll be here. Just like the demise of Rita, anxious to see how the next episode turns out.

 

WTF is this? Are you serious?

 

You can remain an ignorant, win-loving Luddite for all I care. However, you just spoiled one of my favorite TV shows that I've been to busy to catch all the way up this season. This isn't even the TV thread, which I've avoided for this very reason. Besides not adding anything to the baseball discussions on the board -- I would say you detract, but SSR's post was so great I copied it for future reference -- you're an inconsiderate jerk.

 

 

 

 

 

*I'm sorry if this is inappropriate.

[NCCubFan]

He's obviously trolling to get a reaction. If people stop responding to him he'll probably get bored and stop. We all know that wins are not a good way of evaluating a pitcher; who cares if BW admits it or not?

[Little Slide Rooter]

benchwarmer perhaps you should sit this one out

 

Nah Dext, think I'll be here. Just like the demise of Rita, anxious to see how the next episode turns out.

 

WTF is this? Are you serious?

You can remain an ignorant, win-loving Luddite for all I care. However, you just spoiled one of my favorite TV shows that I've been to busy to catch all the way up this season.

 

 

 

 

 

*I'm sorry if this is inappropriate.

 

If I hadnt watched The Soup the other night, Id have no idea what any of this even meant.

[UMFan83]

He's obviously trolling to get a reaction. If people stop responding to him he'll probably get bored and stop. We all know that wins are not a good way of evaluating a pitcher; who cares if BW admits it or not?

 

It's hard not to ignore him though. This board loves to pile on stupid arguments.

[Little Slide Rooter]

He's obviously trolling to get a reaction. If people stop responding to him he'll probably get bored and stop. We all know that wins are not a good way of evaluating a pitcher; who cares if BW admits it or not?

 

It's hard not to ignore him though. This board loves to pile on stupid arguments.

 

It seems as though more and more threads end up that way these days.

[Cubswin11]

Yankees close to a trade for with a pitcher, not a salary dump trade (don't know if Z would be considered a salary dump trade?). per MLBTR Edited December 22, 2009 by Cubswin11

[SCCubbieFAN]

My feelings: article

 

very good article Tim. you propose the kind of out-of-the-box thinking I for one would love to see the Cubs do once in awhile. you can't ignore Z's decline over the last few years, no-hitter notwithstanding, and if this rumor is true, it presents a true sell high scenario so many of us wish the Cubs could do "effectively" more often.

[ScrubMD]

 

Odds that this is argued against in any way - 0%

Odds that you changed his mind - 0%

 

C.C. Sabathia got 19 wins last season. Your move, hot shot.

 

I'm... confused.

 

It proves BW right, imbecile.

[erik316wttn]

Yankees close to a trade for with a pitcher, not a salary dump trade (don't know if Z would be considered a salary dump trade?). per MLBTR

 

I doubt it's Z. If it were, Bruce would be all over it.

[dew1679666265]

He's all over it, but not in a confirming sort of way.

 

Anyway, I've talked with a few people about the New York Post story that had the Yankees interested in Carlos Zambrano. One Cubs guy said something to the effect of "the price is too high for the Yankees even though we've never talked."

[mhuber92211]

He's all over it, but not in a confirming sort of way.

 

Anyway, I've talked with a few people about the New York Post story that had the Yankees interested in Carlos Zambrano. One Cubs guy said something to the effect of "the price is too high for the Yankees even though we've never talked."

 

Translation, They've done the "What if" scenario without names like GM's do on the radio when they can't discuss another player on someone else's team.

[Clem Fandango]

I'm pretty sure he's talking about Hurricane Rita, which... oh nevermind.

 

P.S. Melky Cabrera isn't even qualified enough to lick the sweat off my taint, let alone play baseball. And I know the rumor was shot down, but the mere fact he was being talked about being a quality exchange piece for Zambrano was ridiculous

[inari]

Having finished Dexter Season 4 about 10 minutes ago now, I'm even more pissed about what happened earlier in this thread.

 

Carlos Zambrano, whoo.

[DurbanJer]

Reverting to the topic at hand - sort of - and away from ruined TV weekends:

 

Trading Z to a willing partner falls directly in-line with the exact kind of move that Hendry seemingly has no instinct for. He's done OK in picking up other teams' salary dumps in years past, for that I'll concede some credit. Not a lot, but a bit.

 

But where I, and others here on this board, really have a beef is in his consistent mismanagement of the roster from the perspective of long-term planning and taking advantage of team assets to maximize the talent on the roster year-in and year-out. The maligned DeRosa trade aside (the only team I can recall a player being 'sold' at the peak of his value), Hendry consistently returns to talent who may have had value in years past and then overpays for it, seemingly becomes fixated on a set of ideas that change yearly, becomes enamored of his own players (and grants them NTC that completely handcuffs the organization), and hands out long-term contracts that fail to recognize that players, over time and on average, will decline in productivity.

 

If there's a market for Zambrano, I'd be all-over a trade for a young, quality, position player from a team that is over-stocked in one position, or sees a quality pitcher as a missing piece to take them to the next level. Zambrano's value is certainly not at its peak (that was probably in the 2005-7 time frame), though it certainly hasn't tanked.

 

Modern baseball (and all sports) demand constant re-imagining of rosters within financial constraints and long-term planning. Sadly, I can't identify what JH's long-term strategy for the Cubs is. Getting "more left-handed" or "athletic" is the short-sided baseball GM equivalant of a slapping a band-aid on a bleeding artery. Good organizations have a plan and execute to that plan. They don't change their systems every year and wonder why, yet again, they failed to catch lightning in a bottle and then go back to the drawing board.

 

Speaking of peak value, as much as I admire the player and the person, Derek Lee would be a perfect sell-high opportunity. Adrian Gonzalez is available and is two years removed from his eventual big pay-out. The Padres are apparantly interested in trading him, I'd love a move that would make that possible.

 

Sadly, Lee and Zambrano, will not be viewed by this organization as high-value assets that are likely to have diminishing value over the next two years. Instead - and until theire's a change in organizational philosophy that can only come if JH is gone - we'll see them on the roster for the next two years, they'll age past their prime years and either walk for nothing and we'll continue to have a time of over-paid, untradable (NTC) assets that could help this franchise establish itself year-in and year-out.

[A New Era]

Tim, your article if anything, makes me sad. Only because I would love the Cubs to be run efficiently and smartly like that. But I know they won't. (atleast until Hendry is gone).

[Backtobanks]

Yankees close to a trade for with a pitcher, not a salary dump trade (don't know if Z would be considered a salary dump trade?). per MLBTR

 

I doubt it's Z. If it were, Bruce would be all over it.

 

 

From MLBTR:

 

Yankees Closing In On Javier Vazquez

By Howard Megdal [December 22 at 8:34am CST]

8:34am: The Yankees are closing in on a deal for Vazquez, according to Jon Heyman of SI.com (via Twitter). Heyman says the Yankees will acquire Vazquez and Boone Logan for Melky Cabrera, Mike Dunn and a prospect.

[Cubswin11]

Good trade for the Yankees IMO. They still need another OF, I wonder if they go after Bay or Holliday now? Or maybe try a bargain guy/vet out like Dye.

[JeffH]

What use do the Braves have for Melky Cabrera?

[SouthSideRyan]

What use do the Braves have for Melky Cabrera?

 

What use does anyone have for Melky Cabrera?

[Guest]

Reverting to the topic at hand - sort of - and away from ruined TV weekends:

 

Trading Z to a willing partner falls directly in-line with the exact kind of move that Hendry seemingly has no instinct for. He's done OK in picking up other teams' salary dumps in years past, for that I'll concede some credit. Not a lot, but a bit.

 

But where I, and others here on this board, really have a beef is in his consistent mismanagement of the roster from the perspective of long-term planning and taking advantage of team assets to maximize the talent on the roster year-in and year-out. The maligned DeRosa trade aside (the only team I can recall a player being 'sold' at the peak of his value), Hendry consistently returns to talent who may have had value in years past and then overpays for it, seemingly becomes fixated on a set of ideas that change yearly, becomes enamored of his own players (and grants them NTC that completely handcuffs the organization), and hands out long-term contracts that fail to recognize that players, over time and on average, will decline in productivity.

 

If there's a market for Zambrano, I'd be all-over a trade for a young, quality, position player from a team that is over-stocked in one position, or sees a quality pitcher as a missing piece to take them to the next level. Zambrano's value is certainly not at its peak (that was probably in the 2005-7 time frame), though it certainly hasn't tanked.

 

Modern baseball (and all sports) demand constant re-imagining of rosters within financial constraints and long-term planning. Sadly, I can't identify what JH's long-term strategy for the Cubs is. Getting "more left-handed" or "athletic" is the short-sided baseball GM equivalant of a slapping a band-aid on a bleeding artery. Good organizations have a plan and execute to that plan. They don't change their systems every year and wonder why, yet again, they failed to catch lightning in a bottle and then go back to the drawing board.

 

Speaking of peak value, as much as I admire the player and the person, Derek Lee would be a perfect sell-high opportunity. Adrian Gonzalez is available and is two years removed from his eventual big pay-out. The Padres are apparantly interested in trading him, I'd love a move that would make that possible.

 

Sadly, Lee and Zambrano, will not be viewed by this organization as high-value assets that are likely to have diminishing value over the next two years. Instead - and until theire's a change in organizational philosophy that can only come if JH is gone - we'll see them on the roster for the next two years, they'll age past their prime years and either walk for nothing and we'll continue to have a time of over-paid, untradable (NTC) assets that could help this franchise establish itself year-in and year-out.

 

You should post more often. Leave it to Jim Hendry to tie up contracts so badly that he can't go after the most appealing players that are available. This happens year after year after year. The big contracts that were handed out were bad enough, but he allowed full no trade clauses to rule the roost. Moving forward, you better be in the hunt for an MVP or a CY award before any Cub GM hands out another freaking no trade clause.

 

And this is something ALL baseball GM's should collude to do. They don't have to do it in a way that the player's association finds out. What the player's association doesn't know won't hurt them. Only the best of the best should get NTC's. After that, they should only be reserved for those that meet the 5/10 rule.

[davell]

Odd deal. Not sure how Cabrera really helps the Braves. Plus, didn't the Yanks get rid of Vasquez the first time because they didn't think he had the makeup to pitch in New York?

[Backtobanks]

Odd deal. Not sure how Cabrera really helps the Braves. Plus, didn't the Yanks get rid of Vasquez the first time because they didn't think he had the makeup to pitch in New York?

 

If I was the Braves, I'd ask for Swisher instead.