College Football - Week of Nov. 21st

[jersey cubs fan]

Weis is paying for the laziness b/c the 2007 and 2008 teams still haunt him. His overall record was tanked by the '07 season. If you haven't really looked at how bad the depth was in spring 06-fall 08, you're probably underestimating Ty's laziness. This spring was the first time in 3 years that we had enough OL to have a full 2-deep. The team couldn't practice with 2 full sets of lineman b/c we didn't have them. Ty landed just 4 OL. And since ND doesn't use JC replacements to supplement their classes, they played 2 years way under the 85 man limit. Weis brought them back to the point of actually having to turn down 4-star players b/c there are too many that are interested in the program at a given position. That never happened under Ty.

 

There's too much to try to explain it all and this isn't an ND board (in fact, more readers hate ND than not) so I don't want to bog it down. But the assertion that Weis' tenure wasn't heavily impacted by the severe damage that Ty did to the program is naive [expletive] that the media has been playing for years (aided in no small part by Ty implying that race was a factor in his firing). Recruiting is only one portion. A significant portion, but not everything. Ask UW fans how they feel about him.

 

Okay, earlier in his tenure, but what does that have to do with the team that is out there now?

[jersey cubs fan]

Although if he is dumped by ND it is going to be in part due to negative perception in the Chicago area and I'd bet the Bears would view that as a knock against bringing him in to be the olive branch to fans looking for change.

 

Well the current offensive coordinator was brought in after being fired for doing a far worse job at less of a name football program. I'd be all for Weis as Bears O coordinator.

 

Right, he's a step up from Turner, no question. But my point is, if he's fired from ND, he's not going to have a very high profile in Chicago, and if the Bears replace Turner, it's going to be as an olive branch to Chicago fans in the face of not being able to can Angelo and Smith. Would they really hire such a guy? Or would he take the job? I have my doubts about both.

 

Also, I'm not sure Lovie and Charlie would work well together, given the talk of Weis's ego and Lovie's low key all for one one for all mentality.

[Guest]

Weis is paying for the laziness b/c the 2007 and 2008 teams still haunt him. His overall record was tanked by the '07 season. If you haven't really looked at how bad the depth was in spring 06-fall 08, you're probably underestimating Ty's laziness. This spring was the first time in 3 years that we had enough OL to have a full 2-deep. The team couldn't practice with 2 full sets of lineman b/c we didn't have them. Ty landed just 4 OL. And since ND doesn't use JC replacements to supplement their classes, they played 2 years way under the 85 man limit. Weis brought them back to the point of actually having to turn down 4-star players b/c there are too many that are interested in the program at a given position. That never happened under Ty.

 

There's too much to try to explain it all and this isn't an ND board (in fact, more readers hate ND than not) so I don't want to bog it down. But the assertion that Weis' tenure wasn't heavily impacted by the severe damage that Ty did to the program is naive [expletive] that the media has been playing for years (aided in no small part by Ty implying that race was a factor in his firing). Recruiting is only one portion. A significant portion, but not everything. Ask UW fans how they feel about him.

 

Okay, earlier in his tenure, but what does that have to do with the team that is out there now?

It's a BS argument. Weis had his best seasons with Ty's recruits.

[Andy]

Weis is paying for the laziness b/c the 2007 and 2008 teams still haunt him. His overall record was tanked by the '07 season. If you haven't really looked at how bad the depth was in spring 06-fall 08, you're probably underestimating Ty's laziness. This spring was the first time in 3 years that we had enough OL to have a full 2-deep. The team couldn't practice with 2 full sets of lineman b/c we didn't have them. Ty landed just 4 OL. And since ND doesn't use JC replacements to supplement their classes, they played 2 years way under the 85 man limit. Weis brought them back to the point of actually having to turn down 4-star players b/c there are too many that are interested in the program at a given position. That never happened under Ty.

 

There's too much to try to explain it all and this isn't an ND board (in fact, more readers hate ND than not) so I don't want to bog it down. But the assertion that Weis' tenure wasn't heavily impacted by the severe damage that Ty did to the program is naive [expletive] that the media has been playing for years (aided in no small part by Ty implying that race was a factor in his firing). Recruiting is only one portion. A significant portion, but not everything. Ask UW fans how they feel about him.

 

Okay, earlier in his tenure, but what does that have to do with the team that is out there now?

It's a BS argument. Weis had his best seasons with Ty's recruits.

I'm not defending the argument GR made, but give Ty those teams and let's see him win 19 games in two years. I'm setting the over/under at 4.5 fewer wins that Ty would've had with the same crew.

[snoodmonger]

Lots of rumors that KU is having a formal meeting with players and their families. Mangino may have hit/gotten physical with a player. THe families are making a presentation to a panel. I think he may be gone.

[Andy]

Lots of rumors that KU is having a formal meeting with players and their families. Mangino may have hit/gotten physical with a player. THe families are making a presentation to a panel. I think he may be gone.

Damn. Well that'll do it.

 

You want him gone or no? I can't remember which side of the fence you're on.

[snoodmonger]

Lots of rumors that KU is having a formal meeting with players and their families. Mangino may have hit/gotten physical with a player. THe families are making a presentation to a panel. I think he may be gone.

Damn. Well that'll do it.

 

You want him gone or no? I can't remember which side of the fence you're on.

 

I don't necessarily want him gone unless that stuff is true. But his leash has gotten way shorter after this disaster of a season, which reshaped my perception of him as a coach. This team, at the worst, should have been 7-5. We'll be lucky to go 6-6 at this point. It was a total failure for the coaching staff.

[Tracer Bullet]

Weis is paying for the laziness b/c the 2007 and 2008 teams still haunt him. His overall record was tanked by the '07 season. If you haven't really looked at how bad the depth was in spring 06-fall 08, you're probably underestimating Ty's laziness. This spring was the first time in 3 years that we had enough OL to have a full 2-deep. The team couldn't practice with 2 full sets of lineman b/c we didn't have them. Ty landed just 4 OL. And since ND doesn't use JC replacements to supplement their classes, they played 2 years way under the 85 man limit. Weis brought them back to the point of actually having to turn down 4-star players b/c there are too many that are interested in the program at a given position. That never happened under Ty.

 

There's too much to try to explain it all and this isn't an ND board (in fact, more readers hate ND than not) so I don't want to bog it down. But the assertion that Weis' tenure wasn't heavily impacted by the severe damage that Ty did to the program is naive [expletive] that the media has been playing for years (aided in no small part by Ty implying that race was a factor in his firing). Recruiting is only one portion. A significant portion, but not everything. Ask UW fans how they feel about him.

 

Okay, earlier in his tenure, but what does that have to do with the team that is out there now?

It's a BS argument. Weis had his best seasons with Ty's recruits.

 

not knowing what you're talking about never seems to bother you. Many (most?) of the key players on Weis' best team were actually Davie recruits.

[Tracer Bullet]

Weis is paying for the laziness b/c the 2007 and 2008 teams still haunt him. His overall record was tanked by the '07 season. If you haven't really looked at how bad the depth was in spring 06-fall 08, you're probably underestimating Ty's laziness. This spring was the first time in 3 years that we had enough OL to have a full 2-deep. The team couldn't practice with 2 full sets of lineman b/c we didn't have them. Ty landed just 4 OL. And since ND doesn't use JC replacements to supplement their classes, they played 2 years way under the 85 man limit. Weis brought them back to the point of actually having to turn down 4-star players b/c there are too many that are interested in the program at a given position. That never happened under Ty.

 

There's too much to try to explain it all and this isn't an ND board (in fact, more readers hate ND than not) so I don't want to bog it down. But the assertion that Weis' tenure wasn't heavily impacted by the severe damage that Ty did to the program is naive [expletive] that the media has been playing for years (aided in no small part by Ty implying that race was a factor in his firing). Recruiting is only one portion. A significant portion, but not everything. Ask UW fans how they feel about him.

 

Okay, earlier in his tenure, but what does that have to do with the team that is out there now?

 

A fair amount, really. The culture changed pretty significantly under Ty. And the damage from his lack of recruiting has harmed the program (and Weis). Weis went to 2 BCS games in his first 2 years and yet there has been talk of his imminent firing since before the end of his third year. He's had a "hot seat" continuously since. And players are constantly asked about it during media sessions (and I'm sure informally as well).

 

You think they got back from Stanford in '07 and immediately turned the page. "Whew, glad that's over. Can't wait for spring practice. We're going to be awesome next year!" The biggest selling point in recruiting was (and sort of had to be) in essence: "Look how terrible this team is. You could come here and help us immediately b/c our current players suck." Ironically, that (and Weis' allegedly imminent firing) were the biggest shots fired by other coaches in negative recruiting too. It's not rocket science that a disaster season has effects long after the end of the season.

 

Weis has to go. I said that before in this thread. But he's suffered greatly for Ty's short comings. I'm surprised that's really controversial. Actually, I shouldn't say that, I'm not really surprised.

[Tracer Bullet]

Although if he is dumped by ND it is going to be in part due to negative perception in the Chicago area and I'd bet the Bears would view that as a knock against bringing him in to be the olive branch to fans looking for change.

 

Well the current offensive coordinator was brought in after being fired for doing a far worse job at less of a name football program. I'd be all for Weis as Bears O coordinator.

 

Right, he's a step up from Turner, no question. But my point is, if he's fired from ND, he's not going to have a very high profile in Chicago, and if the Bears replace Turner, it's going to be as an olive branch to Chicago fans in the face of not being able to can Angelo and Smith. Would they really hire such a guy? Or would he take the job? I have my doubts about both.

 

Also, I'm not sure Lovie and Charlie would work well together, given the talk of Weis's ego and Lovie's low key all for one one for all mentality.

 

I don't know if they'd offer it. I hope they would. I'm not sure if he'd take it, but it largely depends, I imagine, on what else is out there. And while Charlie certainly had a huge ego in 2005, one thing he learned at ND is humility. He still has an ego, I'm sure. You can't be a HC in big time college sports without one. But I think he could easily step back into the role of OC, especially back in the NFL.

[jersey cubs fan]

It's not rocket science that a disaster season has effects long after the end of the season.

 

Weis has to go. I said that before in this thread. But he's suffered greatly for Ty's short comings. I'm surprised that's really controversial. Actually, I shouldn't say that, I'm not really surprised.

 

I'm sorry but that's a really weak defense. Every time a new coach takes over for a failed coach there is a carryover effect from the regime change. He's on the hot seat now because his team has lost 4 games in a year when many expected a BCS game and he doesn't have a signature impressive win. Claiming that he's currently suffering from Ty because a couple years ago he had to recruit while being on the hot seat just doesn't hold up. That's an excuse college coaches don't get.

Edited November 17, 2009 by jersey cubs fan

[Guest]

Weis is paying for the laziness b/c the 2007 and 2008 teams still haunt him. His overall record was tanked by the '07 season. If you haven't really looked at how bad the depth was in spring 06-fall 08, you're probably underestimating Ty's laziness. This spring was the first time in 3 years that we had enough OL to have a full 2-deep. The team couldn't practice with 2 full sets of lineman b/c we didn't have them. Ty landed just 4 OL. And since ND doesn't use JC replacements to supplement their classes, they played 2 years way under the 85 man limit. Weis brought them back to the point of actually having to turn down 4-star players b/c there are too many that are interested in the program at a given position. That never happened under Ty.

 

There's too much to try to explain it all and this isn't an ND board (in fact, more readers hate ND than not) so I don't want to bog it down. But the assertion that Weis' tenure wasn't heavily impacted by the severe damage that Ty did to the program is naive [expletive] that the media has been playing for years (aided in no small part by Ty implying that race was a factor in his firing). Recruiting is only one portion. A significant portion, but not everything. Ask UW fans how they feel about him.

 

Okay, earlier in his tenure, but what does that have to do with the team that is out there now?

It's a BS argument. Weis had his best seasons with Ty's recruits.

 

not knowing what you're talking about never seems to bother you. Many (most?) of the key players on Weis' best team were actually Davie recruits.

You are making a fool out yourself.

 

First year 9-3 (freshman recruits, but he was late in getting on campus)

second year 10-3 (freshman and sophomore recruits)

Third year 3-9 (freshman, sophomore, and junior recruits)

forth year 7-6 (Totally his team)

This year ? totally his team

 

Like snod said, "the genius" said, "every game you will have a decided schematic advantage," according to Sports Illustrated. Then he said in a presser, "They've had the advantage in recruiting because I came late. Now it is X's and O's. Let's see who has the advantage now." He also went on to say, "Let me just say people better enjoy (beating us) now, have their fun now,".

 

Navy's had a lot of fun these past two years.

[SpongeWorthy]

Weis's problem is that he can't or won't teach fundamentals. It's a huge weakness in the college game. He'll be back in the NFL as a coordinator, and quickly, if he checks his ego at the door. I'd even be interested in him for the Bears although I do think the Bears need a lot of work on fundamentals, sadly. Moreso than other teams.

[Tracer Bullet]

It's not rocket science that a disaster season has effects long after the end of the season.

 

Weis has to go. I said that before in this thread. But he's suffered greatly for Ty's short comings. I'm surprised that's really controversial. Actually, I shouldn't say that, I'm not really surprised.

 

I'm sorry but that's a really weak defense. Every time a new coach takes over for a failed coach there is a carryover effect from the regime change. He's on the hot seat now because his team has lost 4 games in a year when many expected a BCS game and he doesn't have a signature impressive win. Claiming that he's currently suffering from Ty because a couple years ago he had to recruit while being on the hot seat just doesn't hold up. That's an excuse college coaches don't get.

 

He's fired after Stanford b/c his teams haven't performed to expectations. I completely agree. He was on the hot seat (in the media if not reality) in 2007, months after taking the team to a second consecutive BCS game, b/c his predecessor tanked the program.

[Tracer Bullet]

You are making a fool out yourself.

 

First year 9-3 (freshman recruits, but he was late in getting on campus)

second year 10-3 (freshman and sophomore recruits)

Third year 3-9 (freshman, sophomore, and junior recruits)

forth year 7-6 (Totally his team)

This year ? totally his team

 

I'm making a fool of myself? Ironic that you mock Weis' arrogance.

 

You told me his first year was Ty's players. I told you that key players, especially lineman, were Davie's players (those players were signed in '01, under Davie, and recruited in '01, by Davie; Ty came on 12/31/01). You ignore that completely and instead list the above. In his first year, most of the lines were Davie's recruits, including 3 OL that are (or were) in the NFL. Quinn was "Ty's recruit" in the sense that another recruits dad told Ty he really, really need to look at Quinn so he did and reluctantly gave him an offer. His 4th year was totally his team b/c there was a very small number of 5th years, which would have been Ty's recruits, if he had been recruiting at the end. Weis was unable to redshirt guys like Eric Olsen, Sam Young, etc, in '06 because there weren't enough bodies to fill out the roster. So not only does he have to play freshman and sophomores, he loses those guys for 2010.

 

Seriously, I can't believe the basic math of football recruiting and eligibility makes it so hard to fathom that a guy, for example, recruiting 4 OL in 3 years would have a lasting impact.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

So the argument is that Willingham torpedoed Weis's tenure until he got his own recruits, by which time people were already grumbling that he isn't the answer and might be coaching for his job?

[Guest]

You are making a fool out yourself.

 

First year 9-3 (freshman recruits, but he was late in getting on campus)

second year 10-3 (freshman and sophomore recruits)

Third year 3-9 (freshman, sophomore, and junior recruits)

forth year 7-6 (Totally his team)

This year ? totally his team

 

I'm making a fool of myself? Ironic that you mock Weis' arrogance.

 

You told me his first year was Ty's players. I told you that key players, especially lineman, were Davie's players (those players were signed in '01, under Davie, and recruited in '01, by Davie; Ty came on 12/31/01). You ignore that completely and instead list the above. In his first year, most of the lines were Davie's recruits, including 3 OL that are (or were) in the NFL. Quinn was "Ty's recruit" in the sense that another recruits dad told Ty he really, really need to look at Quinn so he did and reluctantly gave him an offer. His 4th year was totally his team b/c there was a very small number of 5th years, which would have been Ty's recruits, if he had been recruiting at the end. Weis was unable to redshirt guys like Eric Olsen, Sam Young, etc, in '06 because there weren't enough bodies to fill out the roster. So not only does he have to play freshman and sophomores, he loses those guys for 2010.

 

Seriously, I can't believe the basic math of football recruiting and eligibility makes it so hard to fathom that a guy, for example, recruiting 4 OL in 3 years would have a lasting impact.

Excuses, excuses. These past two teams have been Weis's teams. He's done worse with his own players than he's done with other Ty's players. :cray:

[jersey cubs fan]

It's not rocket science that a disaster season has effects long after the end of the season.

 

Weis has to go. I said that before in this thread. But he's suffered greatly for Ty's short comings. I'm surprised that's really controversial. Actually, I shouldn't say that, I'm not really surprised.

 

I'm sorry but that's a really weak defense. Every time a new coach takes over for a failed coach there is a carryover effect from the regime change. He's on the hot seat now because his team has lost 4 games in a year when many expected a BCS game and he doesn't have a signature impressive win. Claiming that he's currently suffering from Ty because a couple years ago he had to recruit while being on the hot seat just doesn't hold up. That's an excuse college coaches don't get.

 

He's fired after Stanford b/c his teams haven't performed to expectations. I completely agree. He was on the hot seat (in the media if not reality) in 2007, months after taking the team to a second consecutive BCS game, b/c his predecessor tanked the program.

 

He was on the hot seat because he lost 5 games in a row 10 months after getting absolutely destroyed in a BCS game his team had no business playing in. You make it sound like people just suddenly turned on him for no good reason.

[Keener98]

Lots of rumors that KU is having a formal meeting with players and their families. Mangino may have hit/gotten physical with a player. THe families are making a presentation to a panel. I think he may be gone.

 

When you say "gotten physical" does that mean he maybe tried to eat a player?

[Guest]

It's not rocket science that a disaster season has effects long after the end of the season.

 

Weis has to go. I said that before in this thread. But he's suffered greatly for Ty's short comings. I'm surprised that's really controversial. Actually, I shouldn't say that, I'm not really surprised.

 

I'm sorry but that's a really weak defense. Every time a new coach takes over for a failed coach there is a carryover effect from the regime change. He's on the hot seat now because his team has lost 4 games in a year when many expected a BCS game and he doesn't have a signature impressive win. Claiming that he's currently suffering from Ty because a couple years ago he had to recruit while being on the hot seat just doesn't hold up. That's an excuse college coaches don't get.

 

He's fired after Stanford b/c his teams haven't performed to expectations. I completely agree. He was on the hot seat (in the media if not reality) in 2007, months after taking the team to a second consecutive BCS game, b/c his predecessor tanked the program.

 

He was on the hot seat because he lost 5 games in a row 10 months after getting absolutely destroyed in a BCS game his team had no business playing in. You make it sound like people just suddenly turned on him for no good reason.

It's hard to conceive how his predecessor tanked the program when he just went to his second consecutive BCS game with his predecessor's players.

[Tracer Bullet]

So the argument is that Willingham torpedoed Weis's tenure until he got his own recruits, by which time people were already grumbling that he isn't the answer and might be coaching for his job?

 

There are a lot of arguments. The basic argument is that Weis continues to suffer from Ty's tenure. That alone seems to make people uncomfortable.

 

I don't know that Ty's performance cost Weis his job; I'm not sure Weis is ever going to be good enough to be a successful HC at a major program. But it was a contributing factor. Whether Weis would have lost it this year all on his own, I don't know. I suspect his job status this year would have depended much more on the perceived quality of available replacements than it does now.

[Tracer Bullet]

It's not rocket science that a disaster season has effects long after the end of the season.

 

Weis has to go. I said that before in this thread. But he's suffered greatly for Ty's short comings. I'm surprised that's really controversial. Actually, I shouldn't say that, I'm not really surprised.

 

I'm sorry but that's a really weak defense. Every time a new coach takes over for a failed coach there is a carryover effect from the regime change. He's on the hot seat now because his team has lost 4 games in a year when many expected a BCS game and he doesn't have a signature impressive win. Claiming that he's currently suffering from Ty because a couple years ago he had to recruit while being on the hot seat just doesn't hold up. That's an excuse college coaches don't get.

 

He's fired after Stanford b/c his teams haven't performed to expectations. I completely agree. He was on the hot seat (in the media if not reality) in 2007, months after taking the team to a second consecutive BCS game, b/c his predecessor tanked the program.

 

He was on the hot seat because he lost 5 games in a row 10 months after getting absolutely destroyed in a BCS game his team had no business playing in. You make it sound like people just suddenly turned on him for no good reason.

 

9 freshman starters in 2007. Unable to field a full 2-deep. Fewer scholarship players on the team than any CFB team other than SMU during the "death penalty." The 2004 class (seniors in 2007) had six 2-star recruits. 6! I'd be interested to know if ND has signed a total of 6 2-star recruits in all of the non-Ty years combined.

 

You don't think that had anything to do with the team's record? Weis should be hung for not being able to field a competitive team of freshmen and sophomores against the 24th toughest schedule?

 

Are you just bored, jersey?

[NewUserName]

So just to understand, the argument is either that Weis is awful or that Weis is just bad and is still paying for the Willingham years?

[SouthSideRyan]

 

Navy's had a lot of fun these past two years.

 

Navy enjoyed losing last year?

[Tracer Bullet]

So just to understand, the argument is either that Weis is awful or that Weis is just bad and is still paying for the Willingham years?

 

Awful? No, the argument is whether he would have been fired in 2009 had Ty not screwed the program. Where he fits on the awesome to awful scale of college coaching is a pretty ridiculous argument to have here.

 

Had I known my statement would set off this firestorm, I may not have made it. The fact that Ty's actions had lasting effects didn't seem controversial. How significant and whether Weis would have been successful enough to survive this year without Ty's work seems like an interesting argument. That Ty's work had some negative impact did not.