Bears Week 17, TNF vs Seahawks, 7:15 pm

[WrigleyField 22]

16 minutes ago, minnesotacubsfan said:

Shea McClellin
 

god I hated emry 

McClellin flopped, but Long, Fuller, and Jeffrey were all pretty good Rd 1 and 2 picks.  He was bad, but so is Poles and charicaturing the other GMs to make Poles not seem as bad is silly.

[WrigleyField 22]

38 minutes ago, raw said:

I would like to think that, but the last GM traded up for a guy because he drove his grandmother's beater car, over what would be the best QB in the league when he also said he had them rated equal (Watson was more logical a pick). Emery would have surely taken Penix because he thought he was smarter than everyone else. Angelo would have kept Fields and traded back to get more 2nd round picks.

Nevermind the fact that none of the previous GMs would have had the Bears in position to have the #1 pick that led to the Caleb trade. They all would have tried to build the team around Khalil Mack and Robert Quinn. 

I mean yea the tank thing I'll give you, but if that's Poles only defining characteristic I'll thank him and can't wait for him to be out the door since it has nothing to do with football acumen.  I've seen enough smart coaches GMs improve teams fortunes without that kind of luck, if that's all he's offering.

 

The rest is such a charactutization of those GMs. Like yea they sucked, and did different goofy things... As has Poles.  He's really a contiuation the Bears recent past, not a departure from it.

Edited December 31, 2024 by WrigleyField 22

[raw]

7 minutes ago, WrigleyField 22 said:

I mean yea the tank thing I'll give you, but if that's Poles only defining characteristic I'll thank him and can't wait for him to be out the door since it has nothing to do with football acumen.  I've seen enough smart coaches GMs improve teams fortunes without that kind of luck, if that's all he's offering.

 

The rest is such a charactutization of those GMs. Like yea they sucked, and did different goofy things... As has Poles.  He's really a contiuation the Bears recent past, not a departure from it.

Obviously was a characturization of them. Was just trying argue my point. LOL.

And you make good points, but I guess I am giving him the benefit of the doubt based on the differences I have seen. Angelo traded down a bunch, almost for the sake of trading down when he found those great late picks. Pace traded up way too much. Poles has traded picks for players, players for picks, and generally used sound logic for the moves he's made. It's probably me having a bit of blind faith in the guy, but he was able to get a coach fired midseason for the first time. And I'm convinced it wasn't his doing to keep him. I just feel like he is different. Remains to be seen if different = good.

[gflore34]

54 minutes ago, raw said:

Obviously was a characturization of them. Was just trying argue my point. LOL.

And you make good points, but I guess I am giving him the benefit of the doubt based on the differences I have seen. Angelo traded down a bunch, almost for the sake of trading down when he found those great late picks. Pace traded up way too much. Poles has traded picks for players, players for picks, and generally used sound logic for the moves he's made. It's probably me having a bit of blind faith in the guy, but he was able to get a coach fired midseason for the first time. And I'm convinced it wasn't his doing to keep him. I just feel like he is different. Remains to be seen if different = good.

I'll give Poles credit for Caleb, I truly believe Poles knew Fields was a lost cause as a passer and the Carolina first rounder in 2024 was going to be very high pick.  Thereby, if necessary, enabling him to trade up for a QB, turns out that wasn't needed.

Wright is a good RT who I believe has been playing hurt most of the season, if he's healthy in 2025 he'll be fine.

I to, believe Poles wanted to fire Eberflus after last season but, McCaskey stepped in to keep him.  As for the remainder of his moves they've been, on the whole, terrible.

Moreover, if Poles is retained, I don't trust him to be able to identify what's needed to repair the offensive and defensive lines.  Most especially in free agency, he's got to target front line starter types, spend the money.

Edited December 31, 2024 by gflore34

[WrigleyField 22]

3 minutes ago, raw said:

Obviously was a characturization of them. Was just trying argue my point. LOL.

And you make good points, but I guess I am giving him the benefit of the doubt based on the differences I have seen. Angelo traded down a bunch, almost for the sake of trading down when he found those great late picks. Pace traded up way too much. Poles has traded picks for players, players for picks, and generally used sound logic for the moves he's made. It's probably me having a bit of blind faith in the guy, but he was able to get a coach fired midseason for the first time. And I'm convinced it wasn't his doing to keep him. I just feel like he is different. Remains to be seen if different = good.

Okay, we'll 99% of ALL GMs over the past 30 years would have taken Caleb so that comment was silly lol.

 

I do understand the draft pick and trade point.  Poles has done a decent job in terms of maximizing picks while also not forgoing all aggressiveness.  Unfortunately any apparent sound logic has had a lot of bad results.  Thats true even though some of those trades netted decent value (from a $ value perspective).  Of course he's so afraid of the cap he can't capitalize on net $ value surplus from exchanges like Mack-Brisker or Smith-Dexter.  Although the Claypool one hurt both those exchanges.

 

On record he's been as run and D hungry as any GM, often prioritizing run blocking WR in his first years and spending a lot of high picks and the bulk of FA spending on D.  And on results weve gotten awful O results, probably worse than Pace and Angelo and definitely Emery.

 

Granted I never agreed with the tank approach so I suspect I'm biased in a sense, but Caleb alone doesn't erase the rest of Poles' record. Any other positives are offset by enough negatives.

 

 

[Rex Buckingham]

I think raw hit the nail on the head. Poles probably isn't good enough, but I'd definitely rather him be making the choice at HC than Warren or any member of the McCaskey family

[Hairyducked Idiot]

2 hours ago, raw said:

I think it's crazier to trust the guy who can't get the stadium taken care of to get the GM hire right.

Poles 100% deserves to be fired. But it also just so happens that he's probably the most competent person currently in the organization to get things right.

The results have been disgustingly bad, but I think his thought process has been solid and different from recent Bears history. This franchise has been defense + running the ball from hell or high water. He had the guts to trade away the QB who made half of that equation among the best in the league. I can't say with any confidence that any other GM the Bears have ever had would taken Caleb and tried to gear the team to playing modern football. Everything about Poles (young, black, analytical) is a positive change from Bears past. And I think there's enough smoke out there that he wanted to get rid of Flus and wasn't allowed. 

The Bears historically would not even think about hiring Ben Johnson. They'd be hiring Vrabel or Carroll and trying to set a high floor with defense, rushing and discipline. 

Counterpoint: all that historicalness has led to the two longest losing streaks in franchise history in just 3 seasons 

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I don't have any issues with Warren other than him being a prayer weirdo 

[WrigleyField 22]

1 hour ago, Rex Buckingham said:

I think raw hit the nail on the head. Poles probably isn't good enough, but I'd definitely rather him be making the choice at HC than Warren or any member of the McCaskey family

McCaskey, obviously.

 

Warren. Hes a total unknown there... But it wouldn't also take a football savant to go hard at Ben Johnson.  That's what basically 80% of fans want and I think Warren could handle that (if that's what he'd want).

 

Like even to the extent that the stadium stuff hasn't gone well, I'm not sure that correlates to making a good hire one way or the other.  

 

Poles obviously has more football smarts than Warren, but nearly every GM is really football smart and still fail to hire successful coaches with great frequency.  Yet relatively competent owners (for this purpose Warren is ownership) who aren't necessarily football smart are capable of making strong coach hires when they're fairly obvious choices.  As a recent example, the Yorks hired Shannahan without John Lynch's guidance.  

 

So okay assume they're gonna strike out on Johnson anyways and it's a less obvious choice.  Even if you'd take Poles over Warren.. It doesn't have to be Poles either. You can start a  clean slate and take another swing at a GM-HC combo.  Of course that's then also in Warren's hands, but I'm not exactly fearful of what happens if they do worse than Poles at this stage. Or even if Warren just used what football people at his disposal (again every high ranking personnel exec is gonna have plenty of football smarts) and have a go at hiring a head coach.  The Lions who we now want to poach from hired a GM-HC pairing that wasn't some obvious pairing, together or even separately (and it was an arranged pairing as I understand it). They used other football people in the building they had and new advisers (more info here .https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/2263788/2020/12/15/chris-spielman-barry-sanders-lions-coach-gm-search?source=user-shared-article and their now COO is credited as identifying Holmes to the team) It's hard, but it can be done with just decent leadership. TBD if Warren is that.

Edited December 31, 2024 by WrigleyField 22

[We Got The Whole 9]

Its horsefeathers that we are in this position. With the resources weve had at our disposal over the last 3 years we should be ascending and we're not. Poles skipping FA for 2 years really horsefeathered us and i would fire him for that. 

 

Warren has been a total dud and should be fired too. 

 

McCaskey should fire them both and hire Johnson and hire who he wants as GM.

[Soul]

8 hours ago, We Got The Whole 9 said:

Its horsefeathers that we are in this position. With the resources weve had at our disposal over the last 3 years we should be ascending and we're not. Poles skipping FA for 2 years really horsefeathered us and i would fire him for that. 

 

Warren has been a total dud and should be fired too. 

 

McCaskey should fire them both and hire Johnson and hire who he wants as GM.

Yes, should.

[bddavidson]

If Poles is retained, I'm going to bury my head in the sand and operate from the assumption that Flus was forced on him and Poles immediately knew he sucked.  He then made moves that would ensure he got his QB but was also able to get his coach fired, knowing the QB would be attractive enough to any HC candidate.

He made this clear to Warren, who over prayer and washing his car, was in on it and helped him get Flus fired.

I'm a Bears and Badger fan (some absolutely not fun parallels between these teams this past 3 years), so forgive me if my football brain is completely rotted.

[WrigleyField 22]

11 minutes ago, bddavidson said:

If Poles is retained, I'm going to bury my head in the sand and operate from the assumption that Flus was forced on him and Poles immediately knew he sucked.  He then made moves that would ensure he got his QB but was also able to get his coach fired, knowing the QB would be attractive enough to any HC candidate.

He made this clear to Warren, who over prayer and washing his car, was in on it and helped him get Flus fired.

I'm a Bears and Badger fan (some absolutely not fun parallels between these teams this past 3 years), so forgive me if my football brain is completely rotted.

I'll save the "get him fired" conspiracy.

 

But if he gets an extension I have to believe for my own sanity that every speculation about him having Flus forced on him his true. And also that he was pressured to build the team according to Flus's desires. Like Flus being a psuedo shadow GM the whole time is the only thing that would give me comfort on Poles moving forward as GM.  And of course Poles will have to immediately start acting differently.

 

I'd also be fine if a Ben Johnson sidelined Poles into a glorified player personnel VP.  I saw a rumor that Ben Johnsons preferred exec is not Agnew as many have thrown around, but Mike Disner who is currently the COO of Detroit and has some early career experience in scouting but mostly is a business admin/cap guru.  I don't know if there is a way Ben can poach him without a GM title to offer, but if it's true I love the mindset.  More teams should think about broader GM skills than it just being a scout-savant. More cap nerds as GMs.

[minnesotacubsfan]

1 minute ago, WrigleyField 22 said:

....More cap nerds as GMs.

selfless promotion there wrigs....lol

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Poles has a list of bad, bizarre decisions every bit as long as any other Bears executive, and he's speedrun through them in under 3 years.

Despite how low the bar was set by his predecessors, Poles has managed to improbably limbo underneath it.  14-36, 2-15 in the division, losing streaks of 14 and 10(active).  That's a worse record than the Matt Patricia Lions.

This current bears team is in the midst of one of the most majestic implosions I've ever seen from a sports team, and any attempt to minimize the fallout is just going to delay the recovery.  The entire building is cancerous and our biggest concern should be how much of the roster we can feasibly turn over after replacing every single person in the front office 

[WrigleyField 22]

10 minutes ago, Hairyducked Idiot said:

Poles has a list of bad, bizarre decisions every bit as long as any other Bears executive, and he's speedrun through them in under 3 years.

Despite how low the bar was set by his predecessors, Poles has managed to improbably limbo underneath it.  14-36, 2-15 in the division, losing streaks of 14 and 10(active).  That's a worse record than the Matt Patricia Lions.

This current bears team is in the midst of one of the most majestic implosions I've ever seen from a sports team, and any attempt to minimize the fallout is just going to delay the recovery.  The entire building is cancerous and our biggest concern should be how much of the roster we can feasibly turn over after replacing every single person in the front office 

Thankfully I don't even think the roster needs wholesale changes. There's plenty of useful players. I don't want another "tear down" excuse (which was BS from start of Poles reign too). Poles seemed actively against his inherited guys for most of his time. If he is magically replaced I hope the next GM is more open to his inherited guys.

[Soul]

1 hour ago, bddavidson said:

If Poles is retained, I'm going to bury my head in the sand and operate from the assumption that Flus was forced on him and Poles immediately knew he sucked.  He then made moves that would ensure he got his QB but was also able to get his coach fired, knowing the QB would be attractive enough to any HC candidate.

He made this clear to Warren, who over prayer and washing his car, was in on it and helped him get Flus fired.

I'm a Bears and Badger fan (some absolutely not fun parallels between these teams this past 3 years), so forgive me if my football brain is completely rotted.

Oh God I thought I was the only one on here who suffered from the double-whammy of Bears & Badgers suckage.

[Outshined_One]

32 minutes ago, Soul said:

Oh God I thought I was the only one on here who suffered from the double-whammy of Bears & Badgers suckage.

Nope.  We're still around.

Also, I find it hilarious that the Bears are torn between firing and extending Poles.  If they think he's been good enough to keep around, then extend him and make an announcement today about it.  If they think he's been bad enough to fire him, then horsefeathers do it already.  There shouldn't be this abjectly bizarre in-between zone where both things are somehow true for the McCaskeys, and yet here we are.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

47 minutes ago, WrigleyField 22 said:

Thankfully I don't even think the roster needs wholesale changes. There's plenty of useful players. I don't want another "tear down" excuse (which was BS from start of Poles reign too). Poles seemed actively against his inherited guys for most of his time. If he is magically replaced I hope the next GM is more open to his inherited guys.

I hope they fire as many players into the sun as possible *and* don't use that as an excuse to not build for three years.

 

Williams, Odunze, Wright can stay.  Probably a couple of guys on defense but who cares about defense.  

 

Anyone else still here next year is a function of the limits of roster turnover 

Edited December 31, 2024 by Hairyducked Idiot

[BigSlick]

it hit me how insane it is this team is worse than the 2023 Bears. We're talking about upgrading pretty much every positional group (QB, RB, WR, OL (?), having consistency at coaching (lmao), upgrading (lmaoooooo) at Offensive Coordinator, having a full season of Montez Sweat (remember him? I don't) and having all the good vibes of the offseason and.....they're significantly worse than the mediocre ass 2023 Bears who started 0-4 and who's QB knew he was likely losing his job for the last month of the season. 

HOW? How are you worse than that moribund team? It's almost impossible. And yet they're *Significantly* worse than the 2023 Bears. 

Edited January 1, 2025 by BigSlick

[Hairyducked Idiot]

2 hours ago, BigSlick said:

it hit me how insane it is this team is worse than the 2023 Bears. We're talking about upgrading pretty much every positional group (QB, RB, WR, OL (?), having consistency at coaching (lmao), upgrading (lmaoooooo) at Offensive Coordinator, having a full season of Montez Sweat (remember him? I don't) and having all the good vibes of the offseason and.....they're significantly worse than the mediocre ass 2023 Bears who started 0-4 and who's QB knew he was likely losing his job for the last month of the season. 

HOW? How are you worse than that moribund team? It's almost impossible. And yet they're *Significantly* worse than the 2023 Bears. 

Offensive line injuries, a few spectacular end of game failures, and then the defense completely gave up 

[Brian707]

If the Hail Mary didn't blow up in their faces they go to 5-2, do they still come out flat against Arizona and New England the next two weeks?

If the GB kick isn't blocked that is another winner. The first Minnesota game I will still chalk up as a loss but the first Detroit game easily could have been a winner.

A lot of ifs but Washington, one of AZ/NE, GB, and the first Detroit game turn to winners they are 8-8 right now.

****** coaching, ****** execution, and a lot of negative variance has them at 4-12 

 

***- EDIT- Why is swearing not horsefeathers now? Instead its **** out

Edited January 2, 2025 by Brian707

[UMFan83]

2 hours ago, Brian707 said:

If the Hail Mary didn't blow up in their faces they go to 5-2, do they still come out flat against Arizona and New England the next two weeks?

If the GB kick isn't blocked that is another winner. The first Minnesota game I will still chalk up as a loss but the first Detroit game easily could have been a winner.

A lot of ifs but Washington, one of AZ/NE, GB, and the first Detroit game turn to winners they are 8-8 right now.

****** coaching, ****** execution, and a lot of negative variance has them at 4-12 

 

***- EDIT- Why is swearing not horsefeathers now? Instead its **** out

I definitely think the Hail Mary and the resulting fallout had a dramatic effect on the season.  It's very difficult to quantify how it changed the season because the team still had holes, a promising but inconsistent young QB, a dumbass coach and an extremely difficult schedule but I find it very difficult to believe that they lose those next 2 games after the exciting comeback win against Washington.  Credit to them they bounced back and played tough in the first 3 division games, in a strong position to win all 3, but they lost all of them and at that point the season was unsalvageable and the team fell apart.