Yoshinobu Yamamoto to...the Dodgers? Really? Again?

[Jason Ross]

Morosi keeps pushing that. He's on an island, however. I'd love the Cubs to be in on Yamamoto. But Mooney and Sharma seem to think that's a pretty good no-go (and they're going to be closer to the Cubs) as well, Hoyer's comments on Yamamoto were nice, but not overly glowing. Maybe he's playing it coy, doesn't want to let the cat out of the bag. But just further pushes Morosi on that island for me. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by 1908_Cubs

[Rcal10]

Yep, I think we need to come to the realization the Cubs will no be getting Ohtani, Yamamoto or Soto this off season. Have to produce a playoff team without those 3. 

[ILMindState]

https://x.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/1732442662861480181?s=20

[CubbyBlue2008]

13 minutes ago, Rcal10 said:

Yep, I think we need to come to the realization the Cubs will no be getting Ohtani, Yamamoto or Soto this off season. Have to produce a playoff team without those 3. 

Given the state of the NL Central, that shouldn’t that difficult. But producing a World Series contender is going to be difficult without any star level talent being injected into the roster. 
 

Perhaps there is a trade that gets us that player. But right now, our offseason is looking a little deflating.

[We Got The Whole 9]

I would be terrified to give him a 300m contract. I don't blame Jed at all if he walks away from those negotiations. 

[Irrelevant Dude]

Just now, NorthsideAvenger said:

If the Cubs cannot get Soto or Ohtani, then patience is needed. There will be stars becoming available at a later date.

Yeah, just get the next Ohtani. No problem.

[Jason Ross]

Just now, NorthsideAvenger said:

If the Cubs cannot get Soto or Ohtani, then patience is needed. There will be stars becoming available at a later date.

Perhaps there will, but there doesn't seem to be many available. I think it's fair to be worried about the Cubs adding stars to this roster at this stage. No one should say "never", and we shouldn't be super "woe is me" but I think it's really fair to look at the Cubs and wonder when that will be. Next offseason has a similar set of hitters past the one star, Soto, which, will be another uphill battle.

[CubinNY]

1 minute ago, We Got The Whole 9 said:

I would be terrified to give him a 300m contract. I don't blame Jed at all if he walks away from those negotiations. 

He's got a pretty spiffy resume. I'd be more worried about injury than production. But that is the same with any pitcher. If you want to win the WS sometimes you have to take big swings. It's only money and the Ricketts are swimming in it. 

[We Got The Whole 9]

We will likely be all over Bregman but I'm legitimately concerned that Jed will get scared out of that conversation as well. 

[Jason Ross]

1 minute ago, We Got The Whole 9 said:

We will likely be all over Bregman but I'm legitimately concerned that Jed will get scared out of that conversation as well. 

I like Bregman a lot, though he's an interesting case. The legitimate star player doesn't seem to be there and the power has taken a dip. He'll be 30, and while he'll likely be a good hitter, I think it's fair to wonder how many 130 wRC+ seasons will be left. His last 2,000 PA's have been a 125 wRC+ hitter, and he's decently reliant on the defense. Is that the $250m+ contract the Cubs pay out? Not shitting on him, just throwing down, that I think even Bregman is an interesting case and I'm just not sure that's the guy the Cubs go in on. Maybe they do, they love defense and approach.

[NorthsideAvenger]

Just now, 1908_Cubs said:

Perhaps there will, but there doesn't seem to be many available. I think it's fair to be worried about the Cubs adding stars to this roster at this stage. No one should say "never", and we shouldn't be super "woe is me" but I think it's really fair to look at the Cubs and wonder when that will be. Next offseason has a similar set of hitters past the one star, Soto, which, will be another uphill battle.

I think a guy like Jose Ramirez, for example, might become available. He's no Soto/Ohtani but he is a darn good player. In the absense of getting a superstar player, build a team full a good players. 

[NorthsideAvenger]

11 minutes ago, Irrelevant Dude said:

Yeah, just get the next Ohtani. No problem.

That is NOT what I am saying. I'm saying, it's not the end of the world. Not everybody can get Ohtani. 

[Jason Ross]

Just now, NorthsideAvenger said:

I think a guy like Jose Ramirez, for example, might become available. He's no Soto/Ohtani but he is a darn good player. In the absense of getting a superstar player, build a team full a good players. 

He just signed a really big contract to stay with Cleveland. I guess, maybe he does become available. But we're again, at a place where we're hoping a player might become available. Then it doesn't even add into everything that would go into acquiring him and the other teams. 

Which leads back to: I think it's fair for people to wonder "when?" as it pertains to the Cubs adding legitimately star level players. It doesn't mean it can't...but everything tends to hinge on "if" this player even becomes available. We've been kind of doing it for a bit now. I don't think they'll never get one again, but sometime might not be as soon as it needs to be, either.

[LBiittner]

1 minute ago, NorthsideAvenger said:

I think a guy like Jose Ramirez, for example, might become available. He's no Soto/Ohtani but he is a darn good player. In the absense of getting a superstar player, build a team full a good players. 

This was discussed awhile ago.

Ramirez is firmly invested in cleveland to the point he took a very very team friendly discount to re-sign with the guardians. 

[LBiittner]

Sorry for doubling up 1908

[NorthsideAvenger]

Just now, LBiittner said:

This was discussed awhile ago.

Ramirez is firmly invested in cleveland to the point he took a very very team friendly discount to re-sign with the guardians. 

I only use Ramirez as an example.

[Dfan25]

As long as Jed Hoyer is the president of baseball operations , it’s going to be difficult for this team to get stars. His plan seems to be just wait for the minor league system to produce those stars . Pretty risky 

[chibears55]

Cubs are playing in the shallow end of the pool..

Hoyer not going to give out big multi yr deals to anyone.

He gonna make a  trade for SP and go hard after Hoskins and someone to bridge CF until PCA is ready.

I really believe what Carter said about not blocking the prospects. 

Horton, PCA  and Shaw are tye key players their waiting on now along with Caissie, Alcantara,  and Brown. 

[Transmogrified Tiger]

This is half devil's advocate, so take it in that spirit, but do the Cubs have a fair amount of star power already?  

Last year Hoerner and Swanson were both a hair under 5 win players despite not having particularly good offensive seasons for their standards(and Swanson has a 6 win season in his past).  Seiya was Top 25 in wRC+ and his second half was at a 5 win level.  They're graduating a Top 25 prospect next year who will basically be another Hoerner in terms of the shape and magnitude of value if he can be averageish offensively.  What the Cubs *need* is more really good hitters, because they were 24th in wRC+ for 1B and 25th for DH.  Obviously superstar position players are mostly really good hitters, and if you can get a superstar of the Ohtani or Soto tier you should try to do so, but additions like Hoskins, or Pete Alonso if that kicks up again, or even Brandon Lowe can do a fair amount to raise the team's ceiling given that they have a lot of value monsters that just don't necessarily do it with power.

On the pitching side, they have last year's Cy Young finalist who was 7th in fWAR among pitchers, that's a pretty good start!  Also the strongest rumor they've been involved with is Glasnow, who is a Top 5-10 SP in baseball when healthy.  Plenty of upside still on the table even if Glasnow isn't a long term deal.  

 

I know it doesn't fill us with the warm and fuzzies like signing Ohtani or Yamamoto or trading for Soto would, but I do think the collective impact of e.g. a Glasnow trade and Hoskins signing is probably being underrated.

[Irrelevant Dude]

20 minutes ago, Transmogrified Tiger said:

I know it doesn't fill us with the warm and fuzzies like signing Ohtani or Yamamoto or trading for Soto would, but I do think the collective impact of e.g. a Glasnow trade and Hoskins signing is probably being underrated.

I think a team with Glasnow and Hoskins is significantly worse than a team with Stroman and Bellinger.  So how are the Cubs going to get better?  It's going to take a lot more than those two to make me feel ok about next year's team.

[Bertz]

20 minutes ago, Transmogrified Tiger said:

This is half devil's advocate, so take it in that spirit, but do the Cubs have a fair amount of star power already?  

Last year Hoerner and Swanson were both a hair under 5 win players despite not having particularly good offensive seasons for their standards(and Swanson has a 6 win season in his past).  Seiya was Top 25 in wRC+ and his second half was at a 5 win level.  They're graduating a Top 25 prospect next year who will basically be another Hoerner in terms of the shape and magnitude of value if he can be averageish offensively.  What the Cubs *need* is more really good hitters, because they were 24th in wRC+ for 1B and 25th for DH.  Obviously superstar position players are mostly really good hitters, and if you can get a superstar of the Ohtani or Soto tier you should try to do so, but additions like Hoskins, or Pete Alonso if that kicks up again, or even Brandon Lowe can do a fair amount to raise the team's ceiling given that they have a lot of value monsters that just don't necessarily do it with power.

On the pitching side, they have last year's Cy Young finalist who was 7th in fWAR among pitchers, that's a pretty good start!  Also the strongest rumor they've been involved with is Glasnow, who is a Top 5-10 SP in baseball when healthy.  Plenty of upside still on the table even if Glasnow isn't a long term deal.  

 

I know it doesn't fill us with the warm and fuzzies like signing Ohtani or Yamamoto or trading for Soto would, but I do think the collective impact of e.g. a Glasnow trade and Hoskins signing is probably being underrated.

I would say too, the team was 6th in runs scored last year and 16th in runs allowed.  I think the preferred aesthetic around here (including myself) is clearly for as much offense as possible.   An offseason around Ohtani or Soto likely brings the team into "best non-Braves offense in the league" territory, but the opportunity cost probably means run-prevention has to stay roughly average.  A Glasnow/Imanaga/two good-not-great bats type of offseason probably puts the team into the top 10 in both directions.

I prefer the high octane offense as well, but I think a more pitching-heavy offseason is still a path to a really strong team.  

[Jason Ross]

18 minutes ago, Transmogrified Tiger said:

This is half devil's advocate, so take it in that spirit, but do the Cubs have a fair amount of star power already?  

Last year Hoerner and Swanson were both a hair under 5 win players despite not having particularly good offensive seasons for their standards(and Swanson has a 6 win season in his past).  Seiya was Top 25 in wRC+ and his second half was at a 5 win level.  They're graduating a Top 25 prospect next year who will basically be another Hoerner in terms of the shape and magnitude of value if he can be averageish offensively.  What the Cubs *need* is more really good hitters, because they were 24th in wRC+ for 1B and 25th for DH.  Obviously superstar position players are mostly really good hitters, and if you can get a superstar of the Ohtani or Soto tier you should try to do so, but additions like Hoskins, or Pete Alonso if that kicks up again, or even Brandon Lowe can do a fair amount to raise the team's ceiling given that they have a lot of value monsters that just don't necessarily do it with power.

On the pitching side, they have last year's Cy Young finalist who was 7th in fWAR among pitchers, that's a pretty good start!  Also the strongest rumor they've been involved with is Glasnow, who is a Top 5-10 SP in baseball when healthy.  Plenty of upside still on the table even if Glasnow isn't a long term deal.  

 

I know it doesn't fill us with the warm and fuzzies like signing Ohtani or Yamamoto or trading for Soto would, but I do think the collective impact of e.g. a Glasnow trade and Hoskins signing is probably being underrated.

While I think these things are fair, I think it's important to note: mid 4 win players are good players but are not what I'd consider to be stars. Like, is TJ Friedl a star? Brandon Nimmo? There are some players like Tatis in this range too, but I'd argue Tatis isn't a star because he made 4.5 fWAR, but what he can do above that. These are players who can have all-star caliber seasons, but I would suggest don't raise the bar to the elite level. And it isn't that you can't build a team with a bunch of pretty darn good players, but truly elite teams have truly elite players. Is there a single Cub hitter you're confident, even with Hoskins or Lowe, or Belt, reaches a 130 wRC+? Is there a true game dominating SP we can count on? Even if we get Glasnow, it's a one year thing; it's not fun to have to continuously have to replace that. Not that this is the only barometer, but just using it as an example of where I find the deficiencies. 

I know it's half devil's advocate, but these are the issues with the Cubs right now that I see as we move forward because there are a lack of solutions (by nature, stars are hard to come by) and the Cubs remain a team I'm not confident has the ability to lean into the uncomfortable to acquire them. I don't mean to suggest they won't, but for a team who hasn't shown the ability to jump in to the true deep ends, I think maintaining a healthy skepticism they will, is fair (until they do).

[Tim]

9 minutes ago, Irrelevant Dude said:

I think a team with Glasnow and Hoskins is significantly worse than a team with Stroman and Bellinger.  So how are the Cubs going to get better?  It's going to take a lot more than those two to make me feel ok about next year's team.

Well, some were arguing that going from Ross to Counsell is worth eight wins right there!

 

(I don't agree, it's just a joke)

[imb]

i think the cubs are very in on Ohtani, because he's a once in a lifetime (or twice in a lifetime i guess) guy, he just doesn't want to play for us.

i think outside of the absolute top end guys (I guess soto fits here too but the asking price is too much) the cubs are willing to see what they have with horton, pca, shaw, caissie, alcantara, whatever, before they go in for like a second-tier star. 

I don't think that's a good plan necessarily but i think that's what's on Hoyer's mind.

[Jason Ross]

3 minutes ago, Bertz said:

I would say too, the team was 6th in runs scored last year and 16th in runs allowed.  I think the preferred aesthetic around here (including myself) is clearly for as much offense as possible.   An offseason around Ohtani or Soto likely brings the team into "best non-Braves offense in the league" territory, but the opportunity cost probably means run-prevention has to stay roughly average.  A Glasnow/Imanaga/two good-not-great bats type of offseason probably puts the team into the top 10 in both directions.

I prefer the high octane offense as well, but I think a more pitching-heavy offseason is still a path to a really strong team.  

I think my issue, as I see it, is how the Cubs operate. And maybe it's a personal choice issue, maybe I'm way off (I always know there's personal stuff here) but it feels like the Cubs are operating less like a powerhouse team like the Astros, the Yankees, the Mets, the Dodgers (which they can) and more as if Cleveland had a bigger budget. It's a team that feels like it's designed to make higher budget market inefficiency decisions that leans heavily into run prevention with just enough offense to boot. I know we finished 6th in runs scored, I do question a bit the RD and runs in total (I think there's a bit of a smoke and mirror thing with some of the blowouts). Just a personal feeling more so than probably anything.