lee traded to atlanta for 3 minor league pitchers

[dew1679666265]

Completely agreed. Even if the Cubs wanted to go with a Soto/Soriano/Dewitt/Castro/Ramirez/Fukudome/Byrd/Colvin lineup to save money, of those 8 players Soriano would only be 3rd to 5th on that list to play 1st. The Cubs could create many better defensive lineups by shifting other players around than Soriano. And that doesn't even address all the free agents, and the Cubs wouldn't have to find a very good one at all to be better than moving Soriano to 1st.

 

Someone said that players with defensive deficiencies move to 1st all the time. Most players deficiencies are not like Soriano though. Players who move to 1st tend to either be too slow to play anywhere else or have a bad shoulder and cannot throw as much anymore. I can't think of an example of a player who moved to 1st only because he had poor hands at another position (one might be out there, but they probably are few). You would not be hiding Soriano at 1st at all.

 

And while a lot of people can play acceptable first base defense which makes it less important as a whole, at the margins first base defense can be very important. And while Lee probably qualified as one guy who could actually help his team defensively at 1B, Soriano would almost certainly hurt the team badly there.

 

While I recognize there are some advantages to moving him, moving an average defender at LF to become a terrible defender at 1B which also happens to require slightly more offense over the last 5-6 years is almost certainly a very bad move.

 

You're making good points and I don't necessarily disagree, but I keep thinking a move to first would keep him much healthier longer. And that's important for a guy with his kind of contract.

 

It's important enough to at least try him there, I think - even if it's just a spring training experiment or something.

[Sammy Sofa]

If he was not a horrible in the outfield I would leave him where he is but I don't see him getting any better out there at this point.

 

He's not horrible in the OF.

 

I've seen him play horribly many many times and make very few catches that were not routine. On a scale from 1-10(10 being the best) he would come in around a 4 IMO and he is only that high b/c he has a great arm. He is better than Dunn out there but is well below average.

 

You're not basing this on anything except what you think you've seen?

 

What I think I've seen???? He does not go come in, go back, or go to his right well. He does cover a decent amount of ground to his left - not as much as he should with his speed though.

 

I'm just letting you clarify what you're measuring his defensive capabilities by.

[risico]

There's a huge difference between "average" and "replacement level".

 

Also, the Cubs don't seem to be in a position to spend a bunch of money. If they could sign a great 1B I'd be all for it, but if not you have to look for a cost-effective option. Soriano isn't a cost-effective option.

 

cost-effective option? what the hell are you talking about? he's already on the team.

 

the cost effective option is to move soriano to first and replace him with colvin in left instead of spending the millions an average first baseman that you could be using to make an attempt at a starting pitcher.

 

I imagine next season Soriano will play left and Colvin will be the regular RF. The Cubs will either sign an average 1B as a stopgap or they will try to promote someone from within and hope they can hold the position until more money comes off the books.

 

and fukudome's salary is magically coming off of the books? putting colvin in left IS money off the books.

 

Soriano is on the roster - great. You're not grasping the point here - Soriano will lose a bunch of his current value if he shifts to 1B. He is a solid defender in LF and LFers are tougher to find, on average, than 1B. If you move Soriano to 1B you have a replacement-level player being paid a huge amount of money. At least as a LF he somewhat justifies his pay. The money on him is already spent, but you still have to maximize his value as a player. You wouldn't buy a dozen eggs so you could drop 8 on the ground and eat 4. That's what you're doing in moving Soriano to 1B - minimizing the value of something you've already bought. It's kind of like using Zambrano in the bullpen.

 

A cost-effective option at 1B is someone like Hoffpauir, LaHair, or any of a number of guys who will be available that have actually played 1B at some point in their careers.

 

You don't take an above-average defensive OF and put him at a position for which he's not suited. Soriano's main assets defensively are his range and his arm. Neither of those will transfer well to 1B. His main weakness is his ability to catch the ball.

 

Colvin is cheap and he's really not that good. The Cubs should have no interest in moving Soriano away from the OF just to get Fukudome and Colvin, 2 average players, into the lineup.

[dew1679666265]

What average 1B is available? Dunn? He's going to be way overpriced for what he brings to the team. Signing a player to be a stopgap at first is a terrible waste of money.

 

Dunn will be overpriced?

 

If he gets something close to the 4/60 deal he's looking for, yes, he will be overpriced - and I'm a pretty big Dunn fan. And I think he may get something similar to that since the other best free agents on the market are Jorge Cantu and maybe Russell Branyan.

[risico]

There are very few LF's that posess his combination of speed and arm out there and while he definitely makes more bad plays out there than most, that still doesn't drag him down below the guys who can't get to balls unless it's hit right at them.

 

This sentence brings back memories of Glenallen Hill. A coatrack in LF with a hat and glove on it would have been a better defender than him.

 

There are some truly horrific defensive corner OFs in the game. Compared to defensive nightmares like Adam Dunn and Brad Hawpe, Soriano's actually not that awful.

 

Don't forget Manny and Carlos Lee.

[Guest]

What average 1B is available? Dunn? He's going to be way overpriced for what he brings to the team. Signing a player to be a stopgap at first is a terrible waste of money.

 

Dunn will be overpriced?

 

If he gets something close to the 4/60 deal he's looking for, yes, he will be overpriced - and I'm a pretty big Dunn fan. And I think he may get something similar to that since the other best free agents on the market are Jorge Cantu and maybe Russell Branyan.

Pena.

[questionmarkgrace]

What average 1B is available? Dunn? He's going to be way overpriced for what he brings to the team. Signing a player to be a stopgap at first is a terrible waste of money.

 

Dunn will be overpriced?

 

If he gets something close to the 4/60 deal he's looking for, yes, he will be overpriced - and I'm a pretty big Dunn fan. And I think he may get something similar to that since the other best free agents on the market are Jorge Cantu and maybe Russell Branyan.

Pena.

 

given his off year he might be cheap.

 

given his off year he might also suck.

 

 

The D-lee deal isn't bad the 19 year old looks promising. It seems like hendry prefers quantity to quality though we always end up getting two or three really green a-ballers back. Maybe its his organizational philosophy because this is the same way we sign players out of latin america low bonuses many signings and up until recently in asia. I would have liked to have seen a position player at second or first coming back given that first is an organizational hole right now and i'm not convinced by our in house second base options for next year.

[NCCubFan]

Reports that Hoffpauir is being recalled are probably erroneous. He has not spent the required 10 days in the minors since being sent down. The only way he can come up tomorrow is if the Cubs also make another move, placing somebody on the DL.

[dew1679666265]

What average 1B is available? Dunn? He's going to be way overpriced for what he brings to the team. Signing a player to be a stopgap at first is a terrible waste of money.

 

Dunn will be overpriced?

 

If he gets something close to the 4/60 deal he's looking for, yes, he will be overpriced - and I'm a pretty big Dunn fan. And I think he may get something similar to that since the other best free agents on the market are Jorge Cantu and maybe Russell Branyan.

Pena.

 

You're right, I forgot about Pena. Nonetheless, Dunn is by far the best 1B option on the market this offseason. Pena should help bring his price down a bit, though, I hope.

[Tryptamine]

I have to wonder what happens if Wellington Castillo shows some MLB ability. Does Soto go to first since he's had some health issues? He could play the Vmart role and be the back up catcher/starting 1B with Hoffpauir backing up 1B.

[Outshined_One]

I have to wonder what happens if Wellington Castillo shows some MLB ability. Does Soto go to first since he's had some health issues? He could play the Vmart role and be the back up catcher/starting 1B with Hoffpauir backing up 1B.

 

You still run into the problem that there are very few worthwhile catchers in free agency this year. Soto at 1B would also hurt Soto's value substantially since his bat is premium-level for a catcher, but only somewhat above average at 1B. Even if Castillo could hit at an average level for a catcher, I don't think that would help the offense.

 

It's better to have an average 1B and an elite catcher than two average to slightly above average players at 1B and C.

[Magnetic Curses]

There's a huge difference between "average" and "replacement level".

 

Also, the Cubs don't seem to be in a position to spend a bunch of money. If they could sign a great 1B I'd be all for it, but if not you have to look for a cost-effective option. Soriano isn't a cost-effective option.

 

cost-effective option? what the hell are you talking about? he's already on the team.

 

the cost effective option is to move soriano to first and replace him with colvin in left instead of spending the millions an average first baseman that you could be using to make an attempt at a starting pitcher.

 

I imagine next season Soriano will play left and Colvin will be the regular RF. The Cubs will either sign an average 1B as a stopgap or they will try to promote someone from within and hope they can hold the position until more money comes off the books.

 

and fukudome's salary is magically coming off of the books? putting colvin in left IS money off the books.

 

Soriano is on the roster - great. You're not grasping the point here - Soriano will lose a bunch of his current value if he shifts to 1B. He is a solid defender in LF and LFers are tougher to find, on average, than 1B. If you move Soriano to 1B you have a replacement-level player being paid a huge amount of money. At least as a LF he somewhat justifies his pay. The money on him is already spent, but you still have to maximize his value as a player. You wouldn't buy a dozen eggs so you could drop 8 on the ground and eat 4. That's what you're doing in moving Soriano to 1B - minimizing the value of something you've already bought. It's kind of like using Zambrano in the bullpen.

 

you aren't looking at anything in context. it's not simply what soriano can or can't individually provide at first. if he simply repeats this season and colvin is at or above an .800 OPS in left over the course of a season, and we are able to sign a guy like lee at the front of the rotation, it will be far more valuable than any league average first baseman, signed at whatever a league average first baseman makes, plus soriano's production in left.

 

A cost-effective option at 1B is someone like Hoffpauir, LaHair, or any of a number of guys who will be available that have actually played 1B at some point in their careers.

 

hoffpauir is obviously the answer to all of our problems. yep, there's your "average 1b" right there, haha. if he's your "average 1b" then we're all in trouble.

 

You don't take an above-average defensive OF and put him at a position for which he's not suited. Soriano's main assets defensively are his range and his arm. Neither of those will transfer well to 1B. His main weakness is his ability to catch the ball.

 

yes yes, mhuber made it perfectly clear that soriano can't catch the ball, so, case closed.

 

Colvin is cheap and he's really not that good. The Cubs should have no interest in moving Soriano away from the OF just to get Fukudome and Colvin, 2 average players, into the lineup.

 

i don't know what your problem with colvin is, he's been good this year. and somehow this notion of him having a "career year" in his rookie year seems [expletive]. he's earned a shot.

[Tryptamine]

I have to wonder what happens if Wellington Castillo shows some MLB ability. Does Soto go to first since he's had some health issues? He could play the Vmart role and be the back up catcher/starting 1B with Hoffpauir backing up 1B.

 

You still run into the problem that there are very few worthwhile catchers in free agency this year. Soto at 1B would also hurt Soto's value substantially since his bat is premium-level for a catcher, but only somewhat above average at 1B. Even if Castillo could hit at an average level for a catcher, I don't think that would help the offense.

 

It's better to have an average 1B and an elite catcher than two average to slightly above average players at 1B and C.

 

I'm really just looking for an excuse to get Chirinos some MLB at bats. :)

[Rob]

If you really feel compelled to move an OF to 1B sulley, Colvin should be the one you're looking at.

 

Note that in no way do I endorse such a move.

[XZero771679666304]

I like the Dunn idea, but if the Cubs sign Dunn, do they still pursue AGon? Dunn is going to get at least 3 years from someone.

 

I think the better play is to sign a Branyan or Pena and make a run at Gonzalez for 2012.

[Geech]

hoffpauir is obviously the answer to all of our problems. yep, there's your "average 1b" right there, haha. if he's your "average 1b" then we're all in trouble.

 

I love the idea that Soriano would be replacement level at first base while Hoffpauir is somehow average. I guess people are assuming that Soriano would be 30 runs below average in the field or something.

 

Anyway, if people are really concerned about Soriano's defense at first, moving Colvin instead is fine with me. I think Colvin is likely to penciled in as a starter one way or another next season, so unless we get rid of Fukudome this is a much more cost effective solution than hiring a free agent stopgap at first.

[Guest]

So the idea is that we don't have anyone to play at 1st, the 1B in FA are bad/overpriced, so we move Soriano from our surplus of OF to 1B because it's the easiest position. Doesn't that logic work with several alternatives besides Soriano? Like CCP said, Soriano to 1st is taking away everything he is good at defensively and magnifying everything he does poorly. So if his production is going to be around anyway, why not move Colvin to 1st? Why not sign Hawpe or Cuddyer and move them to 1B?

 

Because if you're not going out and getting someone with the production of a Dunn, then you're putting a ceiling on your offense anyway. Without transcendent performances elsewhere, you aren't going to have a top offense without above average 1B production. No, this is the time for the Cubs to try to make a play. If that's Dunn's consistency, then that's not terrible. If that's Gonzalez and his contract, then that's expensive but not regrettable. If that's gambling on a rebounding player breakout like with Barrett or Dempster, then that's the roll of the die you have to make. If that means giving Wainwright and Rasmus lupus so Pujols leaves in next year, then super. Because shuffling a mediocre 1B into that spot, be it Soriano, Colvin, Pena, Hawpe, etc. is just going to make it very difficult for the offense to be good.

 

Personally, I'm a big fan of trying to talk Dayton Moore out of Billy Butler, as I've said a few times. I'd also explore just how much it would take to convince Bill Smith that he'd be better served trading Morneau and his injury history and gaining the payroll flexibility + players in return.

[davearm2]

Soriano is on the roster - great. You're not grasping the point here - Soriano will lose a bunch of his current value if he shifts to 1B. He is a solid defender in LF and LFers are tougher to find, on average, than 1B. If you move Soriano to 1B you have a replacement-level player being paid a huge amount of money. At least as a LF he somewhat justifies his pay. The money on him is already spent, but you still have to maximize his value as a player. You wouldn't buy a dozen eggs so you could drop 8 on the ground and eat 4. That's what you're doing in moving Soriano to 1B - minimizing the value of something you've already bought. It's kind of like using Zambrano in the bullpen.

 

A cost-effective option at 1B is someone like Hoffpauir, LaHair, or any of a number of guys who will be available that have actually played 1B at some point in their careers.

 

You don't take an above-average defensive OF and put him at a position for which he's not suited. Soriano's main assets defensively are his range and his arm. Neither of those will transfer well to 1B. His main weakness is his ability to catch the ball.

 

Colvin is cheap and he's really not that good. The Cubs should have no interest in moving Soriano away from the OF just to get Fukudome and Colvin, 2 average players, into the lineup.

He's grasping the point just fine. The point is, the Cubs have a particular inventory of players that are already on the roster, and their salaries are a sunk cost. The exercise here is to deploy them in the most effective way.

 

Specifically, which of the following regular lineups wins the most games:

a) Soriano 1B, Colvin LF, Hoffpauir/LeHair bench

b) Colvin 1B, Soriano LF, Hoffpauir/LeHair bench

c) Soriano LF, Hoffpauir/LeHair 1B, Colvin bench

d) Colvin LF, Hoffpauir/LeHair 1B, Soriano bench

 

Cost is no consideration. All are paid for. The only value question is, which lineup wins the most games.

 

Now of course you could complicate the equation by adding a free agent 1B for $X, but then the analysis would look like this:

e) best option of a), b), c) and d) above, PLUS $X to spend elsewhere

f) FA 1B for $X, Colvin/Soriano LF, Hoffpauir/LeHair + Colvin/Soriano bench

[davearm2]

What average 1B is available? Dunn? He's going to be way overpriced for what he brings to the team. Signing a player to be a stopgap at first is a terrible waste of money.

 

Dunn will be overpriced?

 

If he gets something close to the 4/60 deal he's looking for, yes, he will be overpriced - and I'm a pretty big Dunn fan. And I think he may get something similar to that since the other best free agents on the market are Jorge Cantu and maybe Russell Branyan.

Dunn didn't get anywhere close to 4/60 two years ago. 2/20 is what he got -- half the years and 1/3 the dollars.

 

Not sure why he'd get a significantly better deal than 2/20 now, considering he's 2 years older, and generally speaking, MLB is in no better financial shape.

[davearm2]

I like the Dunn idea, but if the Cubs sign Dunn, do they still pursue AGon? Dunn is going to get at least 3 years from someone.

 

I think the better play is to sign a Branyan or Pena and make a run at Gonzalez for 2012.

Count me as intrigued by Pena.

 

IIRC his defense is considered very good, he's got great patience at the plate, the power's obviously there, and a move to the NL/Wrigley could be beneficial.

[Dallas Green]

Not sure if anyone posted this by fangraphs:

 

Instead of dumping Lee’s salary and getting little in return, the Cubs were aggressive, and threw cash into the deal to help coax some legitimate value out of this deal. Jim Hendry deserves major credit for this trade, as instead of spending his money on an aging first baseman on a fifth place team, he now has three more solid pitching prospects to load into his system. This is just an excellent overall pickup for Chicago

[davearm2]

Not sure if anyone posted this by fangraphs:

 

Instead of dumping Lee’s salary and getting little in return, the Cubs were aggressive, and threw cash into the deal to help coax some legitimate value out of this deal. Jim Hendry deserves major credit for this trade, as instead of spending his money on an aging first baseman on a fifth place team, he now has three more solid pitching prospects to load into his system. This is just an excellent overall pickup for Chicago

Reports say that Lee passed through waivers. So nobody wanted him for free at his salary.

 

Throwing cash into the deal was Hendry's only option.

[Cubbie Swagger]

Hendry from the ESPN article: "It's unfortunate we got ourselves in the spot we're in now. The overall situation we're in makes us all somewhere between miserable and sad every day."

[davearm2]

Hendry from the ESPN article: "It's unfortunate we got ourselves in the spot we're in now. The overall situation we're in makes us all somewhere between miserable and sad every day."

Not surprisingly, the Cubs' play on the field has been somewhere between miserable and sad every day.

[SouthSideRyan]

Not sure if anyone posted this by fangraphs:

 

Instead of dumping Lee’s salary and getting little in return, the Cubs were aggressive, and threw cash into the deal to help coax some legitimate value out of this deal. Jim Hendry deserves major credit for this trade, as instead of spending his money on an aging first baseman on a fifth place team, he now has three more solid pitching prospects to load into his system. This is just an excellent overall pickup for Chicago

Reports say that Lee passed through waivers. So nobody wanted him for free at his salary.

 

Throwing cash into the deal was Hendry's only option.

 

Atlanta didn't have as much of a need before Chipper got hurt. It's possible they'd have paid the full freight after the injury.