Michael Wuertz traded to A's for 2 minor leaguers (p. 2)

[MixmastaMiguel]

Marmol, Gregg, Gaudin, Cotts, Marshall, Guzman, Vizcaino, Samardzija.

 

That's still 1 too many pitchers. We need to trade Vizcaino, or I'm afraid Shark will be starting in the minors. Or just get rid of Marshall and Guzman in the same trade for Peavy.

 

Vitters, Marshall, Guzman, Hart, and Stevens for Peavy

[jersey cubs fan]

Anyone else think the Heilman trade made Wuertz expendable?

 

 

Not really, I think Vizcaino is more likely to take the Wuertz role, with Heilman starting.

[Outshined_One]

Bullpen candidates on the 40 man

 

Jose Ascanio

Mitch Atkins

Justin Berg

Neal Cotts

Chad Gaudin

Kevin Gregg

Angel Guzman

Kevin Hart

Aaron Heilman

Carlos Marmol

Sean Marshall

Marcos Mateo

David Patton (Rule 5)

Jeff Samardzija

Jeff Stevens

Luis Vizcaino

Randy Wells

 

Obviously all of these guys won't be in the bullpen at the start of next season. However, there's a large pool to draw from and Wuertz wasn't the best of them.

[jersey cubs fan]

Marmol, Gregg, Gaudin, Cotts, Marshall, Guzman, Vizcaino, Samardzija.

 

That's still 1 too many pitchers. We need to trade Vizcaino, or I'm afraid Shark will be starting in the minors. Or just get rid of Marshall and Guzman in the same trade for Peavy.

 

Vitters, Marshall, Guzman, Hart, and Stevens for Peavy

 

What's too be afraid of, Samardzija should start in the minors?. Unless he has an amazing spring, the guy needs to build up the innings in the minors so he can eventually start in the majors.

[jersey cubs fan]

Bullpen candidates on the 40 man

 

Jose Ascanio

Mitch Atkins

Justin Berg

Neal Cotts

Chad Gaudin

Kevin Gregg

Angel Guzman

Kevin Hart

Aaron Heilman

Carlos Marmol

Sean Marshall

Marcos Mateo

David Patton (Rule 5)

Jeff Samardzija

Jeff Stevens

Luis Vizcaino

Randy Wells

 

Obviously all of these guys won't be in the bullpen at the start of next season. However, there's a large pool to draw from and Wuertz wasn't the best of them.

 

No, but he was probably 3rd or 4th.

[The Other 15]

We saw how "Going in Howry and Eyre were a bit more dependable than guys like Vizaino and Cotts" worked out. We still don't know that Marmol wont be the anytime guy, Gregg is not very different than Wood as closer (Where is it written that Wood has no chance to put up worse numbers and Gregg has no chance to put up better ones?) and Samarzija is still there to be used if the need arises like last year. We can talk about possible downgrades all we like, but all things being equal (they never are, but still,...) the bullpen is very similar to last seasons.

 

Nothing is written in stone, but it seems to me it's fairly obvious they've down graded from what they had to what they have.

With bullpen performances, things are not what they seem. I still don't think the bullpen is that drastically different. Time will tell and I'll be sure to revisit this by June.

[Little Slide Rooter]

Between Hill, Wuertz, Pie, and Cedeno, I have to think that we could have packaged some of these guys and gotten something more worthwhile.

[Rob]

There is no climbing out of Lou's doghouse.

 

I still wish we'd hired Freddi Gonzalez.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

Personally, I had no problem trading Wuertz. I do have a problem trading Wuertz for garbage, which is what this appears to me.

 

I just can't fathom that this would be all Hendry could have gotten for him.

[pitchcs]

Between Hill, Wuertz, Pie, and Cedeno, I have to think that we could have packaged some of these guys and gotten something more worthwhile.

 

Hendry probably could have had his pick of the litter 3 years ago.

[erik316wttn]

We saw how "Going in Howry and Eyre were a bit more dependable than guys like Vizaino and Cotts" worked out. We still don't know that Marmol wont be the anytime guy, Gregg is not very different than Wood as closer (Where is it written that Wood has no chance to put up worse numbers and Gregg has no chance to put up better ones?) and Samarzija is still there to be used if the need arises like last year. We can talk about possible downgrades all we like, but all things being equal (they never are, but still,...) the bullpen is very similar to last seasons.

 

Nothing is written in stone, but it seems to me it's fairly obvious they've down graded from what they had to what they have.

 

Not just in the bullpen, either. We've downgraded with just about every transaction this year, with the exception of Bradley. It's like Hendry is tanking on purpose.

 

It's not really tanking. The downgrades haven't been all that huge, the annoying thing is that there are just so many of them.

 

But it adds up quickly. This team is noticeably worse than last year, and by a fair margin.

[cubsfan26]

No, it's based off stats. You may be of the opinon that stats don't matter. But if you had one guy put up X numbers the previous year, and replaced him with a guy that typically puts up less than X, people are going to be disappointed.

 

 

Or you could realize that stats often change year by year. A year ago at this time, everybody was waiting for Rich Hill to have a great season. Everybody thought Dempster would suck in the rotation or be mediocre at best. Who would have thought Derrek Lee OPS would have dropped of 90 points, but Theriot would improve 74 points? Who could have predicted Soriano only playing in 109 games due to mostly a freak HBP injury, but DeRosa OPS would improve 66 points. Who thought Jim Edmonds after being released by a bad Padres team, would hit 19 HR with a 937 OPS in 250 AB's for us? How likely was it for Kerry Wood to not have arm/shoulder trouble for all of 08?

 

 

Nobody knows how good or bad Fontenot is going to be. Nobody knows if Miles will hit like he did last year or come close to it. Nobody knows if Bradley can better health, after resting his body as a DH, and now playing full-time RF in a small ballpark for the first time. Nobody knows how much better the pen could be with Vizcaino, Gregg, Heilman or Gaudin for a full healthy year. Nobody knows if Heilman, Gaudin and Marshall will be better then Marquis or not, or if we add another SP still. Baseball is too unpredictable for fans to be soo sure we downgraded the team. Numbers just makes things more likely and unlikely. They don't show guys figuring something out and improving as players, or having random good or bad years. Hendry or Hendry scouts have found players over the last few seasons, that there previous career numbers would say they wouldn't be as good as they ended up being for us. So people really need to just sit back relax, and see some of these moves work out. Being negative and saying we downgraded at this point of the year is pointless, because nobody knows that yet. In May if these moves appear as downgrades then complain. Hendry track record over the last two years, would show that he often knows something we don't.

Edited February 2, 2009 by cubsfan26

[MixmastaMiguel]

I would say that this team is noticeably better than last season, and I'm tired of people saying we're worse. How are we worse?? Because we replaced Wood with Gregg? Um no, not any worse. Because we went from DeRosa and Edmonds to Miles and Bradley? Nope, still better there. We went from Marquis to Heilman?? To me there's another upgrade. Getting Harden, Guzman, Gaudin, and Shark for a full year over guys like Howry, Eyre, and Fox. Hoffpauir over Ward. Platoon Fukudome and Reed instead of just Fukudome all year.

 

We didn't need to make any improvements this offseason, but we did, and it will make a big difference.

[Mephistopheles]

Between Hill, Wuertz, Pie, and Cedeno, I have to think that we could have packaged some of these guys and gotten something more worthwhile.

 

Hendry probably could have had his pick of the litter 3 years ago.

 

You can't really crucify Hendry on this guys. Had he traded them then and they became good, you'd crucify him. He took a gamble that many people would have been willing to take (on Pie and Rich). Rich Hill was outstanding for a year and half and looked poised to break out last season. Michael Wuertz and Ronny Cedeno never had much value to begin with so it's irrelevant.

[erik316wttn]

Maybe Vitters will be traded for a salami and cheese sandwich by the end of the week.

 

Trading chips? Pfft, we don't need those!

[CubinNY]

It's weird, I don't mind this trade as Wuertz wasn't going to be utilized by Lou. Hendry did everyone concerned a favor. We have to hope one of the two prospects nets the Cubs something in the future.

 

Hendry is the perfect example of how a big payroll can make up for a lot of deficiencies.

[erik316wttn]

Hendry is the perfect example of how a big payroll can make up for a lot of deficiencies.

 

You, sir, have won an entire bag of internets.

 

A big budget has covered up a lot of Hendry's shortcomings. If he was in a mid-market he'd have been canned long ago.

 

Yes, I know the whole Aram, Nomar, Lee, Harden thing was possible BECAUSE of a big payroll, but if we had someone competent in there, I bet we could have gotten those guys and a few other complimentary pieces that would be looking mighty good right now.

 

Oh, and maybe our farm system wouldn't be the equivalent of a bunch of kindergarteners playing whiffle ball.

[Transmogrified Tiger]

if you can only keep guzman or wuertz, and trading either will result in getting junk back, don't you have to keep wuertz? i mean, what's the likelihood that guzman both stays healthy and is effective?

 

I think you've got to keep Guzman. Odds are they'll be similar performance-wise, and if you don't have either(Guzman hurt, Wuertz traded), it's not difficult to find someone like Ascanio or Stevens to put up similar numbers. Plus Guzman gives you the best likelihood to be significantly better than projected. Maybe if we're deciding between them for the 8th or 9th inning role, but for the 3rd/4th righty in the pen, it's worth that small gamble.

[Mephistopheles]

I would say that this team is noticeably better than last season, and I'm tired of people saying we're worse. How are we worse?? Because we replaced Wood with Gregg? Um no, not any worse. Because we went from DeRosa and Edmonds to Miles and Bradley? Nope, still better there. We went from Marquis to Heilman?? To me there's another upgrade. Getting Harden, Guzman, Gaudin, and Shark for a full year over guys like Howry, Eyre, and Fox. Hoffpauir over Ward. Platoon Fukudome and Reed instead of just Fukudome all year.

 

We didn't need to make any improvements this offseason, but we did, and it will make a big difference.

 

C'mon Miguel. You're kidding yourself here. First of all, we'd be worse if we didn't make a single move, if only for the fact that we will be expected regress in quite a few areas next season. We weren't a 97 win team heading into the offseason and we certainly aren't one heading out of the offseason. Let's look branch by branch.

 

1.) Kevin Gregg to Kerry Wood

 

This is a pretty poor downgrade. We go from one of the top ten relievers in the game, who's a good health guy at this point (shove it naysayers you're wrong) and go from a guy, who if we stretched it, would barely qualify among that top fifty relievers in the game. You could make a case for him being outside the top 100 if you wanted to. In the greater scheme of things, it probably costs a few runs in high leverage situations, thanks to Gregg being in the game in the seventh and eighth with a tough jam instead of Carlos Marmol.

 

2.) DeRosa and Edmonds to Miles and Bradley

 

Well if you throw defense out the window, I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that we're any better. Mark DeRosa was very very very very very productive last season and Aaron Miles is Neifi Perez without the defense. Sure Bradley's better than Edmonds, except for the fact that Bradley's probably going to get hurt and Edmonds (and the Cubs CFers in general) produced top five centerfield numbers for the Cubs last season. We got a TON of production out of center field last year. The way I see it, Fukudome goes to center, and we still get Fukudome. So we're replacing our CF production with Milton Bradley, and giving Bradley just 500 PAs instead of 650 is a wash. Signing Bradley only let's us keep the offensive production we got in center last year - not improve on it. Our overall team defense might improve in the outfield, as Edmonds was a tree in center, but so is Bradley. I am really seeing these moves as lateral at best and more expensive. I think any improvement we're going to get is going to be from resurgent Derrek Lee and Kosuke Fukudome campaigns, as both players (especially KF) played well below their potential in 2008.

 

3.) Marquis to Heilman

 

There's no improvement here. We're the same. Marquis and Heilman are interchangeable and this is another lateral move, albeit a cheaper-ish one cash wise. Heilman may end up with a slightly better RA, but the difference is made up in Marquis' elite SP bat, similar to Fat Z.

 

4.) Harden

 

It's Harden, not Hardin. He's already hurt, to expect more than we got last year is foolish.

 

5.) Gaudin blows. Shark is good unless he remembers that he doesn't get whiffs. Guzman's an unknown at this point. I do think there's a chance he's the number five by May in the current setup.

[KingCubsFan]

Another dumb move by Hendry. What a terrible offseason. Leave it to Hendry to find ways of making this team worse.

He just traded a reliever who spent half the year in AAA and makes over a million dollars for two players who were Top 30 prospects a year ago. I think Guzman can replace Wuertz

 

Because the manager inexplicably hated him while he didn't mind throwing crappy Howry out there every day.

 

Completely meaningless since they have sucked throughout their minor league careers and are not rated now.

It's pretty obvious that Lou hates pitchers that don't throw strikes. Whether you agree with it or not, I think it's pretty easy to see why Lou didn't like to use him. And part of the reason they're not ranked this year is because the A's system is so good. Both of them would have a good chance of making our top 30, and I can only imagine the reaction if Hendry traded two top 30 for an average reliever making over a million dollars with Wuertz's peripherals last year. People were up in arms enough over trading worthless Cedeno for Heilman.

[Mephistopheles]

if you can only keep guzman or wuertz, and trading either will result in getting junk back, don't you have to keep wuertz? i mean, what's the likelihood that guzman both stays healthy and is effective?

 

 

Two things.

 

1.) We shouldn't have been in this situation in the first place (ie don't trade Ceda for Gregg).

2.) You keep Guzman. Wuertz is replaceable, fairly easily. So is Guzman if we keep him in a relief role. But with our five spot in the rotation being a combination of Sean Marshall and Aaron Heilman coupled with the fact that we have no starting pitching prospects in our system worth drek it's not completely out of the realm of possibility for Angel Guzman to end up with the most starts of the three. I really hope Angel gets a fair shake at getting the five slot. Lord knows if he's healthy he's the best man for the job.

[SouthSideRyan]

Another dumb move by Hendry. What a terrible offseason. Leave it to Hendry to find ways of making this team worse.

He just traded a reliever who spent half the year in AAA and makes over a million dollars for two players who were Top 30 prospects a year ago. I think Guzman can replace Wuertz

 

Because the manager inexplicably hated him while he didn't mind throwing crappy Howry out there every day.

 

Completely meaningless since they have sucked throughout their minor league careers and are not rated now.

It's pretty obvious that Lou hates pitchers that don't throw strikes. Whether you agree with it or not, I think it's pretty easy to see why Lou didn't like to use him. And part of the reason they're not ranked this year is because the A's system is so good. Both of them would have a good chance of making our top 30, and I can only imagine the reaction if Hendry traded two top 30 for an average reliever making over a million dollars with Wuertz's peripherals last year. People were up in arms enough over trading worthless Cedeno for Heilman.

 

Being the 29th best prospect in a #1 system doesn't mean that much. And the As aren't a #1 system.

[CubinNY]

if you can only keep guzman or wuertz, and trading either will result in getting junk back, don't you have to keep wuertz? i mean, what's the likelihood that guzman both stays healthy and is effective?

 

 

Two things.

 

1.) We shouldn't have been in this situation in the first place (ie don't trade Ceda for Gregg).

2.) You keep Guzman. Wuertz is replaceable, fairly easily. So is Guzman if we keep him in a relief role. But with our five spot in the rotation being a combination of Sean Marshall and Aaron Heilman coupled with the fact that we have no starting pitching prospects in our system worth drek it's not completely out of the realm of possibility for Angel Guzman to end up with the most starts of the three. I really hope Angel gets a fair shake at getting the five slot. Lord knows if he's healthy he's the best man for the job.

I tend to agree, but I think Guz's days of starting are over.

[YearofDaCubs]

I would say that this team is noticeably better than last season, and I'm tired of people saying we're worse. How are we worse?? Because we replaced Wood with Gregg? Um no, not any worse. Because we went from DeRosa and Edmonds to Miles and Bradley? Nope, still better there. We went from Marquis to Heilman?? To me there's another upgrade. Getting Harden, Guzman, Gaudin, and Shark for a full year over guys like Howry, Eyre, and Fox. Hoffpauir over Ward. Platoon Fukudome and Reed instead of just Fukudome all year.

 

We didn't need to make any improvements this offseason, but we did, and it will make a big difference.

I'm tired of people saying that we have improved this offseason. How the heck do you know Heilman is going to be better than Marquis when Heilman has minimal starts in the majors and when he did start he sucked? We're going from DeRosa to Fontenot and Miles and although Fontenot was good last year in minimal at bats I seriously question if he is able to have numbers as good as last year as a starter. The CF position last year was highly productive and I doubt we can match that production from Fukudome and Johnson. Gregg is not better than Wood, period. You really think you will get a full year out of Harden when it's confirmed he has a tear on his already delicate shoulder? Guzman although has a live arm really hasn't done much in the majors yet. As it stands right now Shark won't even be on the 25man roster when the season starts. The only move that we made this offseason that I liked is signing Bradley but as good as he is when he's healthy and playing getting rid off DeRosa basically offsets the upgrade offensively. Instead of making a couple of tweaks to the roster Hendry decided it was a better idea to get rid of some nice pieces and replace them with mediocre ones instead. We go into the season with some serious question marks. To say we improved this offseason is really not looking at the situation realistically.

[JonnyRed]

I think Hendry is just making it a point to trade away all the players that NSBB overrates. Pie, Cedeno, Hill and Wuertz. Anyone else left?

Like Wood and DeRosa? Hendry has done a terrible job this offseason. He's single handily destroying this roster.

 

Boy, I'm sure glad we still have those 6 all-stars on the roster. We could be in trouble otherwise.