The Official Sammy! Update Thread ©

[papabear58]

Sammy Sosa in his prime was the most enjoyable and exciting baseball player I have ever seen. I will never forget the joy he brought into my life, despite the disappointment that was the final year/2 years of his Cubs career.

 

He is a 1st ballot Hall of Famer and rightfully so.

 

This steroids thing is so stupid. People pretend that if, IF, Sammy was roided up, he was the only one doing it. If, IF, he was, it wasn't illegal when he was doing it, and he certainly wasn't the only one doing it. People so easily forget that the steroids ban was followed by a whole lot of pitchers losing velocity on their fastballs, not, as the 'experts' predicted, a decline in HR's hit.

 

But the number of homeruns has not spiked to a huge account either. That means that both sides could be in equalibrilum here as well.

 

I don't know if Sosa was juicing, but while I deplore that type of behavior, I can't say he shouldn't be in the HOF. Roids might increase your ability to put more drive into the ball, but you still have to have bat speed and vision, and many other things that Steroids can't effect. I'm totally mixed when it comes to an asterisk or not next to the record.... part of me says yes, and part of me says no.

[Larry Horse]

Yah, let it go already guys! Why are we talking about the greatest offensive player in chicago cubs history making a comeback!

 

Ernie Banks is making a comeback? WHER!?

 

Banks: .274/.330/.500 (avg/obp/slg)

Sammy: .274/.345/.537 ( " " )

 

Banks: 512 HR

Sammy: 589 HR

 

Sosa edges Banks..not by much..but he does.

 

Sosa: Proven cheater

Banks : Not

 

Don't even compare the two.

 

Ridiculous

[rocket]

blahblahblah, sosa was a better hitter than ernie. deal with it.

[Andy]

Sammy 0-5 tonight :evil:

[USSoccer]

Yah, let it go already guys! Why are we talking about the greatest offensive player in chicago cubs history making a comeback!

 

Ernie Banks is making a comeback? WHER!?

 

Banks: .274/.330/.500 (avg/obp/slg)

Sammy: .274/.345/.537 ( " " )

 

Banks: 512 HR

Sammy: 589 HR

 

Sosa edges Banks..not by much..but he does.

 

Sosa: Proven cheater

Banks : Not

 

Don't even compare the two.

 

Ridiculous

 

Are you referring to the corked bat that doesn't help a hitter in any way?

[ConstableRabbit]

Yah, let it go already guys! Why are we talking about the greatest offensive player in chicago cubs history making a comeback!

 

Ernie Banks is making a comeback? WHER!?

 

Banks: .274/.330/.500 (avg/obp/slg)

Sammy: .274/.345/.537 ( " " )

 

Banks: 512 HR

Sammy: 589 HR

 

Sosa edges Banks..not by much..but he does.

 

Sosa: Proven cheater

Banks : Not

 

Don't even compare the two.

 

Ridiculous

 

He was caught using a corked bat once. The bats he had in the hall of fame were tested and were corkless. AND physics proves that corked bats really don't help performance. Did he cheat? Yes. But that doesn't make him a lesser player thank Banks.

 

Even if he's NOT better than Banks, why is it such a crime we're excited that the "second-best" offensive player in Cubs history, who was for many years a Chicago icon, is making a comeback?

 

We're in this threat to talk about Sammy's comeback, not your unfounded hatred for him. If you want to compare him to the other Cubs' greats, I suggest we make a new topic for that purpose.

[imb]

He just homered again.

 

Of course, going into the game, he had a pretty sweet .432 OPS.

[RynoRules]

blahblahblah, sosa was a better hitter than ernie. deal with it.

 

Except that the "blah blah blah" part can be translated to "Sammy achieved at least part of his success by cheating and Ernie did not."

 

But go on and keep your head in the sand if you like.

 

Sammy was a great player whose image is indelibly tarnished and methodology is very much in question, in my view.

[RynoRules]

We're in this threat to talk about Sammy's comeback, not your unfounded hatred for him. If you want to compare him to the other Cubs' greats, I suggest we make a new topic for that purpose.

 

Yeah, cause we never go off on related tangents around here...

[Roast]

"Sammy achieved at least part of his success by cheating and Ernie did not."

 

 

Prove it.

 

Also, GO SAMMY!

[RynoRules]

"Sammy achieved at least part of his success by cheating and Ernie did not."

 

 

Prove it.

 

Also, GO SAMMY!

 

Corks to start (I still supported him through that one, BTW).

 

And that "prove it" nonsense is no argument at all. It essentially responds to the argument by saying "That's what you think." It ignores substantial circumstantial evidence that points to him have used substances he shouldn't have. You and I both know what I am talking about, so I won't bother repeating all of it.

[Sosa21MVP]

Sammy is the man! 10 to go for 600! :D

[Sosa21MVP]

"Sammy achieved at least part of his success by cheating and Ernie did not."

 

 

Prove it.

 

Also, GO SAMMY!

 

Corks to start (I still supported him through that one, BTW).

 

And that "prove it" nonsense is no argument at all. It essentially responds to the argument by saying "That's what you think." It ignores substantial circumstantial evidence that points to him have used substances he shouldn't have. You and I both know what I am talking about, so I won't bother repeating all of it.

 

:roll:

 

I was going to write something but there is obviously no point.

[RynoRules]

"Sammy achieved at least part of his success by cheating and Ernie did not."

 

 

Prove it.

 

Also, GO SAMMY!

 

Corks to start (I still supported him through that one, BTW).

 

And that "prove it" nonsense is no argument at all. It essentially responds to the argument by saying "That's what you think." It ignores substantial circumstantial evidence that points to him have used substances he shouldn't have. You and I both know what I am talking about, so I won't bother repeating all of it.

 

:roll:

 

I was going to write something but there is obviously no point.

 

The good thing is that you aren't biased; I mean your user name reveals you to be highly objective.

 

Appreciate the eye roll by the way.

 

Look, I have much love for my heros too - look at my user name. And I loved Sammy intensely for a good many years - I was there for his 60th dong in 98' and cheered my head off.

 

But if I am going to be intellectually honest with myself I have to deal with the fact that there is evidence to indicate Sammy used performance enhancing substances. Can I show you a pic of him shooting up? Of course not. But I can show you:

 

- That he was substantially bigger prior to the Congressional hearings.

- That his performance and skills eroded incredibly quickly thereafter

- That he was incredibly smaller when he first came up with the Rangers and Sox.

- That he dodged and refused to meet head-on Rick Reilly's arrogant attempts at cornering him.

- That he all of a sudden couldn't understand english when Congress wanted to ask him questions about the issue.

- Etc., etc.

 

It doesn't make me happy to feel this way, but I can't ignore it either.

[Roast]

 

And that "prove it" nonsense is no argument at all.

 

.......

 

Its a good thing the American justice system isn't based around nonsense like that.

[ConstableRabbit]

"Sammy achieved at least part of his success by cheating and Ernie did not."

 

 

Prove it.

 

Also, GO SAMMY!

 

Corks to start (I still supported him through that one, BTW).

 

And that "prove it" nonsense is no argument at all. It essentially responds to the argument by saying "That's what you think." It ignores substantial circumstantial evidence that points to him have used substances he shouldn't have. You and I both know what I am talking about, so I won't bother repeating all of it.

 

:roll:

 

I was going to write something but there is obviously no point.

 

The good thing is that you aren't biased; I mean your user name reveals you to be highly objective.

 

Appreciate the eye roll by the way.

 

Look, I have much love for my heros too - look at my user name. And I loved Sammy intensely for a good many years - I was there for his 60th dong in 98' and cheered my head off.

 

But if I am going to be intellectually honest with myself I have to deal with the fact that there is evidence to indicate Sammy used performance enhancing substances. Can I show you a pic of him shooting up? Of course not. But I can show you:

 

- That he was substantially bigger prior to the Congressional hearings.

- That his performance and skills eroded incredibly quickly thereafter

- That he was incredibly smaller when he first came up with the Rangers and Sox.

- That he dodged and refused to meet head-on Rick Reilly's arrogant attempts at cornering him.

- That he all of a sudden couldn't understand english when Congress wanted to ask him questions about the issue.

- Etc., etc.

 

It doesn't make me happy to feel this way, but I can't ignore it either.

 

All of the things you mention are very circumstancial as evidence and there are reasons why they could have occurred other than steriod use.

 

-For example, many players get bigger as they progress in their careers

-Sammy's speaks English, but may not have felt 100% comfortable speaking under oath in case of a language slip up. I mean, the guy can get something across, but his grammar is nowhere near stellar and I'm sure his vocab could use some help esp in a Congressional hearing. Besides, it's not like when you speak through an interpreter you can just lie or something. You still have to answer the questions.

-His performance drop could also be tied to his beaning incident, whereafter Sosa backed way off of the plate. He also had some serious toe problems which affect balance dramatically.

 

Of all of the guys who are and have been targeted for steriod usage, Sosa really has the least on him. He didn't lie to Congress, he didn't plead the 5th to dodge questions, he doesn't have witnesses stating that they saw him use or injected him with steroids, he never tested negative, he never was found in posession of steriods, etc. etc.

 

In everything else, we assume innocence and yet in the case of steriod abuse, we're choosing to assume guilt. Show me the same evidence that we have against guys like Canseco (admitted), Palmiero (failed test), Bonds (witnesses, BALCO), Giambi (admitted, BALCO), McGwire (witnesses, plead 5th), Sheffield (BALCO, admitted he used it "unknowingly"), etc etc and I'll buy into Sosa as a juicer, but until we have any such thing, he's just a homerun hitter who thrived in the late 90s.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

 

All of the things you mention are very circumstancial as evidence and there are reasons why they could have occurred other than steriod use.

 

-For example, many players get bigger as they progress in their careers

-Sammy's speaks English, but may not have felt 100% comfortable speaking under oath in case of a language slip up. I mean, the guy can get something across, but his grammar is nowhere near stellar and I'm sure his vocab could use some help esp in a Congressional hearing. Besides, it's not like when you speak through an interpreter you can just lie or something. You still have to answer the questions.

-His performance drop could also be tied to his beaning incident, whereafter Sosa backed way off of the plate. He also had some serious toe problems which affect balance dramatically.

 

Of all of the guys who are and have been targeted for steriod usage, Sosa really has the least on him. He didn't lie to Congress, he didn't plead the 5th to dodge questions, he doesn't have witnesses stating that they saw him use or injected him with steroids, he never tested negative, he never was found in posession of steriods, etc. etc.

 

In everything else, we assume innocence and yet in the case of steriod abuse, we're choosing to assume guilt. Show me the same evidence that we have against guys like Canseco (admitted), Palmiero (failed test), Bonds (witnesses, BALCO), Giambi (admitted, BALCO), McGwire (witnesses, plead 5th), Sheffield (BALCO, admitted he used it "unknowingly"), etc etc and I'll buy into Sosa as a juicer, but until we have any such thing, he's just a homerun hitter who thrived in the late 90s.

 

=D> =D> =D>

[Chris]

 

All of the things you mention are very circumstancial as evidence and there are reasons why they could have occurred other than steriod use.

 

-For example, many players get bigger as they progress in their careers

-Sammy's speaks English, but may not have felt 100% comfortable speaking under oath in case of a language slip up. I mean, the guy can get something across, but his grammar is nowhere near stellar and I'm sure his vocab could use some help esp in a Congressional hearing. Besides, it's not like when you speak through an interpreter you can just lie or something. You still have to answer the questions.

-His performance drop could also be tied to his beaning incident, whereafter Sosa backed way off of the plate. He also had some serious toe problems which affect balance dramatically.

 

Of all of the guys who are and have been targeted for steriod usage, Sosa really has the least on him. He didn't lie to Congress, he didn't plead the 5th to dodge questions, he doesn't have witnesses stating that they saw him use or injected him with steroids, he never tested negative, he never was found in posession of steriods, etc. etc.

 

In everything else, we assume innocence and yet in the case of steriod abuse, we're choosing to assume guilt. Show me the same evidence that we have against guys like Canseco (admitted), Palmiero (failed test), Bonds (witnesses, BALCO), Giambi (admitted, BALCO), McGwire (witnesses, plead 5th), Sheffield (BALCO, admitted he used it "unknowingly"), etc etc and I'll buy into Sosa as a juicer, but until we have any such thing, he's just a homerun hitter who thrived in the late 90s.

 

=D> =D> =D>

 

co-sign

[Illini Iceman]

 

All of the things you mention are very circumstancial as evidence and there are reasons why they could have occurred other than steriod use.

 

-For example, many players get bigger as they progress in their careers

-Sammy's speaks English, but may not have felt 100% comfortable speaking under oath in case of a language slip up. I mean, the guy can get something across, but his grammar is nowhere near stellar and I'm sure his vocab could use some help esp in a Congressional hearing. Besides, it's not like when you speak through an interpreter you can just lie or something. You still have to answer the questions.

-His performance drop could also be tied to his beaning incident, whereafter Sosa backed way off of the plate. He also had some serious toe problems which affect balance dramatically.

 

Of all of the guys who are and have been targeted for steriod usage, Sosa really has the least on him. He didn't lie to Congress, he didn't plead the 5th to dodge questions, he doesn't have witnesses stating that they saw him use or injected him with steroids, he never tested negative, he never was found in posession of steriods, etc. etc.

 

In everything else, we assume innocence and yet in the case of steriod abuse, we're choosing to assume guilt. Show me the same evidence that we have against guys like Canseco (admitted), Palmiero (failed test), Bonds (witnesses, BALCO), Giambi (admitted, BALCO), McGwire (witnesses, plead 5th), Sheffield (BALCO, admitted he used it "unknowingly"), etc etc and I'll buy into Sosa as a juicer, but until we have any such thing, he's just a homerun hitter who thrived in the late 90s.

 

=D> =D> =D>

 

co-sign

 

My gut tells me that something fishy was going on with Sosa, but the fact that this much time has passed without even one person coming forward with any kind of dirt on him is pretty compelling. Either he was clean and a victim of really unfortunate circumstances (so many other players at the same time cheating) or if he was guilty he had some exceptionally loyal people surrounding him.

[Andy]

I've always maintained that Sammy, let's be honest, is not all that intelligent. If anyone was gonna get caught in my view, it would've been him. The fact that not even one single person has any kind of hard evidence against him is a very loud indicator in my opinion.

[CDBears1259]

All of the things you mention are very circumstancial as evidence and there are reasons why they could have occurred other than steriod use.

 

-For example, many players get bigger as they progress in their careers

-Sammy's speaks English, but may not have felt 100% comfortable speaking under oath in case of a language slip up. I mean, the guy can get something across, but his grammar is nowhere near stellar and I'm sure his vocab could use some help esp in a Congressional hearing. Besides, it's not like when you speak through an interpreter you can just lie or something. You still have to answer the questions.

-His performance drop could also be tied to his beaning incident, whereafter Sosa backed way off of the plate. He also had some serious toe problems which affect balance dramatically.

 

Of all of the guys who are and have been targeted for steriod usage, Sosa really has the least on him. He didn't lie to Congress, he didn't plead the 5th to dodge questions, he doesn't have witnesses stating that they saw him use or injected him with steroids, he never tested negative, he never was found in posession of steriods, etc. etc.

 

In everything else, we assume innocence and yet in the case of steriod abuse, we're choosing to assume guilt. Show me the same evidence that we have against guys like Canseco (admitted), Palmiero (failed test), Bonds (witnesses, BALCO), Giambi (admitted, BALCO), McGwire (witnesses, plead 5th), Sheffield (BALCO, admitted he used it "unknowingly"), etc etc and I'll buy into Sosa as a juicer, but until we have any such thing, he's just a homerun hitter who thrived in the late 90s.

Thanks for summing my thoughts up to a "T". Beyond that, let me know when taking steroids (in regards to baseball only) leads to improved hand-eye coordination. When that happens then I'll get my drawers in a twist. Until that time the only thing it seems to do for a baseball player is prolong the inevitable. Yes, it is technically cheating, but does it enhance actual performance (at least as it pertains to hitters)? Doubtful. Pitchers may be another story entirely, but given that most of the presumed guitly are hitters, even that seems unlikely.

[SouthSideRyan]

[ Either he was clean and a victim of really unfortunate circumstances (so many other players at the same time cheating) or if he was guilty he had some exceptionally loyal people surrounding him.

 

I'm gonna say no on that one. There were enough guys around him his whole Cubs career that hated his guts.

[CubmanPi]

Sammy update:

 

S Sosa - 10G, 7/40, 2 HR 7 RBI, 1/8 BB/K, 3R, .175/.195/.325

[seanimal]

All of the things you mention are very circumstancial as evidence and there are reasons why they could have occurred other than steriod use.

 

-For example, many players get bigger as they progress in their careers

-Sammy's speaks English, but may not have felt 100% comfortable speaking under oath in case of a language slip up. I mean, the guy can get something across, but his grammar is nowhere near stellar and I'm sure his vocab could use some help esp in a Congressional hearing. Besides, it's not like when you speak through an interpreter you can just lie or something. You still have to answer the questions.

-His performance drop could also be tied to his beaning incident, whereafter Sosa backed way off of the plate. He also had some serious toe problems which affect balance dramatically.

 

Of all of the guys who are and have been targeted for steriod usage, Sosa really has the least on him. He didn't lie to Congress, he didn't plead the 5th to dodge questions, he doesn't have witnesses stating that they saw him use or injected him with steroids, he never tested negative, he never was found in posession of steriods, etc. etc.

 

In everything else, we assume innocence and yet in the case of steriod abuse, we're choosing to assume guilt. Show me the same evidence that we have against guys like Canseco (admitted), Palmiero (failed test), Bonds (witnesses, BALCO), Giambi (admitted, BALCO), McGwire (witnesses, plead 5th), Sheffield (BALCO, admitted he used it "unknowingly"), etc etc and I'll buy into Sosa as a juicer, but until we have any such thing, he's just a homerun hitter who thrived in the late 90s.

 

I think he was the most dangerous hitter in the league for about 4 years. I could be wrong though. Definately up there.

[The Voice of Reason]

Sammy update:

 

S Sosa - 10G, 7/40, 2 HR 7 RBI, 1/8 BB/K, 3R, .175/.195/.325

 

His production has sharply decreased from his Cubs days. Although admittedly it is still a small sample size, if he keeps this pace up, he'll be gone by the All-star break. Texeira needs better protection than that.