Bears vs Vikings on MNF

[WrigleyField 22]

4 minutes ago, Have a seat, Neifi said:

 

Again, I'm not a Fields hater or anything, and this entire organization is a complete tire fire such that I totally sympathize with criticisms of the coaches and scheme he's had to deal with, but if you polled all 32 NFL GMs I'd love to know how many would keep Fields (and pay him in a year) instead of taking Williams or Maye at #1.    

I bet you could get a decent GM consensus that the Bear's should move on AND that one of a few teams (Atl, for one) should be the ones to jump on him for a reasonable trade price.

[raw]

1 minute ago, WrigleyField 22 said:

They would have caught them sleeping on the sixth I bet.

In youth football, I would call the same play until they stopped it. In the NFL, sometimes you gotta keep calling the play until it works.

[Have a seat, Neifi]

Quote

Just now, WrigleyField 22 said:

I bet you could get a decent GM consensus that the Bear's should move on AND that one of a few teams (Atl, for one) should be the ones to jump on him for a reasonable trade price.

Yea, agree.  Today's Ringer NFL podcast had a decent discussion of Fields and his potential trade value along the same lines.  

[WrigleyField 22]

Just now, raw said:

In youth football, I would call the same play until they stopped it. In the NFL, sometimes you gotta keep calling the play until it works.

Man I just miss the simplicity of youth football scheming. 

 

My favorite was my dad's plan to rotate in the B OL (because there was a snap minimum) and put them all in as a unit with me and two other good first unit OL as a T formation backs to do the blocking for the other one.  It was a grind it out plan for like the 12 minimum snaps but he also split out the fastest guy wide and if he felt the D was cheating, we pulled the QB boot with three man protection and a one man route concept deep lol.  Worked to perfection exactly once.

[raw]

1 minute ago, Have a seat, Neifi said:

I definitely 100% think the screen passes are the coaches telling the world they don't think Fields can read the field or process what he's seeing quickly enough (a critique I think I largely agree with), but yea at least mix it up a little.

The thing about quick WR screens, is that they don't serve the purpose intended by screening vs the blitz. You're supposed to invite the pass rush and use their pressure against them by hitting them in the soft spots created by blitzing defenders who would normally be in a certain area. With the quick screen, the defense can just shift it's all out pressure to getting to the outside instead of to the passer.

The Bears were just having the blocking receivers slow release (because they can't block before the catch), and the guy getting the ball just turn to the QB. The better design would be to either fake the WRs running off the line like they are running a route, and/or have the guy getting the ball to release and then come back to the ball. That way, you at least get DBs backing off, because on blitzes, DBs aren't going to be pressing on the line for fear of a quick go behind them.

[raw]

4 minutes ago, WrigleyField 22 said:

Man I just miss the simplicity of youth football scheming. 

 

My favorite was my dad's plan to rotate in the B OL (because there was a snap minimum) and put them all in as a unit with me and two other good first unit OL as a T formation backs to do the blocking for the other one.  It was a grind it out plan for like the 12 minimum snaps but he also split out the fastest guy wide and if he felt the D was cheating, we pulled the QB boot with three man protection and a one man route concept deep lol.  Worked to perfection exactly once.

We had weight limits for positions so couldn't put linemen in the backfield, unless they were under weight. But my favorite was:

FB dive, FB dive, fake FB dive to QB boot

But you'd be amazed how much 9 year olds don't adjust to unbalanced OLs (or maybe not). 

[WrigleyField 22]

5 minutes ago, raw said:

We had weight limits for positions so couldn't put linemen in the backfield, unless they were under weight. But my favorite was:

FB dive, FB dive, fake FB dive to QB boot

But you'd be amazed how much 9 year olds don't adjust to unbalanced OLs (or maybe not). 

Yea I remember other leagues that had position specific limits (usually was the catholic school leagues), but no limit on the upper end. We just had a upper limit and if you were over that you had to get bumped up a level or if you were too young to get bumped up you couldn't play in the league at all (we were Pop Warner affiliate).  

[UMFan83]

43 minutes ago, Have a seat, Neifi said:

I think I'm just at the point where, sure, Fields has his moments, probably still has some upside, and eventually could become a more dynamic Ryan Tannehill or "prime" Colin Kaepernick if he has the right scheme and is able to stay healthy.  But I think we've seen enough to know he's not Hurts or Allen, and his rookie-scale contract is coming to an end such that he's about to get expensive no matter what.    

It is increasingly looking like the Bears will have the #1 overall pick in a draft with arguably 2 potential franchise QBs.  That is an opportunity that doesn't come around often and, IMHO, Fields has not shown anything close to enough to justify passing on that opportunity--particularly with the fifth-year option decision only a year away. 

Again, I'm not a Fields hater or anything, and this entire organization is a complete tire fire such that I totally sympathize with criticisms of the coaches and scheme he's had to deal with, but if you polled all 32 NFL GMs I'd love to know how many would keep Fields (and pay him in a year) instead of taking Williams or Maye at #1.    

Like  I said a few weeks ago, I'd consider it a major disaster if we had the number 1 pick 2 years in a row and came out of it without either 1) Fields clearly proving to be the franchise guy or 2) a new potential franchise QB.  At this point after year 3 and the rookie contract ending soon you cannot move forward with Fields if there is still this amount of uncertainty about his potential.  The Bears almost never pick in the top 3 and the hope is that they won't be picking in the top 3 anytime soon.  The ship is likely sailing for any shot to have a legit franchise QB for the next several years if you don't pick one this year.  Sure maybe they take Williams or Maye and they don't turn out to be good...I'll take that risk over the possibility that one or both of them join Stroud as franchise QBs that were picked in the last 2 drafts when the Bears had the 1st pick both years.

If the Bears were sitting somewhere around the middle of the 1st round, I'd probably stick with Fields for another year rather than draft a QB mid-first round or trade up.  But we won't be picking in the middle of the 1st so to me that has to change the calculation.

Edited November 28, 2023 by UMFan83

[raw]

9 minutes ago, WrigleyField 22 said:

Yea I remember other leagues that had position specific limits (usually was the catholic school leagues), but no limit on the upper end. We just had a upper limit and if you were over that you had to get bumped up a level or if you were too young to get bumped up you couldn't play in the league at all (we were Pop Warner affiliate).  

Yeah, we actually started in 1 league like that when my son was 1st/2nd grade. Teams were (age by Oct 1): 5-8, 9-10, 11-12. The problem with that is some 12 year olds were in 7th grade, so middle school teams were hurting for numbers as any kid that has played in the youth league since 6 is going to want to finish out there vs. Jr high. So we moved to a league that went by grade K-2, 3-4, 5-6. 

Age league had weight limits for playing at all, so you could theoretically get a big 7 year old forced to play 9-10 which is insane. LOL. The other league only had weight limits for who can play skill positions, think it was like 80lbs for little guys, 100 for middle, 120 for big kids. I always thought that was kinda dumb because you could put a really athletic 150lb kid at safety and have him come downhill and destroy people. Plus, you could run back fumbles and INTs on defense regardless of size. 

[BigSlick]

48 minutes ago, raw said:

The thing about quick WR screens, is that they don't serve the purpose intended by screening vs the blitz. You're supposed to invite the pass rush and use their pressure against them by hitting them in the soft spots created by blitzing defenders who would normally be in a certain area. With the quick screen, the defense can just shift it's all out pressure to getting to the outside instead of to the passer.

The Bears were just having the blocking receivers slow release (because they can't block before the catch), and the guy getting the ball just turn to the QB. The better design would be to either fake the WRs running off the line like they are running a route, and/or have the guy getting the ball to release and then come back to the ball. That way, you at least get DBs backing off, because on blitzes, DBs aren't going to be pressing on the line for fear of a quick go behind them.

Speaking of, I'm surprised there were no running back screens in the middle of the field - the classic "let em through, run where they ain't" style blitz beater. 

Of course, Justin and the offensive line aren't always amazing at executing those plays, and they can get horribly blown up, or god forbid, intercepted by defensive linemen. 

[BigSlick]

1 hour ago, jersey cubs fan said:

I think the most likely reason that Getsy called such a bad game is two fold. 
 

1) He took it personally when Fields (stupidly) called out coaching early in the year and has not liked Fields having big games in primetime after he seeded the ProBagent nonsense against LA. 
2) they knew they could win a game against an actually bad NFL QB whose ride turned into a pumpkin last week.

So they called a game that would give Fields no chance for glory through the air, but enough of a chance to score some points and maybe get Fields hurt on designed runs. I think Getsy would like nothing more than win in spite of Fields. It worked on Kyle and it would work on other non thinkers. 

 

I really can't see a coach sabotaging their QB or team this dramatically except in extraordinarily rare circumstances involving the most depraved sociopathic coaches (who do exist). It's simply way too detrimental to their own career. Anyone caught doing this would never work again in the NFL. 

2) is more believable than 1) to me, and I could even see Eberflus endorsing a gameplan like that. But no, I don't think any coach ever calls plays in order to see their players fail or get injured. 

[jersey cubs fan]

9 minutes ago, BigSlick said:

I really can't see a coach sabotaging their QB or team this dramatically except in extraordinarily rare circumstances involving the most depraved sociopathic coaches (who do exist).

His GM did it one year before. Why wouldn’t a young OC who’s seen that very thing rewarded do it himself?
 

and they’re all depraved sociopaths, every last one of them

[Outshined_One]

My most recent weirdass dream draft scenario that I put together while bored in the office today would be for the Bears to trade back from one of their first round picks, nab an early second rounder, take MHJr and either Latu or Fashanu with their first two picks, and then trade back up into the mid 20s to take McCarthy or Nix if either falls to that range.

It's foolproof, I tells ya.

[Tryptamine]

2 minutes ago, Outshined_One said:

My most recent weirdass dream draft scenario that I put together while bored in the office today would be for the Bears to trade back from one of their first round picks, nab an early second rounder, take MHJr and either Latu or Fashanu with their first two picks, and then trade back up into the mid 20s to take McCarthy or Nix if either falls to that range.

It's foolproof, I tells ya.

Nix wont be there, but you'd have a shot at Penix around there or you could probably get 1 of McCarthy, Daniels or Sanders in the 2nd.

[minnesotacubsfan]

NO

 

DRAFT THE BEST QB AT no 1

 

 

[minnesotacubsfan]

If I have to draft a qb, I’d probably go Caleb (if you’re going to do it, shoot for the horsefeathers moon) and then best playmaker at the later 1st pick. The oline is decent, young and you could nab someone in the 2nd or 3rd for the future. 
 

but I feel Poles (who’s shown a propensity to trade down) might well trade out of #1, keepJF and stack up more first rd picks for the future

Edited November 29, 2023 by minnesotacubsfan

[WrigleyField 22]

7 minutes ago, minnesotacubsfan said:

 

but I feel Poles (who’s shown a propensity to trade down) might well trade out of #1, keepJF and stack up more first rd picks for the future

I genuinely still like Fields, but that would be so dumb.

[minnesotacubsfan]

5 minutes ago, WrigleyField 22 said:

I genuinely still like Fields, but that would be so dumb.

I didn’t say Poles was bright. I feel like the book is still out on him

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by minnesotacubsfan

[BigbadB]

23 hours ago, raw said:

Demarcus Walker

According to someone who saw the entire video, Walker was getting his phone ready to record the after game rah rah pep talk.

 

[gflore34]

15 hours ago, jersey cubs fan said:

His GM did it one year before. Why wouldn’t a young OC who’s seen that very thing rewarded do it himself?
 

and they’re all depraved sociopaths, every last one of them

How would actively trying to keep you're QB from success be rewarded?  Doesn't QB success go hand-in-hand with winning?  In fact, wouldn't Fields improving shine a positive light on Getsy?

[NorthsideAvenger]

14 hours ago, WrigleyField 22 said:

I genuinely still like Fields, but that would be so dumb.

You know what else would be stupid? If the GM takes a QB he is not enamored with just to appease a fan base who is starving for a star QB. I want Poles to draft Williams/Maye because he wants to, not because he has to.

[WrigleyField 22]

6 minutes ago, NorthsideAvenger said:

You know what else would be stupid? If the GM takes a QB he is not enamored with just to appease a fan base who is starving for a star QB. I want Poles to draft Williams/Maye because he wants to, not because he has to.

We can work ourselves into a pretzel to create a scenario where these guys aren't elite QB prospects, but we have every reason to believe they are widely seen as such and imaging Poles might go against the grain, why?

[minnesotacubsfan]

27 minutes ago, WrigleyField 22 said:

We can work ourselves into a pretzel to create a scenario where these guys aren't elite QB prospects, but we have every reason to believe they are widely seen as such and imaging Poles might go against the grain, why?

I dont claim to read his mind, but I could see Poles looking at it like its his 3rd year of the rebuild and wanting to fill out the team with the picks at other positions. He started by flushing out the roster in year 1, ended year 2 well under the salary threshold, and maybe feels that this is just the natural progression in the team's development. And, he might actually really like JF despite being presented with the 1st opportunity to draft the best QB in the draft. I dont know that it would be the right choice, but can see where he might make that decision. Poles doesnt seem to get caught up in "what he should do"-isms, for better or worse

 

 

[raw]

One thing is that Justin Fields is very well liked in the building and in the lockerroom. The org. raved about him all summer and there's a very real scenario where they see the coaching staff as at fault for the failure of the last 2 years. Especially Getsy, considering the 21 screen passes, which Poles looked visibly annoyed with on Monday Night and the media is making fun of. Throw in the team seemingly playing to not lose games, lack of discipline, the assistant issues this year, and the theory that Flus wasn't Poles' first choice (if at all) and I can see the Bears giving Fields another look next year.

But Fields still has huge flaws that he hasn't shown he can correct. And it's a big gamble to assume he can correct them with a 3rd coach in 4 years, while guaranteeing him the 5th year option, while having a UDFA come in and win games in the same offense, and while passing up every QB prospect in the draft at its disposal for the 2nd year in a row.

[WrigleyField 22]

1 hour ago, minnesotacubsfan said:

I dont claim to read his mind, but I could see Poles looking at it like its his 3rd year of the rebuild and wanting to fill out the team with the picks at other positions. He started by flushing out the roster in year 1, ended year 2 well under the salary threshold, and maybe feels that this is just the natural progression in the team's development. And, he might actually really like JF despite being presented with the 1st opportunity to draft the best QB in the draft. I dont know that it would be the right choice, but can see where he might make that decision. Poles doesnt seem to get caught up in "what he should do"-isms, for better or worse

 

 

If Poles believes Williams and Maye are elite QB prospects and passes on them due some flowery view of the natural progression of the team (whatever the horsefeathers people want to think that means) , fire him into the sun.  Fields just hasn't shown enough to pass up that opportunity.  He's not a bad QB, but the clock has struck midnight.  Maybe his biggest flaws can still be improved.  And if Carolina plays the pick into slot 3 we get to have the fun decision of MHJ and then a choose between Fields + more help or QB3.  But if the season ended today, I don't see how they don't move on.