Bears vs Vikings on MNF

[gflore34]

13 minutes ago, Hairyducked Idiot said:

My stance for two years has been I mostly like the way he builds but hate what he's building toward.

Unless he comes through with the right QB pick in the draft next year, we are getting yet another iteration of trying to relive the Halas dream with rough and tough guys dragging games down into the mud and trying to win 12-10 every week.

 

 

If the Bears draft position remains the same what about the possibility of dealing 1OA to say, the Cardinals, swapping first rounders and getting more 2024/2025 picks.  Then taking MHJ at 2 along with drafting Bo Nix at 4?

[raw]

1 hour ago, BigbadB said:

We need to see if Fields can be a pocket passer who can go through his reads and hit his open targets consistently and move this offense and score points. Minnesota knows he doesn't do well with blitzes, and they exploited him twice now. Every other team now knows what to do when they face him. 

He's shown he can do that....when protected, where he at least can wait for targets to get open enough for him.

The problem with every other team blitzing Fields is that every other team isn't a blitzing team. So you get them playing out of character and away from their own team strengths. So a team with half ass blitzes will get beat, even by Fields. 

And it should be noted that NO QB does well under pressure. Some do well vs the blitz, mostly due to getting rid of it before the pressure gets there. But none do well vs actual pressure. So if it's a good blitz, well designed/well executed/well disguised, there's not any QB that's going to be great against that. Fields is definitely worse than most, but IDK if it's a career killer. Honestly, he had several opportunities with the guys getting up the field where he could have just taken off up the middle. And they were sending 6 guys, so there was no spy behind them most of the time. The middle was open. He learns that, either he never has to throw vs the blitz or teams will stop blitzing him.

[Tryptamine]

39 minutes ago, gflore34 said:

If the Bears draft position remains the same what about the possibility of dealing 1OA to say, the Cardinals, swapping first rounders and getting more 2024/2025 picks.  Then taking MHJ at 2 along with drafting Bo Nix at 4?

I'm not sure I'm comfortable grabbing Nix at 4. If the Bears are picking in the 7-10 range sure, but at 4 there is some absolute top tier talent still available that I'd rather have then grab what is currently the 3rd rated QB in this draft. 

[Derwood]

Don’t know if it’s been mentioned, but before that 4th quarter throw to Moore that set up the FG, neither QB threw a pass past the sticks all game. 

[raw]

21 minutes ago, Derwood said:

Don’t know if it’s been mentioned, but before that 4th quarter throw to Moore that set up the FG, neither QB threw a pass past the sticks all game. 

I didn't know that.....but I knew that. Like if I thought about it, I could have guessed that was the only throw beyond the sticks. 

[Hairyducked Idiot]

 

1 hour ago, gflore34 said:

If the Bears draft position remains the same what about the possibility of dealing 1OA to say, the Cardinals, swapping first rounders and getting more 2024/2025 picks.  Then taking MHJ at 2 along with drafting Bo Nix at 4?

I won't like riot in the streets if they do something like that, but I think it's too clever by half.

Caleb Williams is the best prospect we are going to see for a couple years at the most important position in the sport (or any other major north American sport).

If the Carolina pick is 1OA, just take him 

[Hairyducked Idiot]

26 minutes ago, Derwood said:

Don’t know if it’s been mentioned, but before that 4th quarter throw to Moore that set up the FG, neither QB threw a pass past the sticks all game. 

I'm fairly certain that's not true. Off the top of my head, there was the hospital ball overthrow to Mooney on an early third down.  There's no way that wasn't beyond the sticks, right?

 

And Dobbs had the bomb that was almost brought down but touched dirt as the players were rolling through.

 

Or does it just means completed?

Edited November 28, 2023 by Hairyducked Idiot

[jersey cubs fan]

4 minutes ago, raw said:

I didn't know that.....but I knew that. Like if I thought about it, I could have guessed that was the only throw beyond the sticks. 

Maybe the only completion, but they threw past the sticks on multiple occasions 

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Even completed it's not true:

 

25 seconds in and I've already seen fields hit one past the sticks 

 

[WrigleyField 22]

3 minutes ago, Hairyducked Idiot said:

I'm fairly certain that's not true. Off the top of my head, there was the hospital ball overthrow to Mooney on an early third down.  There's no way that wasn't beyond the sticks, right?

 

And Dobbs had the bomb that was almost brought down but touched dirt as the players were rolling through.

 

Or does it just means completed?

Must mean completion.  

[We Got The Whole 9]

I'm fairly sure we will end up picking in the 6-10 range now. Too many 4 win teams and we're gonna beat the Cardinals I think. This was a lamentable win.

[WrigleyField 22]

29 minutes ago, Hairyducked Idiot said:

Even completed it's not true:

 

25 seconds in and I've already seen fields hit one past the sticks 

 

Maybe some lazy read of ten yard + charted throws and not realizing "the sticks" can include things like down+3 to go.

 

So probably was trying to get at a point about adot, which adot already gives you.  Need some super nerdy next Gen tracking Stat that combines adot, openness, and down+distance to give a comprehensive view of adot in context of situation.

[WrigleyField 22]

29 minutes ago, We Got The Whole 9 said:

I'm fairly sure we will end up picking in the 6-10 range now. Too many 4 win teams and we're gonna beat the Cardinals I think. This was a lamentable win.

I'm only gonna care about wins if it saves Flus.  And if any number of wins makes the difference, not sure Warren and/or Poles are the guys anyways and none of it matters for a long while.

 

So go ahead and win Bears. It will be a good test on if you're worth my time for the next decade.

Edited November 28, 2023 by WrigleyField 22

[CubColtPacer]

1 hour ago, Derwood said:

Don’t know if it’s been mentioned, but before that 4th quarter throw to Moore that set up the FG, neither QB threw a pass past the sticks all game. 

People have mentioned others, but the TD pass to Hockenson was another play that make this stat wrong.

[Derwood]

54 minutes ago, jersey cubs fan said:

Maybe the only completion, but they threw past the sticks on multiple occasions 

It is entirely possible that a) I misheard the stat and/or b) the radio personality who quoted it was full of crap

[raw]

1 hour ago, jersey cubs fan said:

Maybe the only completion, but they threw past the sticks on multiple occasions 

Yeah, I meant completion. 

[minnesotacubsfan]

1 hour ago, Tryptamine said:

I'm not sure I'm comfortable grabbing Nix at 4. If the Bears are picking in the 7-10 range sure, but at 4 there is some absolute top tier talent still available that I'd rather have then grab what is currently the 3rd rated QB in this draft. 

Nix at 4 would be a terrible over reach, if you’re going to draft a qb in the first, take the best one at 1 and move on

[CubinNY]

20 minutes ago, Derwood said:

It is entirely possible that a) I misheard the stat and/or b) the radio personality who quoted it was full of crap

or all the above. 

[raw]

So, I watched a few things. And I think we'll always have the "chicken or the egg" conversation w/ Fields/Getsy. Like there are plays where the Vikings are clearly showing they are blitzing. On the scrambles early, there were no hot routes. There are plays where Fields is getting pressure, but none of the WRs are turned around yet. There are plays where Fields is getting pressure, and there are quicker/shorter routes, but the DBs are jumping the routes and nowhere to throw. 

IDK if Fields isn't checking to different plays or if Fields isn't allowed to check certain plays. We've seen him make checks before (usually run/pass, not pass to different pass). My guess is based on the WRs not having any sight adjustments or options with their routes, that Fields is not allowed to change things (because if he was, WRs would be able to as well). Obviously, part of that is Getsy having a rigid scheme. But part of it is also probably due to Fields' limitations in identifying blitz and checking into different looks. But the Vikings weren't even disguising things. They were showing blitz and if anything, they were disguising when they were NOT blitzing. There's some easy checks to assume blitz if you see blitz, Bears made no adjustments. 

Now Kyle will say the screens are the only things Fields can do. But Getsy's only history of adjusting to the blitz is having a 1st ballot HOF QB making the adjustments on the field, and I don't even know if he called plays. We will soon see if it's Fields or Getsy from Fields POV. But we may never really see Getsy call plays again. But it's hard to know if there are no adjustments because Fields isn't making them, because Getsy can't make them, or because Getsy knows Fields can't make them so he doesn't even bother putting them in. I feel like Siemien may have been able to audible some last year in his 1(?) start. But we don't have much to go on with Bagent since he is a rookie UDFA or in Week 18 last year because Peterman and whoever were just bad. 

 

[CubinNY]

7 minutes ago, raw said:

So, I watched a few things. And I think we'll always have the "chicken or the egg" conversation w/ Fields/Getsy. Like there are plays where the Vikings are clearly showing they are blitzing. On the scrambles early, there were no hot routes. There are plays where Fields is getting pressure, but none of the WRs are turned around yet. There are plays where Fields is getting pressure, and there are quicker/shorter routes, but the DBs are jumping the routes and nowhere to throw. 

IDK if Fields isn't checking to different plays or if Fields isn't allowed to check certain plays. We've seen him make checks before (usually run/pass, not pass to different pass). My guess is based on the WRs not having any sight adjustments or options with their routes, that Fields is not allowed to change things (because if he was, WRs would be able to as well). Obviously, part of that is Getsy having a rigid scheme. But part of it is also probably due to Fields' limitations in identifying blitz and checking into different looks. But the Vikings weren't even disguising things. They were showing blitz and if anything, they were disguising when they were NOT blitzing. There's some easy checks to assume blitz if you see blitz, Bears made no adjustments. 

Now Kyle will say the screens are the only things Fields can do. But Getsy's only history of adjusting to the blitz is having a 1st ballot HOF QB making the adjustments on the field, and I don't even know if he called plays. We will soon see if it's Fields or Getsy from Fields POV. But we may never really see Getsy call plays again. But it's hard to know if there are no adjustments because Fields isn't making them, because Getsy can't make them, or because Getsy knows Fields can't make them so he doesn't even bother putting them in. I feel like Siemien may have been able to audible some last year in his 1(?) start. But we don't have much to go on with Bagent since he is a rookie UDFA or in Week 18 last year because Peterman and whoever were just bad. 

 

They seem to have a scripted first drive that works really well. I'm guessing that they practice those plays in order during the week. Then after that, it sort of falls apart. I go back and forth on Fields so much. I kind of feel sorry for him. Either he's in way over his head or he's been poorly coached. He's not like Trubisky at all. You can see the talent in individual plays. You can see the ability to throw from different angles and doing all the stuff a good QB does. It has to be poor playcalling and coaching.

Gun to my head, I'd stick with him and see if I could get in a coaching staff that had a clue. They are not an awful team. But last night was a classic game for them. They should have blown out Minnesota by more than three scores, and they won 12-10. 

[gflore34]

2 minutes ago, CubinNY said:

They seem to have a scripted first drive that works really well. I'm guessing that they practice those plays in order during the week. Then after that, it sort of falls apart. I go back and forth on Fields so much. I kind of feel sorry for him. Either he's in way over his head or he's been poorly coached. He's not like Trubisky at all. You can see the talent in individual plays. You can see the ability to throw from different angles and doing all the stuff a good QB does. It has to be poor playcalling and coaching.

Gun to my head, I'd stick with him and see if I could get in a coaching staff that had a clue. They are not an awful team. But last night was a classic game for them. They should have blown out Minnesota by more than three scores, and they won 12-10. 

Had they lost would it have been enough to finally part from Bear "tradition" and fire Eberflus along with Getsy?

[gflore34]

4 minutes ago, CubinNY said:

They seem to have a scripted first drive that works really well. I'm guessing that they practice those plays in order during the week. Then after that, it sort of falls apart. I go back and forth on Fields so much. I kind of feel sorry for him. Either he's in way over his head or he's been poorly coached. He's not like Trubisky at all. You can see the talent in individual plays. You can see the ability to throw from different angles and doing all the stuff a good QB does. It has to be poor playcalling and coaching.

Gun to my head, I'd stick with him and see if I could get in a coaching staff that had a clue. They are not an awful team. But last night was a classic game for them. They should have blown out Minnesota by more than three scores, and they won 12-10. 

Should have blown out the Lions as well.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I thought Bagent settled the "is the QB allowed to check the plays" debate 

[raw]

8 minutes ago, CubinNY said:

They seem to have a scripted first drive that works really well. I'm guessing that they practice those plays in order during the week. Then after that, it sort of falls apart. I go back and forth on Fields so much. I kind of feel sorry for him. Either he's in way over his head or he's been poorly coached. He's not like Trubisky at all. You can see the talent in individual plays. You can see the ability to throw from different angles and doing all the stuff a good QB does. It has to be poor playcalling and coaching.

Gun to my head, I'd stick with him and see if I could get in a coaching staff that had a clue. They are not an awful team. But last night was a classic game for them. They should have blown out Minnesota by more than three scores, and they won 12-10. 

This seems to blame coaching moreso than Fields. I don't know if I can do that. I just feel we don't have enough information to come to that conclusion. Like the timeline is a mess.

Early 2022- new scheme, 0 talent on the roster

Mid 2022- Fields playing superhero ball, putting the team on his back in the run game

Late 2022- what little talent was on the roster was traded/.injured or both, more of a mess.

Summer 2023- raving about Fields command of the offense in year 2, added top 10 WR and top 10 pick on OL

Early 2023- Fields struggling with same old stuff

Early-Mid 2023- Fields playing best ball of his career....gets hurt

Mid-late 2023- Fields back, better passing than 2022 and early 2023, but not as good as he was before injury. 

So is it that Getsy didn't want to put too much on Year 1 of Fields? Is he not putting too much on him now after coming back from injury? I complained last week that they didn't let Fields throw as much as any of the Bagent starts, but Fields threw 37 times yesterday, and it's not like we haven't seen the screen/short game for Bagent. Does Getsy not trust Fields? Or is Getsy trying to ease Fields back to the level he was pre-injury? I think everything's been too choppy to determine anything. 

I also think though, you can't wait around to see if everything works next year. Eberflus/Getsy are bad. Even beyond X's & O's stuff, the penalties, the lack of adjustments, the late game failures show these guys aren't good enough. And unfairly or not, Fields not overcoming this means he's probably not good enough. At least not good enough to where you pass up a QB with one of the top picks in the draft for the 2nd year in a row, while potentially guaranteeing him over 23M in 2025.

[raw]

3 minutes ago, Hairyducked Idiot said:

I thought Bagent settled the "is the QB allowed to check the plays" debate 

Did he? I don't remember a bunch of checks, then again, I didn't watch 2 of the games live and half watched the other 2.