The White Sox Thread: 2022 Will Be the Last Call for TLR (P. 11)

[Bertz]

 

I think the thing that also hurts, is this is one fewer source of potential star power. The White Sox, currently on paper, have enough talent to maybe get past the Twins, but then inevitably get curb stomped by the Yankees. IMO that's because they lack stars. They have Giolito and Grandma, and then ymmv on Lynn and Moncada. To join that top echelon of teams, they need another 2-3 stars, and Eloy was clearly one of the prime opportunities to get one.

[Bertz]

TLR just let Lucas Giolito throw 46 pitches in the first inning. I haven't seen anything like that since Jonathan Broxton ~10 years ago and he was basically broken after that.

[CyHawk_Cub]

"But managers don't matter."

 

I think of stuff like this whenever I see fans making this argument. First time it occurred to me as a fan that managerial decisions are more about avoiding harm was the arguments about firing Dusty in-season his final year. It matters.

[Cubswin11]

"But managers don't matter."

 

I think of stuff like this whenever I see fans making this argument. First time it occurred to me as a fan that managerial decisions are more about avoiding harm was the arguments about firing Dusty in-season his final year. It matters.

I definitely think they matter but think they largely matter more with adversely/negatively affecting you by doing stupid horsefeathers like pitching guys too much, being an ass in the clubhouse, playing the wrong guys, etc. I think it’s hard for a manager to positively affect a team and add a ton of wins but think it’s not hard for managers to add to losses for you.

[Bertz]

TLR just let Lucas Giolito throw 46 pitches in the first inning. I haven't seen anything like that since Jonathan Broxton ~10 years ago and he was basically broken after that.

 

So I got curious about this and looked up the details. It was June 27th of 2010, Joe Torre left Broxton in for 48 pitches because the Yankees were in town. Here are Broxton's career numbers before/after:

 

          ERA - BB%  - K%
Before - 2.81 - 9.1% - 32.7%
After  - 4.08 - 9.5% - 20.9%

 

It's even more stark within the 2010 season:

 

Before - 0.83 -  4.0% - 38.1% 
After  - 7.58 - 15.9% - 17.2%

 

If something like this happens to Giolito, that's likely literally enough to torpedo their rebuild.

[ChiCubsFan]

Doesn’t being a reliever who typically only throws 20ish pitches per day vs a starter who typically throws 100ish pitches per day matter? Genuinely asking. I’ve never heard complaints of too many pitches thrown by a starter in a particular inning.

[muntjack]

Same reason you do sets when you're lifting weights. The recovery time between innings is critical.

[Cubswin11]

Doesn’t being a reliever who typically only throws 20ish pitches per day vs a starter who typically throws 100ish pitches per day matter? Genuinely asking. I’ve never heard complaints of too many pitches thrown by a starter in a particular inning.

I mean there’s a reason you don’t often see guys throw more than ~30 pitches in an inning. It’s taxing on an arm to do that. This 47 pitch inning comes after a 30+ pitch inning vs Cleveland last week in his last start. If this treatment continues I’d be shocked if he doesn’t get hurt or at least sees a performance/velo/stuff drop off.

Edited April 19, 2021 by Cubswin11

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Doesn’t being a reliever who typically only throws 20ish pitches per day vs a starter who typically throws 100ish pitches per day matter? Genuinely asking. I’ve never heard complaints of too many pitches thrown by a starter in a particular inning.

 

I think it probably does make a difference, but doesn't remove the risk entirely. The Cubs have had a pretty hard limit on single inning pitch counts for starters at the minor league level for most of the Theo/Jed era, as one example.

[Bertz]

Same reason you do sets when you're lifting weights. The recovery time between innings is critical.

 

Yeah I think it's basically this. I know most orgs will yank guys in the minors mid AB if they cross 30ish pitches.

 

I think it's especially galling given that orgs are already scared horsefeathers-less about pitcher attrition this year coming off of last season.

[We Got The Whole 9]

Later in the 7th he let Yermin Mercedes pitch. Maybe 2 dominoes to fall!

[Hairyducked Idiot]

I have definitely heard of high-pitch innings being dangerous for starters.

[Outshined_One]

The bizarre thing about this is I remember TLR actually doing a decent job of managing the Cardinals' rotation and bullpen. Granted, my points of comparison at the time were Lou Piniella and Dusty Baker, plus TLR had Dave Duncan as his pitching coach back then, but still.

[We Got The Whole 9]

Wasn't sure if I should put this in here or the general baseball thread

 

But it appears to be a given that Nick Madrigal is going to lead the league in contact (97.6; 4 pts higher than 2nd place)

 

Has a rookie ever led that category?

[Cubswin11]

Wasn't sure if I should put this in here or the general baseball thread

 

But it appears to be a given that Nick Madrigal is going to lead the league in contact (97.6; 4 pts higher than 2nd place)

 

Has a rookie ever led that category?

I mean we are like 15 games in to the year, how is that given? It literally would take a few games of little contact to drop him outside the top 5-10 probably.

[soccer10k]

I have definitely heard of high-pitch innings being dangerous for starters.

 

I seem to remember an instance of Dusty with Cincy leaving a pitcher in to throw a ton of pitches in the first two innings and the guy either got hurt within a couple starts or his performance just plummeted immediately after.

[Cubswin11]

I have definitely heard of high-pitch innings being dangerous for starters.

 

I seem to remember an instance of Dusty with Cincy leaving a pitcher in to throw a ton of pitches in the first two innings and the guy either got hurt within a couple starts or his performance just plummeted immediately after.

That was Harang, right? His career was basically over after that.

[NonProfitCow]

Wasn't sure if I should put this in here or the general baseball thread

 

But it appears to be a given that Nick Madrigal is going to lead the league in contact (97.6; 4 pts higher than 2nd place)

 

Has a rookie ever led that category?

I mean we are like 15 games in to the year, how is that given? It literally would take a few games of little contact to drop him outside the top 5-10 probably.

He struck out 21 times in 705 MiLB PA. It's the biggest part of his game.

[Thurman Merman]

Wasn't sure if I should put this in here or the general baseball thread

 

But it appears to be a given that Nick Madrigal is going to lead the league in contact (97.6; 4 pts higher than 2nd place)

 

Has a rookie ever led that category?

I mean we are like 15 games in to the year, how is that given? It literally would take a few games of little contact to drop him outside the top 5-10 probably.

He struck out 21 times in 705 MiLB PA. It's the biggest part of his game.

How soon we all forget contact god Willian astudillio

[soccer10k]

I have definitely heard of high-pitch innings being dangerous for starters.

 

I seem to remember an instance of Dusty with Cincy leaving a pitcher in to throw a ton of pitches in the first two innings and the guy either got hurt within a couple starts or his performance just plummeted immediately after.

That was Harang, right? His career was basically over after that.

 

Found it. You were correct. It was Harang in 2008.

 

Starts on May 22 and throws 103 pitches. May 25 game goes extra innings and Dusty brings him in to throw 63 pitches. ERA was 3.32 after that day. May 29 they start him again and he throws 73 pitches in 4 innings and got roughed up. Rest of the season he had a 5.88 ERA and went on the DL in July. 05 through 07 he had a sub 4 ERA all three years. 08, 09 and 10 he was over 4 with two of the years over 4.75. He was fine in 11, 12 and 14 though with sub-4’s.

[We Got The Whole 9]

Wasn't sure if I should put this in here or the general baseball thread

 

But it appears to be a given that Nick Madrigal is going to lead the league in contact (97.6; 4 pts higher than 2nd place)

 

Has a rookie ever led that category?

I mean we are like 15 games in to the year, how is that given? It literally would take a few games of little contact to drop him outside the top 5-10 probably.

I'll put the house on it

 

Hes swung and missed i believe twice this year. I dont expect his rate to drop much. And its unlikely the guys under him raise their contact that much to pass him.

[Cubswin11]

Rebuilds are easy

 

 

[17 Seconds]

their pitching is still pretty loaded if they don't start breaking

[Cubswin11]

their pitching is still pretty loaded if they don't start breaking

Rodon will break soon enough, Giolito has been a little off so far and Kopech and Cease look more like RPs than SPs. Meh. And Eloy’s and Robert’s injuries seem like they could be long term things. Eloy’s especially and making him a full time DH and still having Abreu, Grandal and that other bat first prospect around. Robert’s injury is something that could affect his speed/athleticism permanently.

[d_money]

Rebuilds are easy

 

 

Mike Trout Jr (according to Steve Stone) is on the shelf for a few months.