Re: What would you deal Garza for?

[Guest]

Amaro took over the Phillies after they won a world series. The years Amaro has been in charge have gone 93 wins(NL Pennant), 97 wins(NLDS title), 102 wins(NL East title), and now this year, where they're on pace to win 69 games. Things have gotten very ugly very quickly, and the prognosis is not very good to turn things around.

[SouthSideRyan]

But the Howard contract isn't a problem because they're still winning.

[davell]

What do you guys think of Shelby Miller as the lead piece in a Garza deal? Too much to get him and Martinez, plus a decent guy or two eith them? Too risky, with Miller's struggles? Don't want to trade with Cards period? They may be set up as good as anyone for us to deal with.

[Guest]

Miller and Wong would be a pretty nice get for Garza, methinks.

[ctcf]

I'm not sure how I feel about Miller these days, but I think it's a bit silly to turn down a division rival of they offer you the best package.

[Guest]

FYI, Miller's velocity has bounced back in his last few starts.

[Guest]

FYI, Miller's velocity has bounced back in his last few starts.

 

How've the results been?

[Little Slide Rooter]

Ruben Amaro Jr. is a bonehead.

 

Why? It's not like the Phillies are going to do a full on rebuild. We're talking one of the best young pitchers in baseball here.

Is this a serious post? Amaro has been awful and has basically doomed the Phillies to high-payroll suckitude for the foreseeable future.

 

And all they got was 5 lousy consecutive division titles, 2 stupid pennants, and 1 crappy World Series.

 

No the [expletive] he didn't. Phillies won in 2008. Amaro took over in 2009. Pat Gillick and Ed Wade did all that, and they were also was responsible for acquiring the players that got them there (i.e. Jimmy Rollins, Chase Utley, Ryan Howard, Cole Hamels, etc.)

 

Ruben Amaro Jr. took over a World Series Champion and proceeded to [expletive] all over their future.

 

When your rotation is anchored by Hamels, Lee, and Halladay, your future is not necessarily [expletive] all over. I'm not going to deny that he's made his share of bad moves. Even during the pre-season when the Phillies were heavy favs in the NL, I didn't quite get the Rollins re-signing. When your a big market team, you can afford to make mistakes that the little guys can't.

[davell]

Soooooo, your defense of Amaro is he's got money he can spend, so he's not a bad GM?

[Guest]

 

When your rotation is anchored by Hamels, Lee, and Halladay, your future is not necessarily [expletive] all over. I'm not going to deny that he's made his share of bad moves. Even during the pre-season when the Phillies were heavy favs in the NL, I didn't quite get the Rollins re-signing. When your a big market team, you can afford to make mistakes that the little guys can't.

 

So, what good stuff has he done?

 

You already tried to attribute a WS team to him that he was not in charge of.

[pccubfan]

 

When your rotation is anchored by Hamels, Lee, and Halladay, your future is not necessarily [expletive] all over. I'm not going to deny that he's made his share of bad moves. Even during the pre-season when the Phillies were heavy favs in the NL, I didn't quite get the Rollins re-signing. When your a big market team, you can afford to make mistakes that the little guys can't.

 

So, what good stuff has he done?

 

You already tried to attribute a WS team to him that he was not in charge of.

 

Can't believe I'm going to defend Amaro, but the fact that he has put together a team that has averaged over 97 wins the past three seasons is something. Hasn't helped them in the crapshoot that is the playoffs, but the regular season win totals have been pretty legit.

[CubColtPacer]

 

When your rotation is anchored by Hamels, Lee, and Halladay, your future is not necessarily [expletive] all over. I'm not going to deny that he's made his share of bad moves. Even during the pre-season when the Phillies were heavy favs in the NL, I didn't quite get the Rollins re-signing. When your a big market team, you can afford to make mistakes that the little guys can't.

 

So, what good stuff has he done?

 

You already tried to attribute a WS team to him that he was not in charge of.

 

Can't believe I'm going to defend Amaro, but the fact that he has put together a team that has averaged over 97 wins the past three seasons is something. Hasn't helped them in the crapshoot that is the playoffs, but the regular season win totals have been pretty legit.

 

The Phillies payroll is also 74 million higher than it was in 2008. He was also handed a good farm system to make trades with. 5 of the 8 offensive starters were already there, and 2 starters as well.

 

Amaro has done some good things, but he had a ton to work with. He also managed to take a team that should have been good both now and later, and instead the future has been turned into a huge question mark despite their 170 million dollar payroll. He's been using all his available resources on his current team over and over again with no regard for the future, and that's a terrible way to run a baseball team. And now the future is quickly catching up to him. Their payroll should partially save him, but it gets tougher as the hole continues to get deeper.

[jersey cubs fan]

Can't believe I'm going to defend Amaro, but the fact that he has put together a team that has averaged over 97 wins the past three seasons is something. .

 

He didn't really put it together though, it was put together and winning 90+ when he took the reins. He began to tinker and didn't do much damage early on but it's quickly falling apart.

[pccubfan]

 

When your rotation is anchored by Hamels, Lee, and Halladay, your future is not necessarily [expletive] all over. I'm not going to deny that he's made his share of bad moves. Even during the pre-season when the Phillies were heavy favs in the NL, I didn't quite get the Rollins re-signing. When your a big market team, you can afford to make mistakes that the little guys can't.

 

So, what good stuff has he done?

 

You already tried to attribute a WS team to him that he was not in charge of.

 

Can't believe I'm going to defend Amaro, but the fact that he has put together a team that has averaged over 97 wins the past three seasons is something. Hasn't helped them in the crapshoot that is the playoffs, but the regular season win totals have been pretty legit.

 

The Phillies payroll is also 74 million higher than it was in 2008. He was also handed a good farm system to make trades with. 5 of the 8 offensive starters were already there, and 2 starters as well.

 

Amaro has done some good things, but he had a ton to work with. He also managed to take a team that should have been good both now and later, and instead the future has been turned into a huge question mark despite their 170 million dollar payroll. He's been using all his available resources on his current team over and over again with no regard for the future, and that's a terrible way to run a baseball team. And now the future is quickly catching up to him. Their payroll should partially save him, but it gets tougher as the hole continues to get deeper.

 

I won't argue that he was placed in a good position but winning 97 games per year over a three year period is pretty tough to do. He added some top line starters to the team that just didn't pay off in WS titles.

 

Would you rate him any differently had the Phillies won two of the last three titles?

 

He has made his job more difficult in the coming years with the contracts, but maybe he can make things work. Maybe he'll surprise us.

[pccubfan]

Can't believe I'm going to defend Amaro, but the fact that he has put together a team that has averaged over 97 wins the past three seasons is something. .

 

He didn't really put it together though, it was put together and winning 90+ when he took the reins. He began to tinker and didn't do much damage early on but it's quickly falling apart.

 

Keeping a team that good for that long isn't easy and comes with some issues. He's going to have earn being competitive from this point. If he can continue to make the team competitive then he's doing his job.

[jersey cubs fan]

Can't believe I'm going to defend Amaro, but the fact that he has put together a team that has averaged over 97 wins the past three seasons is something. .

 

He didn't really put it together though, it was put together and winning 90+ when he took the reins. He began to tinker and didn't do much damage early on but it's quickly falling apart.

 

Keeping a team that good for that long isn't easy and comes with some issues. He's going to have earn being competitive from this point. If he can continue to make the team competitive then he's doing his job.

 

That long? 3 years as the highest payroll team in the league and now they aren't at all competitive. They suck.

[17 Seconds]

Ruben Amaro Jr. is a bonehead.

 

Why? It's not like the Phillies are going to do a full on rebuild. We're talking one of the best young pitchers in baseball here.

 

stop calling garza and hamels young pitchers

[toonsterwu]

What do you guys think of Shelby Miller as the lead piece in a Garza deal? Too much to get him and Martinez, plus a decent guy or two eith them? Too risky, with Miller's struggles? Don't want to trade with Cards period? They may be set up as good as anyone for us to deal with.

 

I'd love it if we can get Miller. The raw stuff, by most accounts, is still there, and while I like Martinez, Miller still seems a better bet as a top of the rotation starter.

 

That said, I'll still be surprised if they move Miller, and I'd be very surprised if they put Miller and Martinez in a package. Miller and Jenkins, that I could perhaps see.

[toonsterwu]

I don't think much of Amaro (I really don't think he's that much better than say, a Jim Hendry), but a mild defense of his is that, well, a lot of GM's would've traded key parts of the farm to try and extend this run. That said, their window was closing faster than people thought (I had them 3rd in the NL East entering the season, and I recall a lot of people thinking I was crazy with that).

 

At a certain point, you have to stop continually trading away the farm because your core simply doesn't warrant it anymore. Right now, they've got an aging core, which if healthy, probably has a decent year or two left, but their farm is fairly weak, and they took a lot of toolsy gambles, some of which haven't panned out.

 

They need to try and make the best deal possible for Hamels, to try and accelerate the rebuilding process. If they can get an Olt from Texas, and maybe a couple young arms, that'd be a heck of a package that could step in and help their aging core next year, while giving them some hope for the future.

[Little Slide Rooter]

And what did Epstein really do for The Red Sox? He took a very strong foundation and built around it. How did he do it? Player development, big trades, and spending money. Amaro's main difference is that he hasn't had a Pedroia, Papelbon, or Ellsbury develop as of yet. I guess he did a lot more "moneyballing" to earn his first ring, but for the second it was more about money spending. Edited July 13, 2012 by Little Slide Rooter

[Guest]

Sometimes, ideas are wrong.

[17 Seconds]

And what did Epstein really do for The Red Sox? He took a very strong foundation and built around it. How did he do it? Player development, big trades, and spending money. Amaro's main difference is that he hasn't had a Pedroia, Papelbon, or Ellsbury develop as of yet. I guess he did a lot more "moneyballing" to earn his first ring, but for the second it was more about money spending.

 

those 3 players were on the 2007 team, not the 2004 team. so......

[davell]

I'm thinking WSR is pacing around his computer right now, about to rip his Cubs shirt off, to reveal he's been a Phillies fan all along. Maybe throwing a few Hogan-esque hand to ears, at us.

[Guest]

And what did Epstein really do for The Red Sox? He took a very strong foundation and built around it. How did he do it? Player development, big trades, and spending money. Amaro's main difference is that he hasn't had a Pedroia, Papelbon, or Ellsbury develop as of yet. I guess he did a lot more "moneyballing" to earn his first ring, but for the second it was more about money spending.

 

This is dumb, even for you. And this defense of Amaro is weird and dumb.

[Clem Fandango]

And what did Epstein really do for The Red Sox? He took a very strong foundation and built around it. How did he do it? Player development, big trades, and spending money. Amaro's main difference is that he hasn't had a Pedroia, Papelbon, or Ellsbury develop as of yet. I guess he did a lot more "moneyballing" to earn his first ring, but for the second it was more about money spending.

 

Amaro traded away all the players that would've/could be developed into useful major leaguers. Travis d'Arnaud, Kyle Drabek, Michael Taylor, Jarred Cosart, Jonathan Singleton, Domingo Santana, among others. The only one he's held onto is Domonic Brown, and you see how far his stock has fallen.

 

Seriously take a look at their drafts since 2009: http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/team/draft.jsp?c_id=phi&year=2009

 

Just a big pile of hot garbage. He's not setting them up for [expletive] in the future. If these high priced veterans don't get healthy and pump out the best results they can before father time takes its course they're fucked for a long time, because then all their high priced talent becomes untradeable because they're either too old and aren't worth it or they're winding up in their last years and they won't get much in return.

 

This decade is all doom and gloom for the Phillies unless they decide they want to say "[expletive] the system" and pay the luxury tax and open up the pocketbooks for the best FA's on the market, cause that's the only way they're gonna be able to compete over the next several years and that's not even a recipe for success.