Zambrano says he is retiring

[erik316wttn]

So if he doesn't file retirement papers with the league, how long does he need to be away from the team before we can void his contract?

[UMFan83]

Sorry if this was posted already. Nothing shocking.

 

But Hendry claimed there were some problems with Zambrano that have been kept under wraps and did not elaborate.

 

"We've had other instances of him not being the teammate I would (want him to) aspire to be," he said. "And certainly not all of that is public. You can tell by the sanction we're trying to enforce that it's not tolerated, and it's not right for the other 24. It's just totally uncalled for."

[erik316wttn]

And are GMs really so stupid that they base the amount they are willing to give up for a player on the team's public comments?

 

No, but Hendry typically talks himself into a corner by enraging the meatheads to the point that no solution is acceptable other than the banishment of said player. GMs will lowball him because they know he HAS to make a move.

 

Had all parties just shut up and kept the clubhouse business in the clubhouse, no one would be wise to any of this today.

 

Are you against the 30-day suspension? Eventually it would have come out what happened once word hit the press of his suspension. Teams need to discipline behavior like this. If a guy is fiery, fine. I love guys who have a ton of passion for the game and want to win. But Z went beyond that. When it affects the team, it needs to be addressed, and that's what happened here.

 

I don't support Hendry at ALL, but I'm on his side here.

[bleedingblue]

And are GMs really so stupid that they base the amount they are willing to give up for a player on the team's public comments?

 

No, but Hendry typically talks himself into a corner by enraging the meatheads to the point that no solution is acceptable other than the banishment of said player. GMs will lowball him because they know he HAS to make a move.

 

Had all parties just shut up and kept the clubhouse business in the clubhouse, no one would be wise to any of this today.

 

Are you against the 30-day suspension? Eventually it would have come out what happened once word hit the press of his suspension. Teams need to discipline behavior like this. If a guy is fiery, fine. I love guys who have a ton of passion for the game and want to win. But Z went beyond that. When it affects the team, it needs to be addressed, and that's what happened here.

 

I don't support Hendry at ALL, but I'm on his side here.

 

Just curious, but how did Zambrano leaving after he got ejected/ripped to shreds by Soriano affect the team in any shape or manner? Things said/done in the clubhouse should stay there.

[erik316wttn]

And are GMs really so stupid that they base the amount they are willing to give up for a player on the team's public comments?

 

No, but Hendry typically talks himself into a corner by enraging the meatheads to the point that no solution is acceptable other than the banishment of said player. GMs will lowball him because they know he HAS to make a move.

 

Had all parties just shut up and kept the clubhouse business in the clubhouse, no one would be wise to any of this today.

 

Are you against the 30-day suspension? Eventually it would have come out what happened once word hit the press of his suspension. Teams need to discipline behavior like this. If a guy is fiery, fine. I love guys who have a ton of passion for the game and want to win. But Z went beyond that. When it affects the team, it needs to be addressed, and that's what happened here.

 

I don't support Hendry at ALL, but I'm on his side here.

 

Just curious, but how did Zambrano leaving after he got ejected/ripped to shreds by Soriano affect the team in any shape or manner? Things said/done in the clubhouse should stay there.

 

You have to be consistent. So if it's ok for Z to throw a fit and go home when things don't go his way and you do nothing, that means you're saying it's ok when anyone else does it, too. And it's not like this is the first time Z has done something crazy like this. If it was from totally out of the blue you could overlook it, but if it's forgiven it'll just happen again. Something needed to be done.

 

And like I said-- once the Cubs announced a 30-day suspension for Z, the reason would have gotten out regardless. I hope he really stays away so the Cubs can spend that money on a pitcher who isn't a complete mental case.

[bleedingblue]

And are GMs really so stupid that they base the amount they are willing to give up for a player on the team's public comments?

 

No, but Hendry typically talks himself into a corner by enraging the meatheads to the point that no solution is acceptable other than the banishment of said player. GMs will lowball him because they know he HAS to make a move.

 

Had all parties just shut up and kept the clubhouse business in the clubhouse, no one would be wise to any of this today.

 

Are you against the 30-day suspension? Eventually it would have come out what happened once word hit the press of his suspension. Teams need to discipline behavior like this. If a guy is fiery, fine. I love guys who have a ton of passion for the game and want to win. But Z went beyond that. When it affects the team, it needs to be addressed, and that's what happened here.

 

I don't support Hendry at ALL, but I'm on his side here.

 

Just curious, but how did Zambrano leaving after he got ejected/ripped to shreds by Soriano affect the team in any shape or manner? Things said/done in the clubhouse should stay there.

 

You have to be consistent. So if it's ok for Z to throw a fit and go home when things don't go his way and you do nothing, that means you're saying it's ok when anyone else does it, too. And it's not like this is the first time Z has done something crazy like this. If it was from totally out of the blue you could overlook it, but if it's forgiven it'll just happen again. Something needed to be done.

 

And like I said-- once the Cubs announced a 30-day suspension for Z, the reason would have gotten out regardless. I hope he really stays away so the Cubs can spend that money on a pitcher who isn't a complete mental case.

 

Where did Zambrano throw a fit this time around? From everything I've seen/read, he was quiet until Soriano came roaring down on him. Then he mentioned retirement and left the clubhouse after he was ejected from the game.

 

I could understand this blowing up if Zambrano blew a gasket before he left the game and then went into the clubhouse and started wailing on things. The opposite happened here. And why isn't Soriano taking any kind of blame here for running down an heavily emotional pitcher in the clubhouse after he just gave up 5 homers and ejected from a game? What was he expecting going down there?

[Tracer Bullet]

And are GMs really so stupid that they base the amount they are willing to give up for a player on the team's public comments?

 

No, but Hendry typically talks himself into a corner by enraging the meatheads to the point that no solution is acceptable other than the banishment of said player. GMs will lowball him because they know he HAS to make a move.

 

Had all parties just shut up and kept the clubhouse business in the clubhouse, no one would be wise to any of this today.

 

Are you against the 30-day suspension? Eventually it would have come out what happened once word hit the press of his suspension. Teams need to discipline behavior like this. If a guy is fiery, fine. I love guys who have a ton of passion for the game and want to win. But Z went beyond that. When it affects the team, it needs to be addressed, and that's what happened here.

 

I don't support Hendry at ALL, but I'm on his side here.

 

Just curious, but how did Zambrano leaving after he got ejected/ripped to shreds by Soriano affect the team in any shape or manner? Things said/done in the clubhouse should stay there.

 

You have to be consistent. So if it's ok for Z to throw a fit and go home when things don't go his way and you do nothing, that means you're saying it's ok when anyone else does it, too. And it's not like this is the first time Z has done something crazy like this. If it was from totally out of the blue you could overlook it, but if it's forgiven it'll just happen again. Something needed to be done.

 

And like I said-- once the Cubs announced a 30-day suspension for Z, the reason would have gotten out regardless. I hope he really stays away so the Cubs can spend that money on a pitcher who isn't a complete mental case.

 

no, no you don't. it's not tee ball.

[NCCubFan]

And why isn't Soriano taking any kind of blame here for running down an heavily emotional pitcher in the clubhouse after he just gave up 5 homers and ejected from a game? What was he expecting going down there?

Actually Soriano should get credit, not blame. He felt the need to call Zambrano out, but he did it privately in the clubhouse, unlike Z who does it publicly in the dugout or through the media.

[bleedingblue]

And why isn't Soriano taking any kind of blame here for running down an heavily emotional pitcher in the clubhouse after he just gave up 5 homers and ejected from a game? What was he expecting going down there?

Actually Soriano should get credit, not blame. He felt the need to call Zambrano out, but he did it privately in the clubhouse, unlike Z who does it publicly in the dugout or through the media.

 

Somewhat agree, but probably not the right time after Zambrano just got tagged and tossed.

 

Regardless though, I don't see it as that big of an issue and not really much of a meltdown either. A guy left the clubhouse early after he was tossed, and mentioned that he might retire because he got chewed by another player in the clubhouse. I'm sure this is the only time something like this has ever happened in a clubhouse. :roll:

 

Should have been fined pretty heavily, but a little overboard on the suspension thing.

[Tarver]

Sure, they should've just allowed him to have his way as always. It's worked so well to date.

[Rob]

Hendry is such a [expletive] joke... We are quite literally the only team in baseball that disciplines guys for being dicks.

 

Hendry is a joke, but your position on this is laughably naive. Awful as they are, Hendry and Quade are still in management. You can't let your employees run roughshod over you like this, or you run the risk of everyone doing it. I'm sure both of them still aspire to work in baseball after we sack them; letting Z have his way again would only undermine whatever respect they've earned in MLB over the years. Not that I care, but Z instigated this, not the FO.

 

And Z isn't worth the trouble anyway. You and JR act like it's still 08. His #'s suck.

 

So what you're saying is that the other 29 teams in baseball not only constantly discipline players who aren't actually breaking any major rules, but that they do it so often that Hendry and Quade would be laughed out of baseball for not doing so? That's interesting, because I can't think of a single instance by a team other than the Cubs... at least not at the major league level.

 

Oh, and Z's numbers don't suck as badly as you think they do... especially when compared to his likely replacements for the rotation next year.

[rocket]

Sure, they should've just allowed him to have his way as always. It's worked so well to date.

 

it kind of has. 125-81 record, 123 era+, etc.

[Rob]

I can't believe anyone is defending Zambrano after all the crap he's done over the years; send him packing to the AL and be done with it

 

I can't believe anybody would rather have Casey Coleman pitching for us next season than Carlos Zambrano... especially when we wont be getting anything in return for Zambrano.

 

If I had to bet on who would have a better season next year, it'd be Zambrano, but not by a landslide or anything. Zambrano's got a 4.5ish FIP, is on the wrong side of 30 and has almost 2,000 innings on his arm. The peripherals this season point to long-term problems.

 

Okay, maybe Coleman is a bad example, but it shouldn't be that hard to find pitchers capable of doing what Zambrano's been doing.

 

I've been saying this for a while now, but Z is one of those guys who kinda falls into a bunch of cracks in modern statistical evaluations. FIP undersells him in large part because it assumes all pitchers have equal skill when it comes to controlling the running game. Normally that's an assumption that wont make a huge difference, but Z definitely belongs at the extreme end of the spectrum, as many pickoffs as he gets and as few stolen bases as he allows. FIP also by its very definition assumes all fielders are the same... so a pitchers own defensive value isn't reflected in FIP. I'd peg Z as above average in that regard as well.

 

So there's a couple factors artificially inflating his FIP... is it going to make a huge difference? No, probably not. But can it add up to a quarter or a third of a run? Sure it can. And then there's his bat to reconcile. His batting prowess doesn't show up in FIP or WAR or anywhere people would typically look. But I don't think anybody is going to question that he's an extremely good hitter for a pitcher... contributing probably somewhere in the realm of an extra 5 runs per year with the bat. That's roughly equal to slicing another quarter or third of a point off of his FIP.

 

Even after all of that, is he an ace? No. He's not anymore. But he's a pretty equivalent package to a pitcher who is average at hitting, fielding, and controlling the running game while posting an ERA or FIP in the mid to high 3's. Would anybody be this eager to trash and unload a guy if Ryan Dempster had a bad attitude?

[Tarver]

Hendry is such a [expletive] joke... We are quite literally the only team in baseball that disciplines guys for being dicks.

 

Hendry is a joke, but your position on this is laughably naive. Awful as they are, Hendry and Quade are still in management. You can't let your employees run roughshod over you like this, or you run the risk of everyone doing it. I'm sure both of them still aspire to work in baseball after we sack them; letting Z have his way again would only undermine whatever respect they've earned in MLB over the years. Not that I care, but Z instigated this, not the FO.

 

And Z isn't worth the trouble anyway. You and JR act like it's still 08. His #'s suck.

 

So what you're saying is that the other 29 teams in baseball not only constantly discipline players who aren't actually breaking any major rules, but that they do it so often that Hendry and Quade would be laughed out of baseball for not doing so? That's interesting, because I can't think of a single instance by a team other than the Cubs... at least not at the major league level.

 

Oh, and Z's numbers don't suck as badly as you think they do... especially when compared to his likely replacements for the rotation next year.

 

That's not what I said, it's what you typed. And again, this incident isn't bad in a vacuum. But Z's history warrants discipline. He had to know he's on a short leash after last year.

 

And we don't know who's replacing him yet. That argument can wait until we do.

[Rob]

Hendry is such a [expletive] joke... We are quite literally the only team in baseball that disciplines guys for being dicks.

 

Hendry is a joke, but your position on this is laughably naive. Awful as they are, Hendry and Quade are still in management. You can't let your employees run roughshod over you like this, or you run the risk of everyone doing it. I'm sure both of them still aspire to work in baseball after we sack them; letting Z have his way again would only undermine whatever respect they've earned in MLB over the years. Not that I care, but Z instigated this, not the FO.

 

And Z isn't worth the trouble anyway. You and JR act like it's still 08. His #'s suck.

 

So what you're saying is that the other 29 teams in baseball not only constantly discipline players who aren't actually breaking any major rules, but that they do it so often that Hendry and Quade would be laughed out of baseball for not doing so? That's interesting, because I can't think of a single instance by a team other than the Cubs... at least not at the major league level.

 

Oh, and Z's numbers don't suck as badly as you think they do... especially when compared to his likely replacements for the rotation next year.

 

That's not what I said, it's what you typed. And again, this incident isn't bad in a vacuum. But Z's history warrants discipline. He had to know he's on a short leash after last year.

 

And we don't know who's replacing him yet. That argument can wait until we do.

 

I'm failing to see the part where I was wrong in my interpretation of what you wrote.

 

I said we're the only team in baseball that does this.

 

You said I was being "laughably naive" and implied Hendry/Quade would have trouble getting jobs if they didn't do this.

 

I asked for examples of other teams doing this.

 

What am I missing?

[Tarver]

Sure, they should've just allowed him to have his way as always. It's worked so well to date.

 

it kind of has. 125-81 record, 123 era+, etc.

 

Trending down.

[Soul]

If you were actually reading my posts you'd realize I was talkng about Sosa in that last post contrasting that situation with the Z situation, which I painted in the same light you did.

 

Read the post above the one you quoted.

 

My bad, XZ.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Where did Zambrano throw a fit this time around?

 

Throwing at opposing batters for no reason would be a start.

[Tracer Bullet]

Sure, they should've just allowed him to have his way as always. It's worked so well to date.

 

it kind of has. 125-81 record, 123 era+, etc.

 

Trending down.

 

ok, so by switching topics, you implicitly admit you're wrong that it hasn't worked out before now?

[KingCubsFan]

Where did Zambrano throw a fit this time around? From everything I've seen/read, he was quiet until Soriano came roaring down on him.

 

You must have missed the part where he started throwing at players because he was getting shelled and was frustrated. I've always been a fan of Zambrano, and I know people on this board love taking the position they view as contrary to the masses, but it's kind of surprising that people are going to such lengths to deflect the blame to others in this case. Z has a consistent history (probably most of which we don't even know about it) of erratic and selfish behavior like this, and it's been an unnecessary distraction for years for his teammates. Given that he's no longer a top of the rotation talent, there's really no reason to continue to put up with it when he can be replaced.

 

With that said, although this particular incident is all on Zambrano, this situation is just another indictment on the entire organizations' ineptitude. Sure, Zambrano was really good, but class organizations either eventually get rid of these players and find adequate replacements (the Red Sox and Manny Ramirez) or find a way to have these players channel these emotions (the Rays and Matt Garza). The Cubs can do neither, and we're left with situations like this.

[Shilzzz]

this is pretty simple: if you are good, you get several opprotunities, if you aren't, you don't. zambrano has been good, but he is not quite so this year. so while he has "gotten away with it" before and been ok, this isn't like when bradley had actually been producing when he was given away, zambrano has a WHIP of 1.44 and an ERA of 4.82. what's more is his homerun rate has more than doubled, his strikeout rate has gone down, he is giving up more than a hit per 9 more than last year, and, obviously his ERA+ is down, but it is -40 from last season. his FIP is right in line with his baseball card stats, all while having a BABIP against that is a mere .003 lower than last year. i'm sorry, but that he has been good does not get a pass. is he replaceable? his current version is easily done so, yes. and though people are throwing casey coleman and others around, really, they wouldn't be much worse, if any. you could argue that zambrano has shown ability to be much more, but you could also argue that some of the AAAA guys have more of a ceiling at this point. whether he has been good means little in whether he should be retained in light of who he has been recently and who he likely is going to be going to forward, all other things considered.

[erik316wttn]

Where did Zambrano throw a fit this time around?

 

Throwing at opposing batters for no reason would be a start.

 

This.

 

Also, it's been implied that there have been several other incidents that were covered up by the team that we didn't hear about. This was probably just the last straw after many, many warnings. Eventually you have to cut bait when a guy becomes more trouble than he's worth.

 

If Z really doesn't want to be here anymore, it makes no sense to have him around the guys who actually do, and letting Z's negative attitude affect everyone else. Let him walk. Because if you get him to come back, it's just a matter of time before this happens again. Let him "retire" and get that money off the books. I'm just afraid the team will convince him to come back and then trade him for some "prospects" that will never see the light of day while paying 85% of his remaining contract.

[Sammy Sofa]

Please stop talking he's actually going to retire. He's not, and it has nothing to do with the team "letting" him do so. His agent and the union have likely (and rightly) pointed out to him that walking away from approx. $23 million is beyond moronic.

[erik316wttn]

Please stop talking he's actually going to retire. He's not, and it has nothing to do with the team "letting" him do so. His agent and the union have likely (and rightly) pointed out to him that walking away from approx. $23 million is beyond moronic.

 

You're right. It probably won't happen. But a guy can dream, can't he?

[dew1679666265]

Please stop talking he's actually going to retire. He's not, and it has nothing to do with the team "letting" him do so. His agent and the union have likely (and rightly) pointed out to him that walking away from approx. $23 million is beyond moronic.

 

If by some chance he were to retire, then I'd be perfectly fine with that - there are options out there this offseason we can use the extra money on. However, I agree that's an extremely unlikely scenario.

 

If he doesn't retire, I think you almost have to bring him back. The internal options (Coleman, McNutt, Cashner) probably aren't going to reproduce what Z is likely to give us next year unless he implodes further, so giving him away while eating the vast majority of his contract is a bad idea. Suspend him for the rest of the season if they feel it's necessary and then slot him back into the rotation next year and hope he regains his former glory so he'll be valuable at the deadline if we're out of it (or so that he'll help us win if we're in it).