Pujols signs with Angels pg 151

[Butterscup1679666578]

Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal

Source: #Cubs still involved in Pujols talks. Extent unclear. #MLB

[Guest]

Who are all these examples of old guys that Hendry doled out huge money to? Soriano and who else?

 

Hendry sucked because he didn't know what made good players good (valued the wrong qualities) and because the front office was stuck in the past in general with regard to running an organization.

 

He didn't suck because he was doling out $20M a year to 35 year olds.

 

I don't know how many more times this needs to be said, but I'll quote it just so it appears one more time.

 

The list of reasons the Cubs were bad the last two seasons, in order of importance:

 

 

1) The complete, horrific failure of the mid-2000s drafts.

2) The complete, horrific failure of the mid-2000s drafts.

3) The complete, horrific failure of the mid-2000s drafts.

...

...

...

998)The complete, horrific failure of the mid-2000s drafts.

999) Some bad luck in 2011

1000) Overpaying by a bit for some good but not elite free agents and contract extensions.

 

Pretty much.

[XZero771679666304]

Who are all these examples of old guys that Hendry doled out huge money to? Soriano and who else?

 

Hendry sucked because he didn't know what made good players good (valued the wrong qualities) and because the front office was stuck in the past in general with regard to running an organization.

 

He didn't suck because he was doling out $20M a year to 35 year olds.

 

I don't know how many more times this needs to be said, but I'll quote it just so it appears one more time.

 

The list of reasons the Cubs were bad the last two seasons, in order of importance:

 

 

1) The complete, horrific failure of the mid-2000s drafts.

2) The complete, horrific failure of the mid-2000s drafts.

3) The complete, horrific failure of the mid-2000s drafts.

...

...

...

998)The complete, horrific failure of the mid-2000s drafts.

999) Some bad luck in 2011

1000) Overpaying by a bit for some good but not elite free agents and contract extensions.

 

Or the need to fill most positions via free agency/trade because the drafts were so bad. Combine that with the fact that Hendry wasn't a very good talent evaluator and you get an inconsistent mess.

[davearm2]

Wrong.

 

There's an enormous chasm between "dream idealistic perfect world scenario" and "guy with obvious red flags".

 

I wouldn't dole out a contract that figures to be in the top 10 in MLB history to a guy with obvious red flags. Call me crazy I guess.

 

Besides which, people want to make Fielder an elite player (and pay him as such). He's just not elite, even if we ignore the red flags.

 

How is Fielder not elite? At worst he's one of the 3 best sluggers in the game today.

Fielder is one-dimensional. He's very good at that one dimension.

 

His all-around game is not in the elite category, for me anyway. His WAR numbers bear this out.

[erik316wttn]

Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal

Source: #Cubs still involved in Pujols talks. Extent unclear. #MLB

 

I'm sure if we were one of the top contenders for him it would have come out by now. We probably made him an offer, but like everyone else he's going to go with whoever throws the most money at him, and that probably won't be us.

[UMFan83]

Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal

Source: #Cubs still involved in Pujols talks. Extent unclear. #MLB

 

Been waiting for that one all morning.

[Guest]

Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal

Source: #Cubs still involved in Pujols talks. Extent unclear. #MLB

 

This is so weird...why would the Cubs even be bothering being involved when they're almost surely not going to match those years. And it's not like they can drive the bidding up any higher than the Marlins already have.

[erik316wttn]

Wrong.

 

There's an enormous chasm between "dream idealistic perfect world scenario" and "guy with obvious red flags".

 

I wouldn't dole out a contract that figures to be in the top 10 in MLB history to a guy with obvious red flags. Call me crazy I guess.

 

Besides which, people want to make Fielder an elite player (and pay him as such). He's just not elite, even if we ignore the red flags.

 

How is Fielder not elite? At worst he's one of the 3 best sluggers in the game today.

Fielder is one-dimensional. He's very good at that one dimension.

 

His all-around game is not in the elite category, for me anyway. His WAR numbers bear this out.

 

I will plead ignorance here and will defer to those who know sabermetrics better than I do, but I seem to recall that 1B is one of the least important defensive positions, correct? I'd be willing to trade whatever deficiencies he may have in the field for what he could bring with his bat.

[Banedon]

Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal

Source: #Cubs still involved in Pujols talks. Extent unclear. #MLB

 

This is so weird...why would the Cubs even be bothering being involved when they're almost surely not going to match those years. And it's not like they can drive the bidding up any higher than the Marlins already have.

 

What if the Cubs are offering significantly more AAV on a shorter contract? Like 4/$120 or 5/$150? Surely that'd keep them in the conversation.

[UMFan83]

Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal

Source: #Cubs still involved in Pujols talks. Extent unclear. #MLB

 

I'm sure if we were one of the top contenders for him it would have come out by now. We probably made him an offer, but like everyone else he's going to go with whoever throws the most money at him, and that probably won't be us.

 

Cubs FO has been stealth all winter. Who knows for sure if that's the case here

[erik316wttn]

Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal

Source: #Cubs still involved in Pujols talks. Extent unclear. #MLB

 

This is so weird...why would the Cubs even be bothering being involved when they're almost surely not going to match those years. And it's not like they can drive the bidding up any higher than the Marlins already have.

 

Pretty much what I'm thinking, too.

[Guest]

Fielder is one-dimensional. He's very good at that one dimension.

 

His all-around game is not in the elite category, for me anyway. His WAR numbers bear this out.

 

 

What is that dimension? Hitting? Because that's like a vast majority of a 1Bman's (hell, just about any position player's) value. He's great at getting on base and great at hitting for power.

[jersey cubs fan]

Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal

Source: #Cubs still involved in Pujols talks. Extent unclear. #MLB

 

This is so weird...why would the Cubs even be bothering being involved when they're almost surely not going to match those years. And it's not like they can drive the bidding up any higher than the Marlins already have.

 

Who knows where the actual figures for those deals are? It's not like the media pegs it exactly every time.

[bukie]

Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal

Source: #Cubs still involved in Pujols talks. Extent unclear. #MLB

 

This is so weird...why would the Cubs even be bothering being involved when they're almost surely not going to match those years. And it's not like they can drive the bidding up any higher than the Marlins already have.

 

What if the Cubs are offering significantly more AAV on a shorter contract? Like 4/$120 or 5/$150? Surely that'd keep them in the conversation.

I could easily see the Cubs at 7/200 with the Marlins and Cards at 10/220-225. All are competitive offers.

[Guest]

Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal

Source: #Cubs still involved in Pujols talks. Extent unclear. #MLB

 

This is so weird...why would the Cubs even be bothering being involved when they're almost surely not going to match those years. And it's not like they can drive the bidding up any higher than the Marlins already have.

 

What if the Cubs are offering significantly more AAV on a shorter contract? Like 4/$120 or 5/$150? Surely that'd keep them in the conversation.

 

That's kind of what I was thinking...if we're legitimately staying in the conversation we must be offering a huge AAV.

[CubColtPacer]

Wrong.

 

There's an enormous chasm between "dream idealistic perfect world scenario" and "guy with obvious red flags".

 

I wouldn't dole out a contract that figures to be in the top 10 in MLB history to a guy with obvious red flags. Call me crazy I guess.

 

Besides which, people want to make Fielder an elite player (and pay him as such). He's just not elite, even if we ignore the red flags.

 

How is Fielder not elite? At worst he's one of the 3 best sluggers in the game today.

Fielder is one-dimensional. He's very good at that one dimension.

 

His all-around game is not in the elite category, for me anyway. His WAR numbers bear this out.

 

I will plead ignorance here and will defer to those who know sabermetrics better than I do, but I seem to recall that 1B is one of the least important defensive positions, correct? I'd be willing to trade whatever deficiencies he may have in the field for what he could bring with his bat.

 

1B is the easiest position on the diamond defensively. That doesn't necessarily match up with its importance.

[ConstableRabbit]

Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal

Source: #Cubs still involved in Pujols talks. Extent unclear. #MLB

 

This is so weird...why would the Cubs even be bothering being involved when they're almost surely not going to match those years. And it's not like they can drive the bidding up any higher than the Marlins already have.

 

What if the Cubs are offering significantly more AAV on a shorter contract? Like 4/$120 or 5/$150? Surely that'd keep them in the conversation.

I guess I don't know why Pujols would take that, unless he's not about the total dollars and is more focused on being the highest paid guy in annual salary.

 

He'd have $150m through age 36-37, but assuming Miami is offering 10/$220m, I don't think Albert could get > $70, over the rest of his career. And that's not factoring in the security of a 10-year deal.

 

Or maybe he's not all about the money...

[Banedon]

Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal

Source: #Cubs still involved in Pujols talks. Extent unclear. #MLB

 

This is so weird...why would the Cubs even be bothering being involved when they're almost surely not going to match those years. And it's not like they can drive the bidding up any higher than the Marlins already have.

 

What if the Cubs are offering significantly more AAV on a shorter contract? Like 4/$120 or 5/$150? Surely that'd keep them in the conversation.

I guess I don't know why Pujols would take that, unless he's not about the total dollars and is more focused on being the highest paid guy in annual salary.

 

He'd have $150m through age 36-37, but assuming Miami is offering 10/$220m, I don't think Albert could get > $70, over the rest of his career. And that's not factoring in the security of a 10-year deal.

 

Or maybe he's not all about the money...

 

I agree that I'd think that kind of contract would work much better for Prince. But maybe Pujols has enough ego to think he can maintain his success well enough for another deal?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

The only conversation 4/120 keeps us in is "Hey, are you sure you don't want to make a serious offer?"

[Banedon]

The only conversation 4/120 keeps us in is "Hey, are you sure you don't want to make a serious offer?"

 

Yeah yeah, everyone else understood the point of the post.

[Butterscup1679666578]

Jon_Heyman Jon Heyman

#cardinals in meeting with puols right now

[Banedon]

@d_a_cameron: Marlins making an official announcement in media room at 11:15.

 

edit: Nevermind. It's the Reyes announcement.

[ConstableRabbit]

Ken_Rosenthal Ken Rosenthal

Source: #Cubs still involved in Pujols talks. Extent unclear. #MLB

 

This is so weird...why would the Cubs even be bothering being involved when they're almost surely not going to match those years. And it's not like they can drive the bidding up any higher than the Marlins already have.

 

What if the Cubs are offering significantly more AAV on a shorter contract? Like 4/$120 or 5/$150? Surely that'd keep them in the conversation.

I guess I don't know why Pujols would take that, unless he's not about the total dollars and is more focused on being the highest paid guy in annual salary.

 

He'd have $150m through age 36-37, but assuming Miami is offering 10/$220m, I don't think Albert could get > $70, over the rest of his career. And that's not factoring in the security of a 10-year deal.

 

Or maybe he's not all about the money...

 

I agree that I'd think that kind of contract would work much better for Prince. But maybe Pujols has enough ego to think he can maintain his success well enough for another deal?

 

That's a possibility, but even then: for how long does he think he can play at a high level? Age 40? To assume he'd get even equal money to that $220m deal he'd have to get $70m over his age 38, 39, and 40 seasons. $23m is on the pretty high end of what someone would pay an aging hitter. Manny was still productive and got less.

 

I just don't see him picking a medium-term deal over a long one, unless the shorter deal really blows him out of the water (e.g., 5/180).

[mul21]

And what will be annoying if the Marlins lose out on him is that they're going to throw all that money at Fielder now killing our chances of signing him.

You misspelled fortunate

 

Your point of view on this is just dumb.

I'd bet $100 you couldn't accurately explain my point of view on this.

 

Just the fact that you're so totally against giving either one of them any kind of contract is dumb. A shorter deal for a higher AAV is the way to go, but I will agree with you that going more than 6 years for either is a bad idea.

 

Your failure to acknowledge the lack of impact bats becoming available in the next year or two (which the Cubs are in desperate need of) is blinding you. If the Cubs don't get one of these two, the rebuild (and potential ceiling for how good the team can be) will take much longer than if there's still a giant hole at first base.

[BeerHere]

The 2011 Cubs did have some bad luck, but that roster was a .500 team at best. Everyone here knew it at the start of the season. I fully agree with your points regarding the draft but bad luck only served to expose the flaws of the team, it wasn't a primary driver.