Granderson to Yankees in 3-way trade? p. 20

[Backtobanks]

I'd offer Vitters, Carpenter, and a piece like Antigua.

 

I wouldn't. Are the Cubs a Curtis Granderson type player away from being a playoff caliber team? I don't think so. In fact, I'm not sure if replacing Bradley with Granderson is an upgrade at all. If he isn't the type of player that can turn this into a playoff team, I'd much rather save the talent and sign Cameron to a 1 year deal and see who is available next year that can improve the team.

 

All the rumors this offseason dictate that this team is handcuffed on payroll, so shedding the farm system of 3 of its better players for a guy who won't impact the won/loss record enough to make a difference just seems like continuing the viscious circle. And as much as someone can assure me that Granderson's 2 year plummet won't continue in 2010, he's not someone I can truly stand behind as the building block of the Cubs future.

 

The Cubs need to spend money more wisely moving forward. Instead of watching guys like Matt Holliday and Jason Bay find teams that aren't the Cubs and signing Jacque Jones and Jeromy Burnitz' instead, this team will continue to have a tough time being better than Cincinnati, Milwaukee and Houston, which is an absolute embarrassment.

In my mind, the deal would not be to get THE building block for the future. I mostly want to sell high on Vitters while we can still get some good value on him.

 

EDIT: I think I have changed my mind. I don't really want to trade any prospects right now. I think in 2010 we will be about .500 and 2011 should be pretty rough so I don't think any moves would vault us back into World Series discussions. I would rather build for 2012 or so.

 

I certainly wouldn't run out and bet the house on the Cubs winning the WS in 2010, but I can't see why you would think they will be about .500. Just about everybody was injured for a significant part of the year and certain players (Soto, Fontenot, Marmol, Harden, etc.) had disappointing seasons and they still finished 5 games over .500. This was in addition to the Cards playing way over their heads and acquiring Holliday and DeRosa to help out Pujols. I would think the Cubs would go into the season as the favorites (or co-favorites) to win the NL Central. Of course, some of that depends on moves made by teams in the next 3 months. I look forward to a healthy rebound by Soriano and Soto with more solid production from 2B (Baker or Baker/Fontenot).

[Cubs Fan Dan]

I think in 2010 we will be about .500 and 2011 should be pretty rough so I don't think any moves would vault us back into World Series discussions. I would rather build for 2012 or so.

 

I agree with this, the prophecies state that the Cubs will win the world series in 2012 and the world will end shortly after.

[NCCubFan]

Actually the end of the world prophesies for 2012 are wrong, because it's 2015 that the Cubs win the Series. Marty McFly told us so.

[Vanilla Ice]

I'd offer Vitters, Carpenter, and a piece like Antigua.

 

I wouldn't. Are the Cubs a Curtis Granderson type player away from being a playoff caliber team? I don't think so. In fact, I'm not sure if replacing Bradley with Granderson is an upgrade at all. If he isn't the type of player that can turn this into a playoff team, I'd much rather save the talent and sign Cameron to a 1 year deal and see who is available next year that can improve the team.

 

All the rumors this offseason dictate that this team is handcuffed on payroll, so shedding the farm system of 3 of its better players for a guy who won't impact the won/loss record enough to make a difference just seems like continuing the viscious circle. And as much as someone can assure me that Granderson's 2 year plummet won't continue in 2010, he's not someone I can truly stand behind as the building block of the Cubs future.

 

The Cubs need to spend money more wisely moving forward. Instead of watching guys like Matt Holliday and Jason Bay find teams that aren't the Cubs and signing Jacque Jones and Jeromy Burnitz' instead, this team will continue to have a tough time being better than Cincinnati, Milwaukee and Houston, which is an absolute embarrassment.

In my mind, the deal would not be to get THE building block for the future. I mostly want to sell high on Vitters while we can still get some good value on him.

 

EDIT: I think I have changed my mind. I don't really want to trade any prospects right now. I think in 2010 we will be about .500 and 2011 should be pretty rough so I don't think any moves would vault us back into World Series discussions. I would rather build for 2012 or so.

 

I certainly wouldn't run out and bet the house on the Cubs winning the WS in 2010, but I can't see why you would think they will be about .500. Just about everybody was injured for a significant part of the year and certain players (Soto, Fontenot, Marmol, Harden, etc.) had disappointing seasons and they still finished 5 games over .500. This was in addition to the Cards playing way over their heads and acquiring Holliday and DeRosa to help out Pujols. I would think the Cubs would go into the season as the favorites (or co-favorites) to win the NL Central. Of course, some of that depends on moves made by teams in the next 3 months. I look forward to a healthy rebound by Soriano and Soto with more solid production from 2B (Baker or Baker/Fontenot).

Ok, we may be a couple games over .500, but I cannot just see much improvement.

 

Harden will be gone so we can expect a bounceback from him. Wells will not be nearly so good next year which makes our 4-5 very shaky. If there are any injuries to our top 3, our rotation will suck. I would not count on much of a bounceback from Soriano, that is about who he is going to be. Lee will probably regress back to the mean. Counting on solid production from 2B is not a smart idea; Baker hit into tremendous good luck last year. I don't think our bullpen will be any better; Grabow is one of our primary set-up men. Our bench still blows so injuries will still hurt us a lot. It is just a old average team that got a year older.

[XZero771679666304]

I don't think the 2010 Cubs will be blowing anybody away, but the notion that they will be a middle of the division team is a bit silly, IMO. I am pretty sure it will be a two team race for the Central in 2010, and the Cubs will be one of those two.

 

At worst, I think the results will be about the same as last year. Lee will regress, but Aramis probably won't miss half the season again. Wells will regress, but I think Dempster will be better. Even if Marmol doesn't improve, he still won't blow as many saves as Gregg. Soto should improve a bit, and we almost have to get better production from 2B. Soriano probably won't ever be what he was even 2 years ago, but I don't think he will be as bad as he was in 2009. The defense should be better, assuming Hendry brings in an actual CF. If Castro ends up at SS and Theriot at 2B and Hendry were to sign, say, Mike Cameron, the defense would be great.

 

 

And while there won't be many moves, we have to wait and see what happens in the next couple months before we start declaring 2010 and 2011 to be forthcoming lean times.

[Backtobanks]

I'd offer Vitters, Carpenter, and a piece like Antigua.

 

I wouldn't. Are the Cubs a Curtis Granderson type player away from being a playoff caliber team? I don't think so. In fact, I'm not sure if replacing Bradley with Granderson is an upgrade at all. If he isn't the type of player that can turn this into a playoff team, I'd much rather save the talent and sign Cameron to a 1 year deal and see who is available next year that can improve the team.

 

All the rumors this offseason dictate that this team is handcuffed on payroll, so shedding the farm system of 3 of its better players for a guy who won't impact the won/loss record enough to make a difference just seems like continuing the viscious circle. And as much as someone can assure me that Granderson's 2 year plummet won't continue in 2010, he's not someone I can truly stand behind as the building block of the Cubs future.

 

The Cubs need to spend money more wisely moving forward. Instead of watching guys like Matt Holliday and Jason Bay find teams that aren't the Cubs and signing Jacque Jones and Jeromy Burnitz' instead, this team will continue to have a tough time being better than Cincinnati, Milwaukee and Houston, which is an absolute embarrassment.

In my mind, the deal would not be to get THE building block for the future. I mostly want to sell high on Vitters while we can still get some good value on him.

 

EDIT: I think I have changed my mind. I don't really want to trade any prospects right now. I think in 2010 we will be about .500 and 2011 should be pretty rough so I don't think any moves would vault us back into World Series discussions. I would rather build for 2012 or so.

 

I certainly wouldn't run out and bet the house on the Cubs winning the WS in 2010, but I can't see why you would think they will be about .500. Just about everybody was injured for a significant part of the year and certain players (Soto, Fontenot, Marmol, Harden, etc.) had disappointing seasons and they still finished 5 games over .500. This was in addition to the Cards playing way over their heads and acquiring Holliday and DeRosa to help out Pujols. I would think the Cubs would go into the season as the favorites (or co-favorites) to win the NL Central. Of course, some of that depends on moves made by teams in the next 3 months. I look forward to a healthy rebound by Soriano and Soto with more solid production from 2B (Baker or Baker/Fontenot).

Ok, we may be a couple games over .500, but I cannot just see much improvement.

 

Harden will be gone so we can expect a bounceback from him. Wells will not be nearly so good next year which makes our 4-5 very shaky. If there are any injuries to our top 3, our rotation will suck. I would not count on much of a bounceback from Soriano, that is about who he is going to be. Lee will probably regress back to the mean. Counting on solid production from 2B is not a smart idea; Baker hit into tremendous good luck last year. I don't think our bullpen will be any better; Grabow is one of our primary set-up men. Our bench still blows so injuries will still hurt us a lot. It is just a old average team that got a year older.

 

Soriano played on one leg for a good part of the season, so I expect a rebound season for him. I don't get all of the negative comments people post about DLee. Taking out the season he was injured (2006) and the season he was recovering from the wrist injury (2008) and his OPS for the last 5 seasons was .887, .860, .1080, .913, and .972. He has shown no signs of slowing down, so why the forecast of him digressing. Let's not forget ARam was injured for half the season. As for Baker, his career numbers: .270/.326/.455/.781 with 14

HR and 59 RBI. I'll take that out of a 2B. If Fontenot is still around and takes some AB against RHP, the production ought to be well above average for 2B. We don't know what the bench will look like for next year because players like Fox, Hoffpauir, Fuld, and Fontenot could be traded. As for the #4 & #5 starters being shaky, how many teams have solid #4 and #5 starters. I think Gorz, Wells, Shark, Marshall, Stevens, Caridad, and whoever they pick up or "discover" before the season should be able to cover the last two spots.

[Sammy Sofa]

How did DeRosa help Pujols? He was terrible with the Cardinals.

[Vanilla Ice]

I don't think the 2010 Cubs will be blowing anybody away, but the notion that they will be a middle of the division team is a bit silly, IMO. I am pretty sure it will be a two team race for the Central in 2010, and the Cubs will be one of those two.

 

At worst, I think the results will be about the same as last year. Lee will regress, but Aramis probably won't miss half the season again. Wells will regress, but I think Dempster will be better. Even if Marmol doesn't improve, he still won't blow as many saves as Gregg. Soto should improve a bit, and we almost have to get better production from 2B. Soriano probably won't ever be what he was even 2 years ago, but I don't think he will be as bad as he was in 2009. The defense should be better, assuming Hendry brings in an actual CF. If Castro ends up at SS and Theriot at 2B and Hendry were to sign, say, Mike Cameron, the defense would be great.

 

 

And while there won't be many moves, we have to wait and see what happens in the next couple months before we start declaring 2010 and 2011 to be forthcoming lean times.

Dempster probably won't be much better than a 3.65 ERA and 3.87 FIP next year. The bullpen problem is not really Marmol but everybody after the top 2. It is very shaky. Aramis will obviously be the biggest improvement, but that is really the only position that I expect to get much better (C, 2B, and LF might see smaller improvements) but CF, RF, 1B, SS will all be a tad worse IMO and the pitching will be much worse.

[inari]

 

I don't get all of the negative comments people post about DLee. Taking out the season he was injured (2006) and the season he was recovering from the wrist injury (2008) and his OPS for the last 5 seasons was .887, .860, .1080, .913, and .972. He has shown no signs of slowing down, so why the forecast of him digressing. L

 

I agree with you about Lee, but I don't see how you can call 2008 "the year he was recovering from injury" while leaving in his 2007.

[Backtobanks]

 

I don't get all of the negative comments people post about DLee. Taking out the season he was injured (2006) and the season he was recovering from the wrist injury (2008) and his OPS for the last 5 seasons was .887, .860, .1080, .913, and .972. He has shown no signs of slowing down, so why the forecast of him digressing. L

 

I agree with you about Lee, but I don't see how you can call 2008 "the year he was recovering from injury" while leaving in his 2007.

 

I guess I should have posted he has been the epitome of consistency for the last 10 years with the exception of a drop in power numbers from 2006-2008 because of a wrist injury. Now that he's completely healed, his power numbers rebounded.

[BCVM22]

According to Chicago Tribune columnist Phil Rogers, trade talks involving the Cubs and Detroit involving Tigers right-hander Edwin Jackson and center fielder Curtis Granderson likely will come to a conclusion at the winter meetings in Indianapolis. Rogers was vague about whether a deal would be consummated at that point.

 

The Cubs apparently are serious about Granderson, but not serious enough to give up reliever Carlos Marmol or young shortstop Starlin Castro. The Tigers might have more success asking for pitcher Andrew Cashner and third baseman Josh Vitters.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=tsn-tigerscubscontinueto&prov=tsn&type=lgns

 

Would you give up Cashner/Vitters/spare part(s) for Granderson?

[rocket]

According to Chicago Tribune columnist Phil Rogers, trade talks involving the Cubs and Detroit involving Tigers right-hander Edwin Jackson and center fielder Curtis Granderson likely will come to a conclusion at the winter meetings in Indianapolis. Rogers was vague about whether a deal would be consummated at that point.

 

The Cubs apparently are serious about Granderson, but not serious enough to give up reliever Carlos Marmol or young shortstop Starlin Castro. The Tigers might have more success asking for pitcher Andrew Cashner and third baseman Josh Vitters.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=tsn-tigerscubscontinueto&prov=tsn&type=lgns

 

Would you give up Cashner/Vitters/spare part(s) for Granderson?

 

For Granderson AND Jackson? Yes.

[inari]

I'm not sure how I feel about Jackson as a viable starter. I know he started off well last year, but I don't think he's all that good.

[Guest]

I don't think the 2010 Cubs will be blowing anybody away, but the notion that they will be a middle of the division team is a bit silly, IMO. I am pretty sure it will be a two team race for the Central in 2010, and the Cubs will be one of those two.

Unless things change drastically the Cubs will finish with @ a .500 record. If they get hit by a key injury, they will be way below .500. It doesn't matter where in the division they will be if they don't win the division. They are on their way down and with a bunch of bad contracts to boot.

[RedFlash]

Apparently the Tigers asked the Mariners for Brendan Morrow and Shawn Kelley for Edwin Jackson, FYI. Don't know if Jackson is worth that.

[Outshined_One]

According to Chicago Tribune columnist Phil Rogers, trade talks involving the Cubs and Detroit involving Tigers right-hander Edwin Jackson and center fielder Curtis Granderson likely will come to a conclusion at the winter meetings in Indianapolis. Rogers was vague about whether a deal would be consummated at that point.

 

The Cubs apparently are serious about Granderson, but not serious enough to give up reliever Carlos Marmol or young shortstop Starlin Castro. The Tigers might have more success asking for pitcher Andrew Cashner and third baseman Josh Vitters.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=tsn-tigerscubscontinueto&prov=tsn&type=lgns

 

Would you give up Cashner/Vitters/spare part(s) for Granderson?

 

I'd consider giving up one or the other with a low level prospect or two for Granderson. I'd think about giving up both for Granderson and Edwin Jackson, although I'm not a huge fan of Jackson.

[Backtobanks]

I don't think the 2010 Cubs will be blowing anybody away, but the notion that they will be a middle of the division team is a bit silly, IMO. I am pretty sure it will be a two team race for the Central in 2010, and the Cubs will be one of those two.

Unless things change drastically the Cubs will finish with @ a .500 record. If they get hit by a key injury, they will be way below .500. It doesn't matter where in the division they will be if they don't win the division. They are on their way down and with a bunch of bad contracts to boot.

 

With Soriano, Dempster, ARam, Soto, and Zambrano suffering major injuries and players like Harden and Marmol having bad years, they still ended up 5 games over .500. They certainly aren't the Yankees or Phillies, but they're not a .500 team either.

[rawaction]

 

With Soriano, Dempster, ARam, Soto, and Zambrano suffering major injuries and players like Harden and Marmol having bad years, they still ended up 5 games over .500. They certainly aren't the Yankees or Phillies, but they're not a .500 team either.

 

Soriano, ARam, and Zambrano have a history of injuries. So, saying the Cubs were over .500 with them being injured doesn't mean much, when it should have been reasonably expected that they would get injured anyway. They are a .500 team if they don't have contingency plans for when players get injured or underperform again.

[Backtobanks]

 

With Soriano, Dempster, ARam, Soto, and Zambrano suffering major injuries and players like Harden and Marmol having bad years, they still ended up 5 games over .500. They certainly aren't the Yankees or Phillies, but they're not a .500 team either.

 

Soriano, ARam, and Zambrano have a history of injuries. So, saying the Cubs were over .500 with them being injured doesn't mean much, when it should have been reasonably expected that they would get injured anyway. They are a .500 team if they don't have contingency plans for when players get injured or underperform again.

 

No team can have a contingency plan when they have the number of injuries the Cubs had. If you don't believe me ask the Mets. Last year ARam had 55% of the ABs that he averaged in the last 7 seasons, Soriano had 85% of the ABs that he averaged over the last 3 seasons when he has had "a history of injuries" (before that he played almost every game for quite a few years), and Zambrano pitched 80% of the innings he's averaged the 6 years before. Every team suffers injuries, but when they become excessive the Win-Loss stat is going to suffer. When your "regular" starting lineup is on the field 6-8 times out of 162 games, you aren't going to be a contender. In 2010, there's no reason to think ARam is going to miss half the season, Zambrano will miss 20% of his starts, Soriano will play most of the season on one leg, Dempster will break his toe hopping over the dugout railing, etc.

[jersey cubs fan]

 

With Soriano, Dempster, ARam, Soto, and Zambrano suffering major injuries and players like Harden and Marmol having bad years, they still ended up 5 games over .500. They certainly aren't the Yankees or Phillies, but they're not a .500 team either.

 

Soriano, ARam, and Zambrano have a history of injuries. So, saying the Cubs were over .500 with them being injured doesn't mean much, when it should have been reasonably expected that they would get injured anyway. They are a .500 team if they don't have contingency plans for when players get injured or underperform again.

 

No team can have a contingency plan when they have the number of injuries the Cubs had. If you don't believe me ask the Mets. Last year ARam had 55% of the ABs that he averaged in the last 7 seasons, Soriano had 85% of the ABs that he averaged over the last 3 seasons when he has had "a history of injuries" (before that he played almost every game for quite a few years), and Zambrano pitched 80% of the innings he's averaged the 6 years before. Every team suffers injuries, but when they become excessive the Win-Loss stat is going to suffer. When your "regular" starting lineup is on the field 6-8 times out of 162 games, you aren't going to be a contender. In 2010, there's no reason to think ARam is going to miss half the season, Zambrano will miss 20% of his starts, Soriano will play most of the season on one leg, Dempster will break his toe hopping over the dugout railing, etc.

 

Injury problems mount as guys get older and deal with more and more past injuries. And if there's one thing the Cubs didn't suffer from, it was a lack of Soriano on the field. When he did play, he sucked. More of that doesn't help.

 

And the best of that group, Ramirez, is a lock to get injured again. He always has and he always will. He's going to miss time.

[XZero771679666304]

 

Injury problems mount as guys get older and deal with more and more past injuries. And if there's one thing the Cubs didn't suffer from, it was a lack of Soriano on the field. When he did play, he sucked. More of that doesn't help.

 

And the best of that group, Ramirez, is a lock to get injured again. He always has and he always will. He's going to miss time.

 

 

True, but Ramirez doesn't typically miss half the season, or even a quarter of it. And I think a good part (well, at least some) of Soriano's suckitude had to do with the fact he was playing on a bad leg most of the season. He's not ever going to be the player he was even a couple of years ago, but I think he'll be better in 2010.

[CubColtPacer]

 

With Soriano, Dempster, ARam, Soto, and Zambrano suffering major injuries and players like Harden and Marmol having bad years, they still ended up 5 games over .500. They certainly aren't the Yankees or Phillies, but they're not a .500 team either.

 

Soriano, ARam, and Zambrano have a history of injuries. So, saying the Cubs were over .500 with them being injured doesn't mean much, when it should have been reasonably expected that they would get injured anyway. They are a .500 team if they don't have contingency plans for when players get injured or underperform again.

 

No team can have a contingency plan when they have the number of injuries the Cubs had. If you don't believe me ask the Mets. Last year ARam had 55% of the ABs that he averaged in the last 7 seasons, Soriano had 85% of the ABs that he averaged over the last 3 seasons when he has had "a history of injuries" (before that he played almost every game for quite a few years), and Zambrano pitched 80% of the innings he's averaged the 6 years before. Every team suffers injuries, but when they become excessive the Win-Loss stat is going to suffer. When your "regular" starting lineup is on the field 6-8 times out of 162 games, you aren't going to be a contender. In 2010, there's no reason to think ARam is going to miss half the season, Zambrano will miss 20% of his starts, Soriano will play most of the season on one leg, Dempster will break his toe hopping over the dugout railing, etc.

 

Injury problems mount as guys get older and deal with more and more past injuries. And if there's one thing the Cubs didn't suffer from, it was a lack of Soriano on the field. When he did play, he sucked. More of that doesn't help.

 

And the best of that group, Ramirez, is a lock to get injured again. He always has and he always will. He's going to miss time.

 

I wouldn't call it a lock that he's going to miss time...at least not a significant amount. He played 157 games in 2006 and played 149 in 08 (and 4 of the 13 games he missed were the Cubs resting starters the final week of the season after they clinched).

 

So two out of the last four years he hasn't hit the DL at all. And even if he misses more time like he did in 05 or 07 and plays in the 120-140 game range, that still means he's very, very likely to play 40-50 more games than he did this year. That's a quarter of the season that was lost at the position that the Cubs are most vulnerable at. Even if other players on the team have serious injuries next year, having Ramirez be likely back for a much bigger percentage of the season will be a big help to the team.

[jersey cubs fan]

 

Injury problems mount as guys get older and deal with more and more past injuries. And if there's one thing the Cubs didn't suffer from, it was a lack of Soriano on the field. When he did play, he sucked. More of that doesn't help.

 

And the best of that group, Ramirez, is a lock to get injured again. He always has and he always will. He's going to miss time.

 

 

True, but Ramirez doesn't typically miss half the season, or even a quarter of it. And I think a good part (well, at least some) of Soriano's suckitude had to do with the fact he was playing on a bad leg most of the season. He's not ever going to be the player he was even a couple of years ago, but I think he'll be better in 2010.

 

He doesn't typically miss half the season, but he misses time and he was on the wrong side of 30 already. And since he's already had this shoulder injury, that's just another weak spot on his body to worry about next season. Also, while it may be impossible to plan for everything that could go wrong, having Aaron Miles as the primary backup at third base (and then having to go with Fontenot there) was a huge mistake, and unless they do something about the backup situations they will struggle again when he goes down. And now that they are expecting Wells, Marshall, Gorzo and Samardzija to account for 3 rotation spots, they won't have much to fall back on when one of the big guys inevitably gets banged up.

[Guest]

 

Injury problems mount as guys get older and deal with more and more past injuries. And if there's one thing the Cubs didn't suffer from, it was a lack of Soriano on the field. When he did play, he sucked. More of that doesn't help.

 

And the best of that group, Ramirez, is a lock to get injured again. He always has and he always will. He's going to miss time.

 

 

True, but Ramirez doesn't typically miss half the season, or even a quarter of it. And I think a good part (well, at least some) of Soriano's suckitude had to do with the fact he was playing on a bad leg most of the season. He's not ever going to be the player he was even a couple of years ago, but I think he'll be better in 2010.

 

He doesn't typically miss half the season, but he misses time and he was on the wrong side of 30 already. And since he's already had this shoulder injury, that's just another weak spot on his body to worry about next season. Also, while it may be impossible to plan for everything that could go wrong, having Aaron Miles as the primary backup at third base (and then having to go with Fontenot there) was a huge mistake, and unless they do something about the backup situations they will struggle again when he goes down. And now that they are expecting Wells, Marshall, Gorzo and Samardzija to account for 3 rotation spots, they won't have much to fall back on when one of the big guys inevitably gets banged up.

The Cubs are at a choice point. Spend big (dollars and prospects) to make a run or let things play out. It appears to me that they are going to let things play out. Crazy things always happen in baseball but I can't see them contending next year if they stay on the current course.

[jersey cubs fan]

The Cubs are at a choice point. Spend big (dollars and prospects) to make a run or let things play out. It appears to me that they are going to let things play out. Crazy things always happen in baseball but I can't see them contending next year if they stay on the current course.

 

I could see them contending, I just think they are doing a horrible job of maximizing their odds.