2009 Bulls Offseason Thread

[Tyrant]

Gordon was great at creating opportunities for himself. However, he was lousy at creating opportunities for anybody else. So, pretty much the entire league knew that once the ball went into Gordon's hands on the offensive end, it wasn't going anywhere else but towards the basket.

 

You sure about that? Bulls' passing ratings:

 

Rose: 9.1

Hinrich: 6.8

Gordon 4.8

Deng: 3.2

Noah: 2.9

Salmons: 2.9

Ty. Thomas: 0.7

[bukie]

Gordon was great at creating opportunities for himself. However, he was lousy at creating opportunities for anybody else. So, pretty much the entire league knew that once the ball went into Gordon's hands on the offensive end, it wasn't going anywhere else but towards the basket.

 

You sure about that? Bulls' passing ratings:

 

Rose: 9.1

Hinrich: 6.8

Gordon 4.8

Deng: 3.2

Noah: 2.9

Salmons: 2.9

Ty. Thomas: 0.7

4.8 for a guard is generally not good. 71st in the NBA last year, which, considering 29 teams, is on average worse than almost 3 players per team.

 

Being 3rd on the Bulls just reiterates the point that the Bulls were generally not a good passing team.

[Tyrant]

4.8 for a guard is generally not good. 71st in the NBA last year, which, considering 29 teams, is on average worse than almost 3 players per team.

 

It's not good for a point guard, no. But considering that Gordon's primary duty is to score, it's fine. He's about an average passer for a shooting guard. That doesn't jive with your implication that he shot the ball every single time he touched it.

[wolf stansson]

This is a fantastic move.

 

The cap space could facilitate a big trade in-season. It forces Derrick's development as a late-game closer and now he'll have the ball in his hands even more.

[bukie]

Oh sure, there were games where he did contribute to the passing.

 

There were also games where he put up lines of 42-0-1, 37-2-2, 39-2-3, and 43-3-3. He won't shoot it "every" time he gets the ball, but more often than not, it's going at the basket. You can say it's his job as a shooting guard, but most of the good shooting guards in the NBA are a lot less one-dimensional than Ben Gordon.

[rawaction]

Oh sure, there were games where he did contribute to the passing.

 

There were also games where he put up lines of 42-0-1, 37-2-2, 39-2-3, and 43-3-3. He won't shoot it "every" time he gets the ball, but more often than not, it's going at the basket. You can say it's his job as a shooting guard, but most of the good shooting guards in the NBA are a lot less one-dimensional than Ben Gordon.

 

Well isn't it pretty natural that if you score 40 points in a game that you aren't going to get a bunch of assists too? I mean he's not Lebron where he has the ball in his hand 100% of every possession.

 

For his role on the team, those are great lines. The Bulls have potential for rebounding at every other position. And nobody on the team can pass. That doesn't excuse him, but the point is when you score 40 and don't have the ball constantly, you aren't going to get huge assist numbers.

[Soul]

Oh sure, there were games where he did contribute to the passing.

 

There were also games where he put up lines of 42-0-1, 37-2-2, 39-2-3, and 43-3-3. He won't shoot it "every" time he gets the ball, but more often than not, it's going at the basket. You can say it's his job as a shooting guard, but most of the good shooting guards in the NBA are a lot less one-dimensional than Ben Gordon.

 

Yes, but at that one dimension, Gordon is a lot better than many other shooting guards.

 

I'm not saying I'm devastated he's gone, because I'm not. But the man did have value, and that's why he found work readily elsewhere at pretty good money.

[Exile on Waveland]

At the time, there were rumors the Pacers wanted to trade up in the draft to get Ben Gordon. I was very, very high on him and hoped that would happen. To this day, I'm still unsure if I was correct in how good he would be.

 

On Deng, I really don't think many people besides Bulls fans thought he would ever be much more than the 18/8 guy he was once.

[Flames24Rulz]

At the time, there were rumors the Pacers wanted to trade up in the draft to get Ben Gordon. I was very, very high on him and hoped that would happen. To this day, I'm still unsure if I was correct in how good he would be.

 

On Deng, I really don't think many people besides Bulls fans thought he would ever be much more than the 18/8 guy he was once.

 

The only reason many Bulls fans thought that way about Deng was because management basically forced that belief upon the fans.

[Flames24Rulz]

This is a fantastic move.

 

The cap space could facilitate a big trade in-season. It forces Derrick's development as a late-game closer and now he'll have the ball in his hands even more.

 

I have little to no confidence in this current regime to step in and make any trade of high significance. The Salmons and Miller deal was a nice little trade but I don't think Paxson has what it takes to ship out some of his pieces to land a big-name player. We've been talking about getting a star player ever since Paxson became the GM in 2003. It's 2009 and we still haven't made a big splash. Color me unconvinced that we can land a big-name player.

[Soul]

This is a fantastic move.

 

The cap space could facilitate a big trade in-season. It forces Derrick's development as a late-game closer and now he'll have the ball in his hands even more.

 

I have little to no confidence in this current regime to step in and make any trade of high significance. The Salmons and Miller deal was a nice little trade but I don't think Paxson has what it takes to ship out some of his pieces to land a big-name player. We've been talking about getting a star player ever since Paxson became the GM in 2003. It's 2009 and we still haven't made a big splash. Color me unconvinced that we can land a big-name player.

 

I know. I'm not convinced either. Although having Rose should be a bit more of an enticement for free agents to want to come here.

 

I'm still of the mind that "I'll believe it when I see it."

[Flames24Rulz]

This is a fantastic move.

 

The cap space could facilitate a big trade in-season. It forces Derrick's development as a late-game closer and now he'll have the ball in his hands even more.

 

I have little to no confidence in this current regime to step in and make any trade of high significance. The Salmons and Miller deal was a nice little trade but I don't think Paxson has what it takes to ship out some of his pieces to land a big-name player. We've been talking about getting a star player ever since Paxson became the GM in 2003. It's 2009 and we still haven't made a big splash. Color me unconvinced that we can land a big-name player.

 

I know. I'm not convinced either. Although having Rose should be a bit more of an enticement for free agents to want to come here.

 

I'm still of the mind that "I'll believe it when I see it."

 

Well the only guy that I think will be moved before or during the season will be Amare. I think Bosh is going to end up in NY and I think Wade will more than likely re-sign with the Heat. So that leaves Paxson with the option of trading some of his glorified pieces for Amare or more than likely, we'll have to settle for a couple of free agents from the next crop of players. At least that's how I view it.

 

Thankfully the second and third tier of players in next year's class is world's better than that free agent class in 1999.

[hawkeyecub]

This is a fantastic move.

 

The cap space could facilitate a big trade in-season. It forces Derrick's development as a late-game closer and now he'll have the ball in his hands even more.

 

I have little to no confidence in this current regime to step in and make any trade of high significance. The Salmons and Miller deal was a nice little trade but I don't think Paxson has what it takes to ship out some of his pieces to land a big-name player. We've been talking about getting a star player ever since Paxson became the GM in 2003. It's 2009 and we still haven't made a big splash. Color me unconvinced that we can land a big-name player.

 

I know. I'm not convinced either. Although having Rose should be a bit more of an enticement for free agents to want to come here.

 

I'm still of the mind that "I'll believe it when I see it."

 

Well the only guy that I think will be moved before or during the season will be Amare. I think Bosh is going to end up in NY and I think Wade will more than likely re-sign with the Heat. So that leaves Paxson with the option of trading some of his glorified pieces for Amare or more than likely, we'll have to settle for a couple of free agents from the next crop of players. At least that's how I view it.

 

Thankfully the second and third tier of players in next year's class is world's better than that free agent class in 1999.

 

I think Wade is likely staying in Miami also. Joe Johnson would be a great fit for the Bulls and as some have suggested, likely a better fit than Wade.

[rawaction]

Joe Johnson would be a wonderful pickup.

[Magnetic Curses]

i don't think reinsdorf gives a toss about the bulls success and i certainly don't think he would give the okay to acquire a high profile superstar. i think he had his fill of superstars back in the 90's.

[Flames24Rulz]

i don't think reinsdorf gives a toss about the bulls success and i certainly don't think he would give the okay to acquire a high profile superstar. i think he had his fill of superstars back in the 90's.

 

I wish I could defend Reinsdorf but I share your belief too.

 

I echo the Johnson sentiments. He's a taller version of BG that can get to the rim easier and can get to the line more than Gordon can. He'd be a great get.

[wolf stansson]

He's a taller version of BG that can get to the rim easier and can get to the line more than Gordon can. He'd be a great get.

So you're saying he's black, a shooting guard and has range.

 

 

He can also pass better, play markedly better defense and "taller version" undersells it. He's 6 inches taller. They really aren't very similar. I've been saying for a year now. I'd love Joe Johnson.

[Derwood]

I don't know who Jon Greenberg is, but no Jon, just no

 

http://espn.go.com/chicago/story?columnist=greenberg_jon&id=4302520

[Flames24Rulz]

He's a taller version of BG that can get to the rim easier and can get to the line more than Gordon can. He'd be a great get.

So you're saying he's black, a shooting guard and has range.

 

 

He can also pass better, play markedly better defense and "taller version" undersells it. He's 6 inches taller. They really aren't very similar. I've been saying for a year now. I'd love Joe Johnson.

 

Well sure he can, I just used a couple of examples. I agree with you.

[imb]

joe johnson is underrated because he played in a third-rate school in a second-rate basketball conference and has toiled with the Hawks for the last few years. I know I'm not breaking any news here, but he's really good.

[DivineBovine]

Couldn't agree more. He can pour it in, but he's very one dimensional. It was often infuriating to watch him get fixated on shooting like Soriano gets fixated on swinging. He can't create his own shot off the dribble to save his life, and still can't play D. If he could train himself to play like Reggie Miller and shoot off screens, he might be more valuable, but I don't think that's BG. And for this reason, he was not great with Rose. He kept trying to create off the dribble, which negated much or Rose's strength which is driving to the basket and creating.

 

Almost every single thing you said is a vague generalization about Ben Gordon that isn't backed up by any evidence. For example, you said he can't create his own shot, but he also doesn't know how to come off screens. Yet 85 percent of his shots were jumpers last season and he efficiently averaged 21 ppg. 21 points on 16 shots a game. That's very good.

 

I'd much rather they keep Hinrich than Gordon

 

This is dumb. This is like saying, "I'd rather keep Ryan Theriot than Aramis Ramirez." Why would you "rather they keep" a worse basketball player?

 

Ben Gordon had two yrs to negotiate a contract, and refused and/or ignore the Bulls offer. So don't blame Gordon leaving on Deng. Deng wised up and took the offer, BG didn't.

 

No. Last summer, Gordon was mulling over an offer from the Bulls and they gave him a deadline to accept it (why they gave him a deadline, I have no idea). Shortly after their arbitrary deadline had passed, Gordon came back to accept the offer and Reinsdorf yanked it off the table.

 

 

Basketball is not like baseball where you can analyze stats forever. I'm going by what I've seen.

 

I'm not saying Gordon cannot score. But a lot of guys can hit jumpers. Guys who can get hot and drain jumper after jumper, but can't handle the ball or play defense are pretty common in the NBA. They are role players. Watch how many times the Bulls needed a bucket in a tight game and Gordon got the ball. The results weren't good. He made very few game winning shots. When double teamed or when the team knew he was getting the ball, he could not score. At 6 foot 3 or so, he is a below average to average ball handler, and that won't improve at this point. I'd trust him to take an open shot to win a game more than anyone on the team, but I would never want him to get the ball and try to create a shot. He cannot score off the dribble. And that's fine, if he realized it. But he kept trying to force offense when it wasn't there. When the other team tried to stop him, it wasn't difficult to do so. How many times have we seen him get stuffed or stripped when the game was one the line. I saw it too many times.

 

Cash is tighter in the NBA now. The salary cap is going down, and teams are cautious with money. Give the team a chance and see what they come up with. Comparing the Gordon with Deng is also unfair. Luol has been injured, and I'm sure the Bulls wouldn't have given him that deal if they knew he was going to spend so much time injured. But when they signed him, plenty of teams wanted Deng, and everyone around the league uniformly thought that Luol was more valuable than Gordon.

 

Comparing Hinrich to Theriot and Gordon to Aramis is even dumber. Hinrich and Gordon are different types of players, and plenty of teams would love to have Kirk as their PG. Hinrich does absolutely everything better than Gordon other than shoot the ball. EVERYTHING, and he isn't a bad shooter. He is very tradeable, and I'm fine with letting him go if the right offer comes along. I think they can get something good for him.

[RedFlash]

I'd much rather they keep Hinrich than Gordon

 

This is dumb. This is like saying, "I'd rather keep Ryan Theriot than Aramis Ramirez." Why would you "rather they keep" a worse basketball player?

 

Because maybe, just maybe Hinrich is the better BASKETBALL player then Gordon. BG is one heckva scorer, no doubt, but there is more to basketball then just scoring, and BG refuses to do anything other then score. So yes as a BASKETBALL player, Hinrich is better then Gordon.

 

Ben Gordon had two yrs to negotiate a contract, and refused and/or ignore the Bulls offer. So don't blame Gordon leaving on Deng. Deng wised up and took the offer, BG didn't.

 

No. Last summer, Gordon was mulling over an offer from the Bulls and they gave him a deadline to accept it (why they gave him a deadline, I have no idea). Shortly after their arbitrary deadline had passed, Gordon came back to accept the offer and Reinsdorf yanked it off the table.

 

So the Bulls decided they didn't want to be held hostage by it's own player and you think it is their fault for pulling their offer? BG had more then enough time to decide if the offer was legit, and good enough for his signature. And it is in the team's rights to put a timetable on a player to sign a contract or not. If Gordon was a better player, then no timetable would have been set, but let's face facts, BG will a great scorer, is no All-Star, no All-Defensive team, etc, etc, he doesn't get the same rights as say a legit star like a Wade, James, Anthony, etc, etc. Sorry, you may think that is cheap by the Bulls, I think it's smart business decision, and quite frankly BG did the right thing and hesitated on the offer, thus the Bulls are not handcuff with two bad contracts and (let's face it, if BG took the deal, it would have been a horrible deal) it leaves the Bulls in position to be major players in next yr's class.

 

It is BG's fault for having to leave Chicago, not the Bulls.

[Magnetic Curses]

it's simple, now. the bulls upper management has to find a guy who can fill it up without arousing suspicion in their owner. they're in a tough spot. if they aren't successful, they get the axe, but they don't really have the okay to try to make the next step. they're essentially trapped between heaven and earth like in the serpent and the rainbow.

[Soul]

it's simple, now. the bulls upper management has to find a guy who can fill it up without arousing suspicion in their owner. they're in a tough spot. if they aren't successful, they get the axe, but they don't really have the okay to try to make the next step. they're essentially trapped between heaven and earth like in the serpent and the rainbow.

 

My guess is, they won't do it. And we'll struggle to score next year because of it. At least, to a greater degree.

 

We might have better overall team defense though. And there are some guys who I think can put in even better seasons, like Noah, who impressed me more last year. A full season of Salmons will be interesting, too.

 

I don't think all is lost just because our 6th man shooter is gone. Obviously the team will have to approach games differently, unless they do manage to pick up an outside threat.

[Guest]

Bosh and Joe Johnson would be sexy.