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Posted

Freak injury, common injury: does it matter?

 

The bottom line is that it is statistically probable that Milton Bradley will miss a bunch of games next year. It's also entirely possible that he will miss none. I'm hoping for the later, expecting a controlled version of former (i.e he misses 30-40 games). Hopefully, those games are in the dog days and he is fine by October.

 

It's long odds to expect a healthy Bradley. But that doesn't mean he won't make significant contributions when he's in there. Overall I like the pick up. But we still don't have a "feared" hitter in the lineup. We simply are good and deep.

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Posted
Freak injury, common injury: does it matter?

 

The bottom line is that it is statistically probable that Milton Bradley will miss a bunch of games next year. It's also entirely possible that he will miss none. I'm hoping for the later, expecting a controlled version of former (i.e he misses 30-40 games). Hopefully, those games are in the dog days and he is fine by October.

 

It's long odds to expect a healthy Bradley. But that doesn't mean he won't make significant contributions when he's in there. Overall I like the pick up. But we still don't have a "feared" hitter in the lineup. We simply are good and deep.

 

Hmmm....I think if you polled around the league you would find that ARam is at least close to being "feared" or whatever. Teams certainly would rather not see him coming up in the 9th with a 1 run lead and a couple runners on.

Posted
Freak injury, common injury: does it matter?

 

The bottom line is that it is statistically probable that Milton Bradley will miss a bunch of games next year. It's also entirely possible that he will miss none. I'm hoping for the later, expecting a controlled version of former (i.e he misses 30-40 games). Hopefully, those games are in the dog days and he is fine by October.

 

It's long odds to expect a healthy Bradley. But that doesn't mean he won't make significant contributions when he's in there. Overall I like the pick up. But we still don't have a "feared" hitter in the lineup. We simply are good and deep.

 

Hmmm....I think if you polled around the league you would find that ARam is at least close to being "feared" or whatever. Teams certainly would rather not see him coming up in the 9th with a 1 run lead and a couple runners on.

God... I can't wait for those moments and for the season to start!

Posted
I know Lee has sort of been the staple of the #3 hole the last several years, but it's high time to move him down in the order, IMO.

 

I've been arguing for a few years now that Lee is an ideal #2 hitter, particularly if Soriano is ousted from the lead-off.

 

Ironically, the way the current club is constructed, I look at Brian Roberts once again as the perfect compliment to this team.

Posted
I know Lee has sort of been the staple of the #3 hole the last several years, but it's high time to move him down in the order, IMO.

 

I've been arguing for a few years now that Lee is an ideal #2 hitter, particularly if Soriano is ousted from the lead-off.

 

Ironically, the way the current club is constructed, I look at Brian Roberts once again as the perfect compliment to this team.

 

I would think the other way. If Soriano is in the leadoff spot, Lee makes perfect sense in that spot. If a guy like Theriot or Fontenot is leading off, I'd be afraid of Lee shattering the record for GIDPs. IF Soriano is going to continue leading off and they really want to focus on L-R lineup balance, how about somehting like this:

 

Soriano

Lee

Bradley

Ramirez

Fontenot

Soto

Theriot

P

Fukudome

Posted
I know Lee has sort of been the staple of the #3 hole the last several years, but it's high time to move him down in the order, IMO.

 

I've been arguing for a few years now that Lee is an ideal #2 hitter, particularly if Soriano is ousted from the lead-off.

 

Ironically, the way the current club is constructed, I look at Brian Roberts once again as the perfect compliment to this team.

How many double plays are you willing to stomach?

Posted
I know Lee has sort of been the staple of the #3 hole the last several years, but it's high time to move him down in the order, IMO.

 

I've been arguing for a few years now that Lee is an ideal #2 hitter, particularly if Soriano is ousted from the lead-off.

 

Ironically, the way the current club is constructed, I look at Brian Roberts once again as the perfect compliment to this team.

 

I would think the other way. If Soriano is in the leadoff spot, Lee makes perfect sense in that spot. If a guy like Theriot or Fontenot is leading off, I'd be afraid of Lee shattering the record for GIDPs. IF Soriano is going to continue leading off and they really want to focus on L-R lineup balance, how about somehting like this:

 

Soriano

Lee

Bradley

Ramirez

Fontenot

Soto

Theriot

P

Fukudome

 

Oh God, no thanks.

Posted
I know Lee has sort of been the staple of the #3 hole the last several years, but it's high time to move him down in the order, IMO.

 

I've been arguing for a few years now that Lee is an ideal #2 hitter, particularly if Soriano is ousted from the lead-off.

 

Ironically, the way the current club is constructed, I look at Brian Roberts once again as the perfect compliment to this team.

 

I would think the other way. If Soriano is in the leadoff spot, Lee makes perfect sense in that spot. If a guy like Theriot or Fontenot is leading off, I'd be afraid of Lee shattering the record for GIDPs. IF Soriano is going to continue leading off and they really want to focus on L-R lineup balance, how about somehting like this:

 

Soriano

Lee

Bradley

Ramirez

Fontenot

Soto

Theriot

P

Fukudome

 

Oh God, no thanks.

 

I think I'd rather do something like this, assuming Soriano is leading off against rhs

 

Soriano

Fukudome/Fontenot

Ramirez

Bradley

Lee

Soto

Fukudome/Fontenot

Theriot

P

 

Against LHers

 

Soriano

Lee

Bradley

Ramirez

Soto

Miles

Johnson

Theriot

P

Posted
I'm going to do this even though it's against my better judgment..

 

When I was young my mother would tell me: "Never argue with unreasonable people; because you can't reason with them". But here I go anyways.

 

A freak accident should be defined as: An accident that occurs when you would otherwise NOT expect one to occur.

1. D. Lee breaking his wrist: No way anyone would not expect that to happen after his hand, wrist were hit like they were. Take 100 people in the exact same situation and probably 80% it would have resulted in a break.

2. Any pitcher who has arm issues: The arm issue would be a result of the violent movement of the arm when throwing a baseball (arm should include elbow, shoulder and so on).

3. Mark Prior taking a line drive to the elbow; of course he got hurt, nothing freaky about that. The fact he got hit could be called a "freak" thing because players don't often get hit with baseballs when on defense. However his being injured once hit; nothing freaky about that. Anytime someone is hit with a hard object going over 100mph I would have to say an accident is expected.

4. A player swinging a bat; you can't break down every injury that could be expected; but side (oblique’s), back, wrists, fingers, thumbs and possibly hips could become injured during this process. Nothing freaky about that, because one could reasonably expect it to happen.

THE LIST GOES ON.....

 

I would have to say anyone tearing an ACL when being held back is not something you would reasonably (keyword) expect to happen. Take 100 people in the exact same situation and a LOT less than 80% would end in an ACL tear. That to me makes it a freak accident.

Sammy Sosa sneezing and hurting his back (out 30 days); to me that is a freak accident; you just don't NORMALLY expect someone to miss 30 days because of a sneeze.

The sneeze analogy perfectly illustrates what I've been trying to explain. People sneeze all the darn time, and nothing comes of it.

 

Just like as dextermorgan has explained, professional baseball players step awkwardly on their leg all the darn time, and nothing comes of it.

 

So if throwing your back out sneezing is a freak injury (since you've sneezed countless times with no injury occurring), then by the same logic, tearing your ACL stepping awkwardly is also a freak injury (since you've stepped awkwardly countless times with no injury occurring).

 

Except people almost never get hurt sneezing. That's why it's a freak injury. People get hurt by twisting their legs. You're leaving out that very huge difference. Also, I'd say that there's a pretty big difference between a sneeze and a twisting of your leg. One is a natural thing that the body does by itself. The other is something that your body is put through due to a mistake.

Your definition of a freak injury is: something people almost never get hurt doing (reference the bolded statement above).

 

You've told us over and over and over again how baseball players step awkwardly on their leg all the time without getting hurt.

 

Therefore by your own definition of the term, when a baseball player gets hurt stepping awkwardly, it's a freak injury.

 

That's not my definiton at all. I don't know where you're getting that.

 

My definition of a freak injury is: an injury sustained in a freak situation that you can not reasonably expect to occur/happen again.

 

You can reasonably expect that an athlete might eventually twist his leg or step on it funny.

 

You can't reasonably expect a player to get hit with a line drive in the elbow again

 

You could slip and twist your legs (enough to force some kind of injury) mutiple times in a season and it wouldn't really be a surprise. It wouldn't be expected, but it wouldn't be shocking that it happened. If someone broke their elbow by getting hit with a baseball going over 100 MPH twice in the same lifetime, it would be shocking... or a "freak" occurrence.

Posted
I'm going to do this even though it's against my better judgment..

 

When I was young my mother would tell me: "Never argue with unreasonable people; because you can't reason with them". But here I go anyways.

 

A freak accident should be defined as: An accident that occurs when you would otherwise NOT expect one to occur.

1. D. Lee breaking his wrist: No way anyone would not expect that to happen after his hand, wrist were hit like they were. Take 100 people in the exact same situation and probably 80% it would have resulted in a break.

2. Any pitcher who has arm issues: The arm issue would be a result of the violent movement of the arm when throwing a baseball (arm should include elbow, shoulder and so on).

3. Mark Prior taking a line drive to the elbow; of course he got hurt, nothing freaky about that. The fact he got hit could be called a "freak" thing because players don't often get hit with baseballs when on defense. However his being injured once hit; nothing freaky about that. Anytime someone is hit with a hard object going over 100mph I would have to say an accident is expected.

4. A player swinging a bat; you can't break down every injury that could be expected; but side (oblique’s), back, wrists, fingers, thumbs and possibly hips could become injured during this process. Nothing freaky about that, because one could reasonably expect it to happen.

THE LIST GOES ON.....

 

I would have to say anyone tearing an ACL when being held back is not something you would reasonably (keyword) expect to happen. Take 100 people in the exact same situation and a LOT less than 80% would end in an ACL tear. That to me makes it a freak accident.

Sammy Sosa sneezing and hurting his back (out 30 days); to me that is a freak accident; you just don't NORMALLY expect someone to miss 30 days because of a sneeze.

The sneeze analogy perfectly illustrates what I've been trying to explain. People sneeze all the darn time, and nothing comes of it.

 

Just like as dextermorgan has explained, professional baseball players step awkwardly on their leg all the darn time, and nothing comes of it.

 

So if throwing your back out sneezing is a freak injury (since you've sneezed countless times with no injury occurring), then by the same logic, tearing your ACL stepping awkwardly is also a freak injury (since you've stepped awkwardly countless times with no injury occurring).

 

Except people almost never get hurt sneezing. That's why it's a freak injury. People get hurt by twisting their legs. You're leaving out that very huge difference. Also, I'd say that there's a pretty big difference between a sneeze and a twisting of your leg. One is a natural thing that the body does by itself. The other is something that your body is put through due to a mistake.

Your definition of a freak injury is: something people almost never get hurt doing (reference the bolded statement above).

 

You've told us over and over and over again how baseball players step awkwardly on their leg all the time without getting hurt.

 

Therefore by your own definition of the term, when a baseball player gets hurt stepping awkwardly, it's a freak injury.

 

That's not my definiton at all. I don't know where you're getting that.

"people almost never get hurt sneezing. That's why it's a freak injury." -- dextermorgan

Posted

Yes but who has ever heard of somebody hurting themself be sneezing? People get hurt by twisting your legs up all the time. If you want to get technical about it, you're right, maybe it wasn't a freak injury when Sosa hurt himself sneezing (and I think I mentioned that it could go either way) that's kind of borderline, depending on which way you interpret it. What did he actually hurt? A ribcage muscle? If it's something that could have been hurting lifting weights or something like that, maybe not. He

 

I think in the context of this discussion, which is talking about a player being fragile, you're right. I shouldn't have said said that was a freak injury, because that injury could have happened while doing something else, and ultimately, his body made that happen. he could suffer that same injury doing something normal like lifting weights, just like Bradley could easily have twisted his legs doing something normal/ We're talking about whether or not a certain injury should go against a player in his "is he fragile or not" debate. Bradley's torn ACL could easily be because he's fragile, just like all his other injuries. Same could be said for Sosa at the time. Prior getting hit by a line drive had nothing to do with his fragile body. It was a freak occurance that will never happen again.

Posted
I'm going to do this even though it's against my better judgment..

 

When I was young my mother would tell me: "Never argue with unreasonable people; because you can't reason with them". But here I go anyways.

 

A freak accident should be defined as: An accident that occurs when you would otherwise NOT expect one to occur.

1. D. Lee breaking his wrist: No way anyone would not expect that to happen after his hand, wrist were hit like they were. Take 100 people in the exact same situation and probably 80% it would have resulted in a break.

2. Any pitcher who has arm issues: The arm issue would be a result of the violent movement of the arm when throwing a baseball (arm should include elbow, shoulder and so on).

3. Mark Prior taking a line drive to the elbow; of course he got hurt, nothing freaky about that. The fact he got hit could be called a "freak" thing because players don't often get hit with baseballs when on defense. However his being injured once hit; nothing freaky about that. Anytime someone is hit with a hard object going over 100mph I would have to say an accident is expected.

4. A player swinging a bat; you can't break down every injury that could be expected; but side (oblique’s), back, wrists, fingers, thumbs and possibly hips could become injured during this process. Nothing freaky about that, because one could reasonably expect it to happen.

THE LIST GOES ON.....

 

I would have to say anyone tearing an ACL when being held back is not something you would reasonably (keyword) expect to happen. Take 100 people in the exact same situation and a LOT less than 80% would end in an ACL tear. That to me makes it a freak accident.

Sammy Sosa sneezing and hurting his back (out 30 days); to me that is a freak accident; you just don't NORMALLY expect someone to miss 30 days because of a sneeze.

The sneeze analogy perfectly illustrates what I've been trying to explain. People sneeze all the darn time, and nothing comes of it.

 

Just like as dextermorgan has explained, professional baseball players step awkwardly on their leg all the darn time, and nothing comes of it.

 

So if throwing your back out sneezing is a freak injury (since you've sneezed countless times with no injury occurring), then by the same logic, tearing your ACL stepping awkwardly is also a freak injury (since you've stepped awkwardly countless times with no injury occurring).

 

Except people almost never get hurt sneezing. That's why it's a freak injury. People get hurt by twisting their legs. You're leaving out that very huge difference. Also, I'd say that there's a pretty big difference between a sneeze and a twisting of your leg. One is a natural thing that the body does by itself. The other is something that your body is put through due to a mistake.

Your definition of a freak injury is: something people almost never get hurt doing (reference the bolded statement above).

 

You've told us over and over and over again how baseball players step awkwardly on their leg all the time without getting hurt.

 

Therefore by your own definition of the term, when a baseball player gets hurt stepping awkwardly, it's a freak injury.

 

That's not my definiton at all. I don't know where you're getting that.

"people almost never get hurt sneezing. That's why it's a freak injury." -- dextermorgan

 

I've seen the future. Someone wins this argument sometime in March with incisive logic and a new viewpoint, thus winning the respect of the other. Bread is broken and Cub Nation emerges from their bomb shelters. I won't tell you who wins. I wouldn't want to ruin the surprise.

Posted
I just noticed on Milton Bradley's baseball reference page that he was traded by Cleveland for Franklin Gutierrez and Andrew Brown.

 

Later, he was traded from Oakland to San Diego for Andrew Brown.

Similar thing happened with Dick Allen in 1974-75. The White Sox traded him to the Braves for Jim Essian. Then, when he refused to play for the Braves, they traded him to the Phillies for.....Jim Essian.

 

What actually happened was that the trade to the Braves was for a PTBNL. When the Braves got Essian from the Phillies they then flipped him to the Sox as the PTBNL.

Posted
Yes but who has ever heard of somebody hurting themself be sneezing? People get hurt by twisting your legs up all the time. If you want to get technical about it, you're right, maybe it wasn't a freak injury when Sosa hurt himself sneezing (and I think I mentioned that it could go either way) that's kind of borderline, depending on which way you interpret it. What did he actually hurt? A ribcage muscle? If it's something that could have been hurting lifting weights or something like that, maybe not. He

 

I think in the context of this discussion, which is talking about a player being fragile, you're right. I shouldn't have said said that was a freak injury, because that injury could have happened while doing something else, and ultimately, his body made that happen. he could suffer that same injury doing something normal like lifting weights, just like Bradley could easily have twisted his legs doing something normal/ We're talking about whether or not a certain injury should go against a player in his "is he fragile or not" debate. Bradley's torn ACL could easily be because he's fragile, just like all his other injuries. Same could be said for Sosa at the time. Prior getting hit by a line drive had nothing to do with his fragile body. It was a freak occurance that will never happen again.

So if "people get hurt by twisting (their) legs up all the time," then what the heck is the problem here?

 

That proves what happened to Bradley could've happened to any athlete: fragile, normal, durable, or Ripkenesque.

Posted
I'm going to give Bradley the benefit of the doubt. If he can play 100+ games next year and put up the numbers he did as a Ranger, the Cubs are in terrific shape. Whether he can stay healthy or not, we won't know until he gets on the field.
Posted
Yes but who has ever heard of somebody hurting themself be sneezing? People get hurt by twisting your legs up all the time. If you want to get technical about it, you're right, maybe it wasn't a freak injury when Sosa hurt himself sneezing (and I think I mentioned that it could go either way) that's kind of borderline, depending on which way you interpret it. What did he actually hurt? A ribcage muscle? If it's something that could have been hurting lifting weights or something like that, maybe not. He

 

I think in the context of this discussion, which is talking about a player being fragile, you're right. I shouldn't have said said that was a freak injury, because that injury could have happened while doing something else, and ultimately, his body made that happen. he could suffer that same injury doing something normal like lifting weights, just like Bradley could easily have twisted his legs doing something normal/ We're talking about whether or not a certain injury should go against a player in his "is he fragile or not" debate. Bradley's torn ACL could easily be because he's fragile, just like all his other injuries. Same could be said for Sosa at the time. Prior getting hit by a line drive had nothing to do with his fragile body. It was a freak occurance that will never happen again.

So if "people get hurt by twisting (their) legs up all the time," then what the heck is the problem here?

 

That proves what happened to Bradley could've happened to any athlete: fragile, normal, durable, or Ripkenesque.

 

The problem is that there is a pattern of injuries with Bradley. This is just one of many.

Posted
I'm going to give Bradley the benefit of the doubt. If he can play 100+ games next year and put up the numbers he did as a Ranger, the Cubs are in terrific shape. Whether he can stay healthy or not, we won't know until he gets on the field.

 

I don't think we can expect him to put up the numbers he did as a Ranger. I'd be really happy if he could put up like a high .800's OPS. I think the best case scenario owuld be a low to mid .900's, but I'd be really surprised if that happened.

Posted
I'm going to do this even though it's against my better judgment..

 

When I was young my mother would tell me: "Never argue with unreasonable people; because you can't reason with them". But here I go anyways.

 

A freak accident should be defined as: An accident that occurs when you would otherwise NOT expect one to occur.

1. D. Lee breaking his wrist: No way anyone would not expect that to happen after his hand, wrist were hit like they were. Take 100 people in the exact same situation and probably 80% it would have resulted in a break.

2. Any pitcher who has arm issues: The arm issue would be a result of the violent movement of the arm when throwing a baseball (arm should include elbow, shoulder and so on).

3. Mark Prior taking a line drive to the elbow; of course he got hurt, nothing freaky about that. The fact he got hit could be called a "freak" thing because players don't often get hit with baseballs when on defense. However his being injured once hit; nothing freaky about that. Anytime someone is hit with a hard object going over 100mph I would have to say an accident is expected.

4. A player swinging a bat; you can't break down every injury that could be expected; but side (oblique’s), back, wrists, fingers, thumbs and possibly hips could become injured during this process. Nothing freaky about that, because one could reasonably expect it to happen.

THE LIST GOES ON.....

 

I would have to say anyone tearing an ACL when being held back is not something you would reasonably (keyword) expect to happen. Take 100 people in the exact same situation and a LOT less than 80% would end in an ACL tear. That to me makes it a freak accident.

Sammy Sosa sneezing and hurting his back (out 30 days); to me that is a freak accident; you just don't NORMALLY expect someone to miss 30 days because of a sneeze.

The sneeze analogy perfectly illustrates what I've been trying to explain. People sneeze all the darn time, and nothing comes of it.

 

Just like as dextermorgan has explained, professional baseball players step awkwardly on their leg all the darn time, and nothing comes of it.

 

So if throwing your back out sneezing is a freak injury (since you've sneezed countless times with no injury occurring), then by the same logic, tearing your ACL stepping awkwardly is also a freak injury (since you've stepped awkwardly countless times with no injury occurring).

 

Except people almost never get hurt sneezing. That's why it's a freak injury. People get hurt by twisting their legs. You're leaving out that very huge difference. Also, I'd say that there's a pretty big difference between a sneeze and a twisting of your leg. One is a natural thing that the body does by itself. The other is something that your body is put through due to a mistake.

Your definition of a freak injury is: something people almost never get hurt doing (reference the bolded statement above).

 

You've told us over and over and over again how baseball players step awkwardly on their leg all the time without getting hurt.

 

Therefore by your own definition of the term, when a baseball player gets hurt stepping awkwardly, it's a freak injury.

 

That's not my definiton at all. I don't know where you're getting that.

 

My definition of a freak injury is: an injury sustained in a freak situation that you can not reasonably expect to occur/happen again.

 

You can reasonably expect that an athlete might eventually twist his leg or step on it funny.

 

You can't reasonably expect a player to get hit with a line drive in the elbow again

 

You could slip and twist your legs (enough to force some kind of injury) mutiple times in a season and it wouldn't really be a surprise. It wouldn't be expected, but it wouldn't be shocking that it happened. If someone broke their elbow by getting hit with a baseball going over 100 MPH twice in the same lifetime, it would be shocking... or a "freak" occurrence.

 

The point isn't that Bradley "twist[ed] his leg" or "step[ped] on it funny." The point is that he did it while doing something that almost never happens, and can't reasonably be expected to happen again. How often is Milton Bradley -- or anyone else -- thrown by their manager out of way of an umpire? That's what is freakish about the injury.

 

If he had hurt knee running down a fly ball, or running the bases, or hitting, it would not have be a freak injury, because players constantly perform those tasks.

 

Under your definition, if Bradley had hurt his knee stepping on ice in the parking lot of a grocery store, that wouldn't be a freak injury because, after all, "you can reasonably expect that an athlete might eventually twist his leg or step on it funny."

Posted
Yes but who has ever heard of somebody hurting themself be sneezing? People get hurt by twisting your legs up all the time. If you want to get technical about it, you're right, maybe it wasn't a freak injury when Sosa hurt himself sneezing (and I think I mentioned that it could go either way) that's kind of borderline, depending on which way you interpret it. What did he actually hurt? A ribcage muscle? If it's something that could have been hurting lifting weights or something like that, maybe not. He

 

I think in the context of this discussion, which is talking about a player being fragile, you're right. I shouldn't have said said that was a freak injury, because that injury could have happened while doing something else, and ultimately, his body made that happen. he could suffer that same injury doing something normal like lifting weights, just like Bradley could easily have twisted his legs doing something normal/ We're talking about whether or not a certain injury should go against a player in his "is he fragile or not" debate. Bradley's torn ACL could easily be because he's fragile, just like all his other injuries. Same could be said for Sosa at the time. Prior getting hit by a line drive had nothing to do with his fragile body. It was a freak occurance that will never happen again.

So if "people get hurt by twisting (their) legs up all the time," then what the heck is the problem here?

 

That proves what happened to Bradley could've happened to any athlete: fragile, normal, durable, or Ripkenesque.

 

The problem is that there is a pattern of injuries with Bradley. This is just one of many.

 

Right. That's an issue. He's clearly fragile. That doesn't mean the knee injury wasn't a freak accident.

Posted

Not to re-ignite the 'freak' vs 'prone' argument, but here is Will Carroll's take:

 

Marc (San Antonio): How many games do you think the Cubs will get out of Milton Bradley over the next few seasons? Is it true that the third year of the contract is not guaranteed, but rather an option based on how much he plays in the first 2 years?

 

Will Carroll: I'd guess he'll play in something like 120 games per year. He's likely to have a hamstring strain or oblique strain along the way, just like any player. He's not as fragile as some have let on after he signed, but he also doesn't have the protection of the DH slot. The Cubs are (or at least look) five deep in the OF right now, so he should be able to get plenty of rest.

Posted
Not to re-ignite the 'freak' vs 'prone' argument, but here is Will Carroll's take:

 

Marc (San Antonio): How many games do you think the Cubs will get out of Milton Bradley over the next few seasons? Is it true that the third year of the contract is not guaranteed, but rather an option based on how much he plays in the first 2 years?

 

Will Carroll: I'd guess he'll play in something like 120 games per year. He's likely to have a hamstring strain or oblique strain along the way, just like any player. He's not as fragile as some have let on after he signed, but he also doesn't have the protection of the DH slot. The Cubs are (or at least look) five deep in the OF right now, so he should be able to get plenty of rest.

 

Who's the fifth?

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