Lou's shake-up: Guzman and his 3.18 ERA to pen

[Rob]

Didnt Z have cramps before?

 

Yeah, he's had em before.

[brinoch]

I would like to borrow the crystal ball many on this thread seem to own, that tells them Marshall "is sure to do worse than Guzman." Please tell me the winning lottery numbers next. Thanks.

 

This is unfair. The other side of the argument has claimed that Marshall will do as well as Guzman, which is using the "crystal ball" just as much as the pro-Guzman camp.

[A New Era]

I would like to borrow the crystal ball many on this thread seem to own, that tells them Marshall "is sure to do worse than Guzman." Please tell me the winning lottery numbers next. Thanks.

 

This is unfair. The other side of the argument has claimed that Marshall will do as well as Guzman, which is using the "crystal ball" just as much as the pro-Guzman camp.

 

Exactly his point. It's unfair to Marshall. I don't like the move too much myself. But just because you have Guz in the pen now, doesn't mean he won't go on to be a great starter next year, or even later this year. having to fireballers like guzman and marmol in the pen I think could be a very special thing. It's the PEN that has really blown a handful of games for us this year. If we can improve that drastically, I think we'll witness less depressing late inning let downs.

[Rob]

I would like to borrow the crystal ball many on this thread seem to own, that tells them Marshall "is sure to do worse than Guzman." Please tell me the winning lottery numbers next. Thanks.

 

Gooz has been every bit as good as Marshall in their minor league careers... this despite the fact that Gooz has been nursing some nasty injuries and spending more of his time rehabbing than Marshall has.

 

Gooz has better raw stuff than Marshall does, and by a very large margin.

 

All the scouting reports I've seen are unanimous that Angel Guzman has a much, much higher ceiling than Sean Marshall.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I don't have any intense or irrational hatred of Sean Marshall. I think he seems like a nice guy and has the potential to be a valuable asset to our staff. But seeing as how the numbers, the stuff, and the scouts all seem to agree that Gooz is better, Sean Marshall simply isn't likely to be more successful than Gooz. Could it happen? Sure it could, but you'd have to attribute that more to sheer luck than any stroke of genius.

[C.C.]

I'm going to trust Lou on this until he proves otherwise.

[vance_the_cubs_fan]

I haven't read this whole thread, but let me say I don't like moving Guzman to the pen. He's been an effective starter, and I don't like rolling the dice with the rotation.

 

If the move is to make Marshall the fifth starter, I can tolerate this move. If it is to make Miller the fifth, the it is dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.

 

I'd rather them bring Holliman up than to make Miller the number five. Miller is done. It's time to stick a fork in him.

[JWCUB]

So, is this the "big shake up", or is there more to come?

[CubColtPacer]

If this ends up happening (what I'm quoting), this makes the move a lot better-because it makes the pen a lot better, without hurting the rotation too much:

 

Marshall is likely to be called-up, though whether he will be a starter or reliever remains to be seen. Scott Eyre is the likeliest candidate to go on the disabled list, and the Cubs could go with two left-handed relievers, using Guzman and Carlos Marmol as late-inning set-up man, along with Michael Wuertz and Bob Howry.

 

The only part I'm not sure about is that if Marshall is called up, it better be as a starter.

 

And for the previous poster in this thread:

 

Piniella said he would reveal the next part of his "surprise" on Monday or Tuesday.

 

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-070519citybits,1,3884184.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

[PackLandVA]

Maybe the Cubs are in the process of making a trade for a fifth starter.

 

Maybe Guzman to the pen is in effort to groom him as a closer.

[BDWeav71]

Ive been in the mode of thinking that I believe Carlos Marmol would be a very effective closer. I'd like to see him in AAA learning how to close, because I'm fine with Dempster closing out games. He has been solid in save opportunities this year, just don't bring him in for non-save opportunities!

[RynoRules]

Please please please make it a trade for a corner OFer or SS with a .900 OPS....

 

 

:pig:

[BigbadB]

Abuck got it right. If you have issues with your pen, you do not create issues with your starting rotation to fix the problem. It's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

Looking at Angel's minor league numbers and making the assumption that he can't be an effective starter in the big leagues is not a good idea either. The guy has had to work back from major arm problems. He's getting back to the form he had before the injuries and now they want to set him back by having him pitch out of the pen?

 

STUPID!

 

There is a reason starting pitchers are paid more than relievers. Great pitchers (Santana, Clemens, Zambrano) are not brought up as relievers for the simple reason that big league pitchers should pitch as many innings as possible. If they prove they can't go many innings and continue to get people out, then you subject them to the pen. Every team's pen is a collection of guys who aren't good enough to be starters. Some are guys who have stamina issues. Some are proven failed starters.

 

The Cubs have been looking for a collection of 5 guys who can keep games close for the offense. They finally got that with Zambrano, Lilly, Hill, Marquis and Guzman. And now they are going to blow that up before it really had a chance to prove success. Zambrano is putting it back together. Guzman's stuff is very good and he shouldn't be the one punished because the pen has fallen apart.

 

Every team's pen struggles. I think it will be fine once they work through their struggles. I completely agree that you move guys around in the pen and maybe call up a Marmol or Rapada if you need to make a change.

 

Marshall probably has the best chance for success in the 5th spot over Miller, Dempster or Marmol. But, Guzman has the best chance for success over any of them. Stick Marshall in the pen if you need another bullpen arm.

 

If Cesar Izturis is a problem in your line up, you don't move him from SS to RF to fix the problem. You take him OUT of the line up.

[Keener98]

Just listening to the WSCR and apparetnly in Lous pre game today he was asked if Dempster might be moving to the rotation, and Lou said thats quite possible. They all seem to think thats what the surprise is.

[killthegoat06]

Just listening to the WSCR and apparetnly in Lous pre game today he was asked if Dempster might be moving to the rotation, and Lou said thats quite possible. They all seem to think thats what the surprise is.

 

We have too many good starting pitchers already, why add a question mark??????????

[Jon]

This is what scares me a little about Guz. I looked back into his minor league and major league starts from last year, as far back as when he came back down from the ML in the middle of June. He made 8-9 starts in the minors, then 10 more in the majors. This year, he's made 3 starts in the minors and 3 in the majors. So that's 24-25 starts-Guzman made it into the 7th inning whatsoever in exactly 1 of those ballgames-notice I didn't even say completed, but rather simply started the 7th inning. He started the 6th inning in less than half of those starts.

 

While I would expect that number to be lower than a normal pitcher due to coming back from injury/called up to the major leagues/some games being on a pitch count due to conversion from bullpen to starter, the fact that he has only 1 game over 6 innings concerns me. He hasn't shown that he can be stretched out very long, and that could tax the bullpen heavily. When you consider also that 3 of those starts he left early due to cramps after going 3.2 innings or more, it makes you wonder about his body's ability to handle those innings/pitch counts.

Here's how he was used this season:

 

April 5: relief appearance, 0.1 IP

April 6: relief appearance, 2.0 IP

April 10: relief appearance, 3.0 IP

April 16: relief appearance, 2.0 IP

 

April 21: AAA start, 3.0 IP (ineffective)

April 26: AAA start, 4.1 IP

May 1: AAA start, 3.0 IP (ineffective)

 

May 6: start, 5.0 IP

May 12: start, 5.1 IP (ineffective)

May 17: start, 5.0 IP

 

 

The first 6 weeks of the season are not an issue about what his body can handle. The Cubs screwed him up by letting him pick his nose in the bullpen for two weeks without doing anything (which, not coincidentally, is what he's going to be doing now). He then had to try to build up the endurance that he had in spring training by starting in AAA (the right move, only it came two weeks too late).

 

Then you're left with 3 starts with the big league club. He threw 82 pitches in 5 IP in his first start back. They certainly wanted to limited the # of pitches he threw. In his second start, he was more economical with 74 pitches through 5.1 IP, but was losing it towards the end and Lou didn't want to take any chances. Then in his last start, he had a minor cramp in his leg after 75 pitches and again, they didn't want to take any chances.

 

Last season, they were still screwing around with him, moving him from the bullpen to the rotation and back to the bullpen. All this while trying to regain his stuff, might I add.

 

The Cubs need to let Guzman pitch and stop jerking him around.

[Jon]

Just listening to the WSCR and apparetnly in Lous pre game today he was asked if Dempster might be moving to the rotation, and Lou said thats quite possible. They all seem to think thats what the surprise is.

I love irrational overreactions to a problem that doesn't even exist.

 

The proper reaction to a question about moving your effective closer who has, for a lack of a better term, sucked as a starter back into the rotation after a couple of years there should have been "heck no." Not maybe.

[USSoccer]

Just listening to the WSCR and apparetnly in Lous pre game today he was asked if Dempster might be moving to the rotation, and Lou said thats quite possible. They all seem to think thats what the surprise is.

 

Will it be okay to blame Lou for this?

Yes?

Good.

 

This would be one of the stupidest decisions in recent Cubs history.

[circlecitycub]

Nobody thinks this could be a smokescreen? He may have just given something for everyone to talk and write about. He used Dempster to close on Friday and had him up yesterday until Lee's slam.

 

While moving Dempster to the rotation would be a surprise, I don't think that's what he has in mind.

Edited May 20, 2007 by circlecitycub

[Guest]

This would be one of the stupidest decisions in recent Cubs history.

Hendry's extension?

[USSoccer]

This would be one of the stupidest decisions in recent Cubs history.

Hendry's extension?

 

That's number one on the short list.

[killthegoat06]

This would be one of the stupidest decisions in recent Cubs history.

Hendry's extension?

 

That's number one on the short list.

 

Signing Baker?

[USSoccer]

This would be one of the stupidest decisions in recent Cubs history.

Hendry's extension?

 

That's number one on the short list.

 

Signing Baker?

 

That's on there too.

[Guest]

Just listening to the WSCR and apparetnly in Lous pre game today he was asked if Dempster might be moving to the rotation, and Lou said thats quite possible. They all seem to think thats what the surprise is.

 

Thanks for the confirmation about that.

 

So the options for 5th starter now are Marshall, Miller and Dempster...and I thought the Cubs were doing these moves to strengthen their pen?

[Amazing_Grace]

This would be one of the stupidest decisions in recent Cubs history.

Hendry's extension?

 

That's number one on the short list.

 

Signing Baker?

 

That's on there too.

 

Nolasco and Mitre for Pierre?

[Rob]

This would be one of the stupidest decisions in recent Cubs history.

Hendry's extension?

 

That's number one on the short list.

 

Signing Baker?

 

That's on there too.

 

Nolasco and Mitre for Pierre?

 

Nolasco, Pinto, and Mitre for Pierre. And Corey Patterson for Nate Spears.

 

Since CPatt outperformed Pierre last year, the deal is looking awfully more and more lopsided.