Lou's shake-up: Guzman and his 3.18 ERA to pen

[tfarks]

It's not a poor argument at all. Our pen is a joke. Guz isn't a dominant SP. The argument that he's worth more as a starting pitcher b/c he'd throw more innings is ridiculous. You have to actually pitch well in those starts for that argument to be even remotely valid.

 

Our pen(especially since we've already added Marmol which makes Guzman redundant) and Guzman are better than you're giving them credit for. Case in point...

 

 

This argument I won't buy...The pen is utterly terrible and needs to be corrected. Maybe Marmol can be effective for us but he showed his obvious lack of control has not went anywhere with his appearance today. Bringing him in with men on base is asking for disaster. I will give the pen zero credit aside from Wuertz and Dempster in save situations.

[VVMattVV]

With everyone questioning Guzman's durability, I'd have to wonder why they won't question Marshall's. He has a long history of injuries (including one this year), has never thrown a lot of innings, and doesn't have the same fastball he used to. Edited May 20, 2007 by VVMattVV

[Mizzou]

So is Marshall officially joining the rotation? If so, I'm going to be pretty pissed. I'm not that high on Guzman, but Marshall I'm not high on at all. I don't think he has any future in the big leagues.

[USSoccer]

Well, it's pretty hard to deny that we *are* desperate for something from the bullpen.

 

I mean what would we prefer Lou do? Sit back and watch us blow 4 run leads every few days?

 

I'd prefer he doesn't put the two relievers most responsible for blown holds and leads in hold situations. That's not too much to ask, considering Lou complains about it afterward. He's aware of the problem. He's fixing it the stupid way.

[abuck1220]

boo hoo. if people make terrible arguments, they're going to get torn apart.

 

It's not a poor argument at all. Our pen is a joke. Guz isn't a dominant SP. The argument that he's worth more as a starting pitcher b/c he'd throw more innings is ridiculous. You have to actually pitch well in those starts for that argument to be even remotely valid.

 

Gooz has the stuff to be lights out in the pen. He doesn't have the stuff to consistently dominate as a ML starter.

 

that is complete crap and a laughable basis for your terribly weak argument.

 

supporters of this move seem to be operating under the assumption that whoever replaces guzman will be as good or better than him, and that's not necessarily true.

 

until someone proves to me that 3 (probably the greatest number of innings he'll throw in a week out of the pen) is greater than 6 (the number of innings he could throw as a starter), i'm not buying into this argument.

[USSoccer]

Seriously, this is laughable. People are trying to justify this by saying:

 

-Marshall might be just as good as Guzman

-Guzman has cramps, so he should be a reliever

-Our bullpen stinks; we need Guzman there more than we need him starting

 

 

And ignoring:

 

-Marshall probably will be worse than Angel, and will almost certainly not be better.

-Lou is mismanaging his bullpen now as it is.

-They brought up Marmol for depth. Why dump Guzman in the miz too?

-A reliever is far less valuable than a starter.

-Cramps are no reason to make a guy a reliever.

 

 

This is really not that hard. Can't the defenders of this idiocy see that the problem with the pen is just as much Piniella as it is Howry and Eyre, and that Marmol makes Guzman redundant? Can't you grasp that 5-6 IP starting is a ton more important than 2 random innings per week out of the pen? That cramping is so incredibly minor that the fact that it hasn't been addressed is a damning indictment of the training staff?

 

Condescend much?

You must be new here.

 

Subtle dig.

 

If people want to get in serious discussions here, they should bring their "A" game. You can call it condescending, but it's simply summing up a bad argument and calling it out on the table. If someone wants to bring a point countering the consensus in an effective way, fine, but if people keep trotting out talk radio arguments and logic, they should be prepared for appropriate responses.

[A New Era]

I'm kindof in the slightly dissapointed camp. I'd like to see Guz in the rotation until he has a couple of bad games in a row atleast.

 

However I am always willing to give other things a chance, so I will wait to see how Marshall does for a couple of starts and how many important games Guzman can "hold". To see how this is going, before I judge too much. .

[Guest]

So is Marshall officially joining the rotation? If so, I'm going to be pretty pissed. I'm not that high on Guzman, but Marshall I'm not high on at all. I don't think he has any future in the big leagues.

 

Not confirmed. Lou hasn't named anyone yet, he just said Angel Guzman is going to the pen. Marshall is the leading candidate; Wade Miller (his "rehab" is over) is a candidate and I've even heard Ryan Dempster's name.

[Soul]

Well, it's pretty hard to deny that we *are* desperate for something from the bullpen.

 

I mean what would we prefer Lou do? Sit back and watch us blow 4 run leads every few days?

 

I'd prefer he doesn't put the two relievers most responsible for blown holds and leads in hold situations. That's not too much to ask, considering Lou complains about it afterward. He's aware of the problem. He's fixing it the stupid way.

 

What's the non-stupid way? Lean on Ohman and Wuertz every day and let Eyre and Howry rot? What do we do in August when their arms are burnt out?

[abuck1220]

i'm on board with the idea that the pen sucks, but potentially crippling the rotation in an attempt to fix it is cutting off the nose to spite the face.

[USSoccer]

Well, it's pretty hard to deny that we *are* desperate for something from the bullpen.

 

I mean what would we prefer Lou do? Sit back and watch us blow 4 run leads every few days?

 

I'd prefer he doesn't put the two relievers most responsible for blown holds and leads in hold situations. That's not too much to ask, considering Lou complains about it afterward. He's aware of the problem. He's fixing it the stupid way.

 

What's the non-stupid way? Lean on Ohman and Wuertz every day and let Eyre and Howry rot? What do we do in August when their arms are burnt out?

 

Wuertz is your primary RH set up, with Marmol backing up. Cotts and Ohman can be your LOOGY guys. You don't need a LH set up guy. Handle it like that until Howry and/or Eyre get straightened out in roles that see them coming in with a big lead or trailing, or when Wuertz, Marmol and the LOOGY's are unavailable.

[David]

boo hoo. if people make terrible arguments, they're going to get torn apart.

 

It's not a poor argument at all. Our pen is a joke. Guz isn't a dominant SP. The argument that he's worth more as a starting pitcher b/c he'd throw more innings is ridiculous. You have to actually pitch well in those starts for that argument to be even remotely valid.

 

Gooz has the stuff to be lights out in the pen. He doesn't have the stuff to consistently dominate as a ML starter. If that changeup ever comes back, then fine.

 

Cramps schmamps. Gooz has a very significant injury history. Limiting the number of innings he pitches is a smart thing.

 

It is a terrible argument. Starters = more important than relievers.

 

As for the bolded part, says who? Your expert opinion?

 

EDIT - English-snob remark deleted. I'm a moron.

Edited May 20, 2007 by David

[Soul]

Well, it's pretty hard to deny that we *are* desperate for something from the bullpen.

 

I mean what would we prefer Lou do? Sit back and watch us blow 4 run leads every few days?

 

I'd prefer he doesn't put the two relievers most responsible for blown holds and leads in hold situations. That's not too much to ask, considering Lou complains about it afterward. He's aware of the problem. He's fixing it the stupid way.

 

What's the non-stupid way? Lean on Ohman and Wuertz every day and let Eyre and Howry rot? What do we do in August when their arms are burnt out?

 

Wuertz is your primary RH set up, with Marmol backing up. Cotts and Ohman can be your LOOGY guys. You don't need a LH set up guy. Handle it like that until Howry and/or Eyre get straightened out in roles that see them coming in with a big lead or trailing, or when Wuertz, Marmol and the LOOGY's are unavailable.

 

I don't think it's very realistic to deadweight 2 primary relievers and massively increase the load on your remaining arms. They'll be burned out by July, we're playing a lot of close games here.

[A New Era]

i'm on board with the idea that the pen sucks, but potentially crippling the rotation in an attempt to fix it is cutting off the nose to spite the face.

 

Yeah couldn't they have made a trade or something? I mean we DO have alot of decent peices. But oh well, whatever. . I'm in the "wait and see" camp. .

[Transmogrified Tiger]

It's not a poor argument at all. Our pen is a joke. Guz isn't a dominant SP. The argument that he's worth more as a starting pitcher b/c he'd throw more innings is ridiculous. You have to actually pitch well in those starts for that argument to be even remotely valid.

 

Our pen(especially since we've already added Marmol which makes Guzman redundant) and Guzman are better than you're giving them credit for. Case in point...

 

 

This argument I won't buy...The pen is utterly terrible and needs to be corrected. Maybe Marmol can be effective for us but he showed his obvious lack of control has not went anywhere with his appearance today. Bringing him in with men on base is asking for disaster. I will give the pen zero credit aside from Wuertz and Dempster in save situations.

 

Dempster has been very good, Wuertz is good and should be the 8th inning guy, Ohman has continued to be effective as a LOOGY, Cotts has been better than expected, and Howry is better than his current production(his BABIP should be about .030 lower, a huge difference for a reliever). With the addition of Marmol, you have Howry, Cotts, and Marmol as options(who you have varying levels of comfort with) to get you through the 7th(plus Ohman as a lefty assassin), and pitch the 8th/9th occasionally in games with large deficits. It's far from a disaster.

[C.C.]

i'm on board with the idea that the pen sucks, but potentially crippling the rotation in an attempt to fix it is cutting off the nose to spite the face.

 

Yeah couldn't they have made a trade or something? I mean we DO have alot of decent peices. But oh well, whatever. . I'm in the "wait and see" camp. .

 

No one is trading in May....

[David]

i'm on board with the idea that the pen sucks, but potentially crippling the rotation in an attempt to fix it is cutting off the nose to spite the face.

 

Yeah couldn't they have made a trade or something? I mean we DO have alot of decent peices. But oh well, whatever. . I'm in the "wait and see" camp. .

 

No one is trading in May....

 

Says you?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

I don't think it's very realistic to deadweight 2 primary relievers and massively increase the load on your remaining arms. They'll be burned out by July, we're playing a lot of close games here.

 

You're way overstating this. It's just a reallocation of the roles in the pen. Howry and (especially) Eyre will throw less innings, but no one's suggesting banishing them until there's a 10 run difference before letting them on the field. The risk of overuse is the same as it would be if Howry/Eyre were pitching well.

[C.C.]

i'm on board with the idea that the pen sucks, but potentially crippling the rotation in an attempt to fix it is cutting off the nose to spite the face.

 

Yeah couldn't they have made a trade or something? I mean we DO have alot of decent peices. But oh well, whatever. . I'm in the "wait and see" camp. .

 

No one is trading in May....

 

Says you?

 

Have you seen any trades lately?

[David]

i'm on board with the idea that the pen sucks, but potentially crippling the rotation in an attempt to fix it is cutting off the nose to spite the face.

 

Yeah couldn't they have made a trade or something? I mean we DO have alot of decent peices. But oh well, whatever. . I'm in the "wait and see" camp. .

 

No one is trading in May....

 

Says you?

 

Have you seen any trades lately?

 

While big names aren't likely to be traded at this point in the season, there's no reason that you wouldn't see the smaller types of deals, like ones for relief pitchers, at this point in the season.

 

Also, as for whether or not I've seen trades lately, didn't what's his name get traded twice in the last few weeks? I can't remember who it was.

Edited May 20, 2007 by David

[frostwyrm]

It's bad enough that our most promising young starter is being dumped into the bullpen, what makes it worse that the Cubs feel compelled to do this crap despite spending $20+ mil. on relievers this year. Absolutely pathetic. My bet is that Hendry will look for yet another expensive veteran reliever if Eyre and Howry don't shape up within the next 2 weeks. We could have a $25M bullpen before long.

[C.C.]

i'm on board with the idea that the pen sucks, but potentially crippling the rotation in an attempt to fix it is cutting off the nose to spite the face.

 

Yeah couldn't they have made a trade or something? I mean we DO have alot of decent peices. But oh well, whatever. . I'm in the "wait and see" camp. .

 

No one is trading in May....

 

Says you?

 

Have you seen any trades lately?

 

While big names aren't likely to be traded at this point in the season, there's no reason that you wouldn't see the smaller types of deals, like ones for relief pitchers, at this point in the season.

 

Okay.

[Soul]

I don't think it's very realistic to deadweight 2 primary relievers and massively increase the load on your remaining arms. They'll be burned out by July, we're playing a lot of close games here.

 

You're way overstating this. It's just a reallocation of the roles in the pen. Howry and (especially) Eyre will throw less innings, but no one's suggesting banishing them until there's a 10 run difference before letting them on the field. The risk of overuse is the same as it would be if Howry/Eyre were pitching well.

 

Alright, then what you're talking about isn't really going to net much of a difference. Howry & Eyre will still be pitched.....will still suck, still blow leads for us. Unless they suddenly see the light, Lou will have to pull them to save leads, resulting in more innings for our current BP pitchers, which = more burnout.

 

Net result, probably much the same. I don't like moving Guzman to the pen either. I'm not sure any of these other options are all that great.

[C.C.]

It's bad enough that our most promising young starter is being dumped into the bullpen, what makes it worse that the Cubs feel compelled to do this crap despite spending $20+ mil. on relievers this year. Absolutely pathetic. My bet is that Hendry will look for yet another expensive veteran reliever if Eyre and Howry don't shape up within the next 2 weeks. We could have a $25M bullpen before long.

 

It's sad but it's true. Our pen is a mess...

[tfarks]

It's not a poor argument at all. Our pen is a joke. Guz isn't a dominant SP. The argument that he's worth more as a starting pitcher b/c he'd throw more innings is ridiculous. You have to actually pitch well in those starts for that argument to be even remotely valid.

 

Our pen(especially since we've already added Marmol which makes Guzman redundant) and Guzman are better than you're giving them credit for. Case in point...

 

 

This argument I won't buy...The pen is utterly terrible and needs to be corrected. Maybe Marmol can be effective for us but he showed his obvious lack of control has not went anywhere with his appearance today. Bringing him in with men on base is asking for disaster. I will give the pen zero credit aside from Wuertz and Dempster in save situations.

 

Dempster has been very good, Wuertz is good and should be the 8th inning guy, Ohman has continued to be effective as a LOOGY, Cotts has been better than expected, and Howry is better than his current production(his BABIP should be about .030 lower, a huge difference for a reliever). With the addition of Marmol, you have Howry, Cotts, and Marmol as options(who you have varying levels of comfort with) to get you through the 7th(plus Ohman as a lefty assassin), and pitch the 8th/9th occasionally in games with large deficits. It's far from a disaster.

 

Oh wow. This is what I won't buy into anymore, I've listened to it all year and have said it myself. Ohman is getting better, yet still sucks. What did he do today? Let gritty Erstad on, got Uribe out I believe, then walked AJ. Small sample sure, but its getting old. Despite the struggle, he is a decent loogy career wise so hes not all bad. Howry has been a disgrace, his numbers indicate exactly how hes pitched. His BABIP might me lower if his fastball wasn't straighter then a arrow. Hes terrible, Dusty taxed him and the 07' Cubs are seeing this first hand. Hes no longer an 8th inning guy. We can't say Howry, Marmol and Cotts will get us through the 7th, how many times have we had to call in our best reliever Wuertz to get us out of those early situations? Do you want to see wild Marmol or Howry pitching with the bases loaded? The bullpen is a joke and should have no confidence in it until it manages to go a whole week without blowing holds and saves. Bullpen apologists be damned.