Lou's shake-up: Guzman and his 3.18 ERA to pen

[abuck1220]

Actually, if he has such a deal, he needs to honor it.

 

 

by releasing him.

[Soul]

Actually, if he has such a deal, he needs to honor it.

 

 

by releasing him.

 

Unless it's written down in black & white, any handshake type side deal would certainly carry with it the strong inference that Miller doesn't suck bones. Once that happens, all bets are off.

 

Time to release Miller to move on with his life.

[abuck1220]

wow, guzman looked great...thank goodness he was moved to the pen to pitch those ever-important mop up innings in lopsided losses.

[Rob]

wow, guzman looked great...thank goodness he was moved to the pen to pitch those ever-important mop up innings in lopsided losses.

 

Oh yeah, see, all innings pitched be relievers are inherently more leveraged than those pitched by starters. So much so that his 1.2 IP of mop-up work has already surpassed anything he could have done in 5 or 6 innings during a start.

[abuck1220]

charlie manuel told me it's the number of days he pitches, not the innings, that matters.

 

and he wouldn't have pitched today had he been a starter, so there.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

Guz 4 Prez

[abuck1220]

if he pitches this well after one demotion, imagine what he'd do if they sent him to AA. crazy like a fox, that piniella.

[Bruno7481]

If Guzman truly cannot throw 65+ pitches without getting cramps, what are the Cubs supposed to do? Guzman has a long injury history, everyone knows that. If this has been a recurring problem, I think moving him to the bullpen is about the only option they can go with. I'd rather have him in the bullpen than being continually taken out in 4th inning as a starter.

 

I realize this argument doesnt fit the "Cubs and Lou are idiots" mold, but so be it.

[jersey cubs fan]

If Guzman truly cannot throw 65+ pitches without getting cramps, what are the Cubs supposed to do? Guzman has a long injury history, everyone knows that. If this has been a recurring problem, I think moving him to the bullpen is about the only option they can go with. I'd rather have him in the bullpen than being continually taken out in 4th inning as a starter.

 

I realize this argument doesnt fit the "Cubs and Lou are idiots" mold, but so be it.

 

How is he continually taken out in the 4th?

[Bruno7481]

If Guzman truly cannot throw 65+ pitches without getting cramps, what are the Cubs supposed to do? Guzman has a long injury history, everyone knows that. If this has been a recurring problem, I think moving him to the bullpen is about the only option they can go with. I'd rather have him in the bullpen than being continually taken out in 4th inning as a starter.

 

I realize this argument doesnt fit the "Cubs and Lou are idiots" mold, but so be it.

 

How is he continually taken out in the 4th?

 

Well, if he cramps up around 60 pitches then I'm sure there would be multiple times where he wouldn't make it out of the 4th/5th inning. I'd rather not have a starter who cannot make it past the 60 pitch mark.

[3Dog]

If Guzman truly cannot throw 65+ pitches without getting cramps, what are the Cubs supposed to do? Guzman has a long injury history, everyone knows that. If this has been a recurring problem, I think moving him to the bullpen is about the only option they can go with. I'd rather have him in the bullpen than being continually taken out in 4th inning as a starter.

 

I realize this argument doesnt fit the "Cubs and Lou are idiots" mold, but so be it.

 

How is he continually taken out in the 4th?

 

I believe Bruno is theorizing here. He's saying that if Guzman was left in the rotation then by the middle innings he'd get leg cramps and have to come out.

[jersey cubs fan]

If Guzman truly cannot throw 65+ pitches without getting cramps, what are the Cubs supposed to do? Guzman has a long injury history, everyone knows that. If this has been a recurring problem, I think moving him to the bullpen is about the only option they can go with. I'd rather have him in the bullpen than being continually taken out in 4th inning as a starter.

 

I realize this argument doesnt fit the "Cubs and Lou are idiots" mold, but so be it.

 

How is he continually taken out in the 4th?

 

Well, if he cramps up around 60 pitches then I'm sure there would be multiple times where he wouldn't make it out of the 4th/5th inning. I'd rather not have a starter who cannot make it past the 60 pitch mark.

 

So now he can't make it past 60 pitches? News to me.

[Bruno7481]

If Guzman truly cannot throw 65+ pitches without getting cramps, what are the Cubs supposed to do? Guzman has a long injury history, everyone knows that. If this has been a recurring problem, I think moving him to the bullpen is about the only option they can go with. I'd rather have him in the bullpen than being continually taken out in 4th inning as a starter.

 

I realize this argument doesnt fit the "Cubs and Lou are idiots" mold, but so be it.

 

How is he continually taken out in the 4th?

 

Well, if he cramps up around 60 pitches then I'm sure there would be multiple times where he wouldn't make it out of the 4th/5th inning. I'd rather not have a starter who cannot make it past the 60 pitch mark.

 

So now he can't make it past 60 pitches? News to me.

 

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-070522cubsbits,1,4871807.story?coll=cs-cubs-headlines

 

Read that, then it won't be news to you anymore.

[CubColtPacer]

If Guzman truly cannot throw 65+ pitches without getting cramps, what are the Cubs supposed to do? Guzman has a long injury history, everyone knows that. If this has been a recurring problem, I think moving him to the bullpen is about the only option they can go with. I'd rather have him in the bullpen than being continually taken out in 4th inning as a starter.

 

I realize this argument doesnt fit the "Cubs and Lou are idiots" mold, but so be it.

 

How is he continually taken out in the 4th?

 

Well, if he cramps up around 60 pitches then I'm sure there would be multiple times where he wouldn't make it out of the 4th/5th inning. I'd rather not have a starter who cannot make it past the 60 pitch mark.

 

So now he can't make it past 60 pitches? News to me.

 

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-070522cubsbits,1,4871807.story?coll=cs-cubs-headlines

 

Read that, then it won't be news to you anymore.

 

It sort of sounds like they had to pull him out of one of the first 2 starts with cramps as well and it just wasn't reported. That's what would have left Piniella frustrated if he had to pull him out of 2 of his 3 starts with the same thing.

[CubinNY]

If Guzman truly cannot throw 65+ pitches without getting cramps, what are the Cubs supposed to do? Guzman has a long injury history, everyone knows that. If this has been a recurring problem, I think moving him to the bullpen is about the only option they can go with. I'd rather have him in the bullpen than being continually taken out in 4th inning as a starter.

 

I realize this argument doesnt fit the "Cubs and Lou are idiots" mold, but so be it.

 

How is he continually taken out in the 4th?

 

Well, if he cramps up around 60 pitches then I'm sure there would be multiple times where he wouldn't make it out of the 4th/5th inning. I'd rather not have a starter who cannot make it past the 60 pitch mark.

 

I saw Guzman pitch here in Memphis when he was getting "stretched out" to become a starter and he threw almost exactly 100 pitches and they took him out. He looked pissed.

 

Let's not try to make too much out of his cramps. I would think any competent medical staff could aleviate this problem.

[USSoccer]

"We wouldn't have brought [Marshall] up for one start," Piniella said. "Look, we wouldn't have taken Guzman out of the rotation if it wasn't for his cramps. There's nothing we can do about that.

 

If the Cubs medical staff can't fix a cramping problem, they should be fired. It's cramps. Make sure he takes potassium supplements and drinks water or gatorade between innings. It's not brain surgery, it's basic, high school level athletic training.

 

Seriously, nearly everyone in the organization should be fired. They are the biggest collection of incompetents ever.

 

Seriously. It's cramps. "Nothing we can do"? It's not Ebola. It's bloody cramps.

Edited May 23, 2007 by USSoccer

[CubColtPacer]

If Guzman truly cannot throw 65+ pitches without getting cramps, what are the Cubs supposed to do? Guzman has a long injury history, everyone knows that. If this has been a recurring problem, I think moving him to the bullpen is about the only option they can go with. I'd rather have him in the bullpen than being continually taken out in 4th inning as a starter.

 

I realize this argument doesnt fit the "Cubs and Lou are idiots" mold, but so be it.

 

How is he continually taken out in the 4th?

 

Well, if he cramps up around 60 pitches then I'm sure there would be multiple times where he wouldn't make it out of the 4th/5th inning. I'd rather not have a starter who cannot make it past the 60 pitch mark.

 

I saw Guzman pitch here in Memphis when he was getting "stretched out" to become a starter and he threw almost exactly 100 pitches and they took him out. He looked pissed.

 

Let's not try to make too much out of his cramps. I would think any competent medical staff could aleviate this problem.

 

Not quite 100 pitches-Guzman threw 76 pitches that night in Memphis. In fact, he hasn't thrown above 85 pitches since last August.

[fromthestretch]

If Guzman truly cannot throw 65+ pitches without getting cramps, what are the Cubs supposed to do? Guzman has a long injury history, everyone knows that. If this has been a recurring problem, I think moving him to the bullpen is about the only option they can go with. I'd rather have him in the bullpen than being continually taken out in 4th inning as a starter.

 

I realize this argument doesnt fit the "Cubs and Lou are idiots" mold, but so be it.

 

How is he continually taken out in the 4th?

 

Well, if he cramps up around 60 pitches then I'm sure there would be multiple times where he wouldn't make it out of the 4th/5th inning. I'd rather not have a starter who cannot make it past the 60 pitch mark.

 

I saw Guzman pitch here in Memphis when he was getting "stretched out" to become a starter and he threw almost exactly 100 pitches and they took him out. He looked pissed.

 

Let's not try to make too much out of his cramps. I would think any competent medical staff could aleviate this problem.

 

Seriously. If it's dehydration, make sure he's drinking water or gatorade regularly between innings. If it's something more serious, get it checked out.

 

And for the record, he's made it well past the 60-pitch mark in each of his three starts.

[Guest]

If Guzman truly cannot throw 65+ pitches without getting cramps, what are the Cubs supposed to do? Guzman has a long injury history, everyone knows that. If this has been a recurring problem, I think moving him to the bullpen is about the only option they can go with. I'd rather have him in the bullpen than being continually taken out in 4th inning as a starter.

 

I realize this argument doesnt fit the "Cubs and Lou are idiots" mold, but so be it.

 

How is he continually taken out in the 4th?

 

Well, if he cramps up around 60 pitches then I'm sure there would be multiple times where he wouldn't make it out of the 4th/5th inning. I'd rather not have a starter who cannot make it past the 60 pitch mark.

 

So now he can't make it past 60 pitches? News to me.

 

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-070522cubsbits,1,4871807.story?coll=cs-cubs-headlines

 

Read that, then it won't be news to you anymore.

 

It sort of sounds like they had to pull him out of one of the first 2 starts with cramps as well and it just wasn't reported. That's what would have left Piniella frustrated if he had to pull him out of 2 of his 3 starts with the same thing.

 

I don't see anything in the link about more than one cramp:

 

"Look, we wouldn't have taken Guzman out of the rotation if it wasn't for his cramps. There's nothing we can do about that.

 

"Obviously he was throwing the ball well, but to throw 60 or 65 pitches and have that recurring problem, it's not fair to him, No. 1, and it's not fair to us because we're wearing out our bullpen too much."

[CubinNY]

If Guzman truly cannot throw 65+ pitches without getting cramps, what are the Cubs supposed to do? Guzman has a long injury history, everyone knows that. If this has been a recurring problem, I think moving him to the bullpen is about the only option they can go with. I'd rather have him in the bullpen than being continually taken out in 4th inning as a starter.

 

I realize this argument doesnt fit the "Cubs and Lou are idiots" mold, but so be it.

 

How is he continually taken out in the 4th?

 

Well, if he cramps up around 60 pitches then I'm sure there would be multiple times where he wouldn't make it out of the 4th/5th inning. I'd rather not have a starter who cannot make it past the 60 pitch mark.

 

I saw Guzman pitch here in Memphis when he was getting "stretched out" to become a starter and he threw almost exactly 100 pitches and they took him out. He looked pissed.

 

Let's not try to make too much out of his cramps. I would think any competent medical staff could aleviate this problem.

 

Not quite 100 pitches-Guzman threw 76 pitches that night in Memphis. In fact, he hasn't thrown above 85 pitches since last August.

 

And when he's started he thrown more than 60.

 

Guzman is suffering from the same problem that almost every Cub prospect has suffered from for the last several years. Inconsistent useage patterns.

[frostwyrm]

Unless he's menstruating the cramps thing is BS. The Cubs just want Guz in the bullpen and had to find an excuse for taking him out of the rotation.

[CubColtPacer]

If Guzman truly cannot throw 65+ pitches without getting cramps, what are the Cubs supposed to do? Guzman has a long injury history, everyone knows that. If this has been a recurring problem, I think moving him to the bullpen is about the only option they can go with. I'd rather have him in the bullpen than being continually taken out in 4th inning as a starter.

 

I realize this argument doesnt fit the "Cubs and Lou are idiots" mold, but so be it.

 

How is he continually taken out in the 4th?

 

Well, if he cramps up around 60 pitches then I'm sure there would be multiple times where he wouldn't make it out of the 4th/5th inning. I'd rather not have a starter who cannot make it past the 60 pitch mark.

 

I saw Guzman pitch here in Memphis when he was getting "stretched out" to become a starter and he threw almost exactly 100 pitches and they took him out. He looked pissed.

 

Let's not try to make too much out of his cramps. I would think any competent medical staff could aleviate this problem.

 

Seriously. If it's dehydration, make sure he's drinking water or gatorade regularly between innings. If it's something more serious, get it checked out.

 

And for the record, he's made it well past the 60-pitch mark in each of his three starts.

 

That's true-it's been more around between pitches 75-90 that Guzman has hit a wall. Here are Guzman's pitch counts for the past 19 starts (dating back to the 8th of July last year, after he got stretched out to start again in the minors):

 

75

74

82

76

76

54

81

80

80

93 (in 3 innings)

95

68

94

27

84

104

66

86

65

 

19 starts, and he exceeded 95 pitches once, and only went past 85 pitches 4 times out of those 19 (there were about 4 of those starts where he was on a stricter pitch count that that, so it's not quite as bad as that). Guzman is simply not efficient enough to stay at that low of a pitch count. If he had stayed as a major league starter, he would have had to throw between 85-105 pitches just about every game-Piniella decided that his arm was not ready for that, and while I might not agree with his skepticism, I certainly can understand it.

[CubinNY]

 

snipped

 

You cannot compare stats over two seasons. Those are not consecutive starts nor are they consecutive appearences.

 

This is so much like the Rich Hill saga from last year. He's up, he's down, he's in the pen, he's starting, he's in the pen.

 

They haven't given him enough time to go much over 75 pitches.

[CubColtPacer]

If Guzman truly cannot throw 65+ pitches without getting cramps, what are the Cubs supposed to do? Guzman has a long injury history, everyone knows that. If this has been a recurring problem, I think moving him to the bullpen is about the only option they can go with. I'd rather have him in the bullpen than being continually taken out in 4th inning as a starter.

 

I realize this argument doesnt fit the "Cubs and Lou are idiots" mold, but so be it.

 

How is he continually taken out in the 4th?

 

Well, if he cramps up around 60 pitches then I'm sure there would be multiple times where he wouldn't make it out of the 4th/5th inning. I'd rather not have a starter who cannot make it past the 60 pitch mark.

 

So now he can't make it past 60 pitches? News to me.

 

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/cs-070522cubsbits,1,4871807.story?coll=cs-cubs-headlines

 

Read that, then it won't be news to you anymore.

 

It sort of sounds like they had to pull him out of one of the first 2 starts with cramps as well and it just wasn't reported. That's what would have left Piniella frustrated if he had to pull him out of 2 of his 3 starts with the same thing.

 

I don't see anything in the link about more than one cramp:

 

"Look, we wouldn't have taken Guzman out of the rotation if it wasn't for his cramps. There's nothing we can do about that.

 

"Obviously he was throwing the ball well, but to throw 60 or 65 pitches and have that recurring problem, it's not fair to him, No. 1, and it's not fair to us because we're wearing out our bullpen too much."

 

It's in the fact that Lou already says it's a recurring problem that leads me to believe that it's happened more than once on his watch.

[Soul]

It's in the fact that Lou already says it's a recurring problem that leads me to believe that it's happened more than once on his watch.

 

It just doesn't pass the smell test. Cramps? We've all been watching baseball a long time, who ever heard of this?

 

If it looks like an excuse and sounds like an excuse...

 

My vote is, it's an excuse.