Maddux and $$$ to the Dodgers for Cesar Izturis

[goonys evil twin]

Hawkins was considered a great move when it happened. It was Dusty putting him in as closer that was the stupid move.

 

Hawkins was lights-out as a setup man before Dusty ruined his confidence by making him close.

 

That's the trouble of ever thinking that signing a middle reliever is a great move.

 

What's the point of having a great starting 5 if the bullpen f's it up every other game?

 

I don't think there would be a point to that.

 

Nor do I think it makes any sense to call the signing of a middle reliever to a 3 year deal a great move. The vast majority fail to maintain whatever success they had to earn the contract in the first place. Middle relievers are failed starters who aren't good enough to dominate in short stints year after year (which are the few closers worth the money).

[Laura]

I don't care how many posts I have either, nor do I care about the antiquated thoughts of a bunch of people who put a great deal of faith in fat old men who stare at young boys all days and come up with silly adjectives to describe how they move.

 

I'm not the only one who finds most scouting reports really creepy, am I?

 

"GOOD, FLUID HIPS. RIPPLING BICEPS! HANDLES BAT FIRLMLY, YET GENTLY. SURPRISINGLY SOFT HANDS."

 

I'm surprised they don't put scouting reports up on myspace pages. :wink:

[UBlink]

Oh, and stop hanging jmajew to the cross because his opinion differs from your own. You people are half communist sometimes.

 

Now there's at least one member who might take that as a compliment, but I think most of those who differ with jmajew are pretty much red-blooded capitalists (not that communists don't have red blood too). As such, we have an aversion to over-spending for under-production.

 

capitalism is actually much more inefficient than communism. if you lived in a commune, your basic living expenses for one year would be around $10,000.

 

Yeah, but my production would be worth about $3,995. :)

[Outshined_One]

capitalism is actually much more inefficient than communism. if you lived in a commune, your basic living expenses for one year would be around $10,000.

 

*Cracks whip*

 

Back to Rants with you! :P

[Guest]

Oh, and stop hanging jmajew to the cross because his opinion differs from your own. You people are half communist sometimes.

 

Now there's at least one member who might take that as a compliment, but I think most of those who differ with jmajew are pretty much red-blooded capitalists (not that communists don't have red blood too). As such, we have an aversion to over-spending for under-production.

 

capitalism is actually much more inefficient than communism. if you lived in a commune, your basic living expenses for one year would be around $10,000.

I could live in a cabin with no electricity and forage in the wild for free, too.

[Mizzou]

Just look at the title of this thread. Negativity reigns supreme on this message board.

That I agree with. This is supposed to be a respectable website... the thread title looks like something you see on Cubs.com.

[cheapseats]

I could live in a cabin with no electricity and forage in the wild for free, too.

 

Well, you're already in Naperville... :wink:

[illiniguy]

Just look at the title of this thread. Negativity reigns supreme on this message board.

We have spent a lot of our time, effort, and hard earned mony cheering for this baseball team which is currently terrible. Laughing stock of baseball bad and you are suprised that this message board is negative. I am all for getting a good defensive player, but not at the cost of losing OBP. something this team needs more than anything. Hendry is doing his best to turn us into a dead ball era team that doesn't take walks.

[Magnetic Curses]

I don't care how many posts I have either, nor do I care about the antiquated thoughts of a bunch of people who put a great deal of faith in fat old men who stare at young boys all days and come up with silly adjectives to describe how they move.

 

I'm not the only one who finds most scouting reports really creepy, am I?

 

"GOOD, FLUID HIPS. RIPPLING BICEPS! HANDLES BAT FIRLMLY, YET GENTLY. SURPRISINGLY SOFT HANDS."

 

slides around effortlessly; large, thick hands; strong legs producing a biscuit-like look on backside.

[jjgman21]

Just look at the title of this thread. Negativity reigns supreme on this message board.

 

dude, I tangle with many of the people you are tangling with right now, but look at the roster going into 2004 and look at the roster going into 2007.

 

there's many reasons for negativity there, and if Aram opts out, that will leave exactly three players that are capable of being in the top half of the league at their position, barring offseason acquisitions.

 

sure, defense up the middle is important, but the game is really about scoring runs and pitching. and what really compounds it is that the past two off seasons were relative disasters, so it's hard to see any acquisitions that will allow us to score any runs. the only option will be to bench the two best positional prospects we've had in two decades.

 

 

it's just an absolute nightmare right now.

[Magnetic Curses]

Oh, and stop hanging jmajew to the cross because his opinion differs from your own. You people are half communist sometimes.

 

Now there's at least one member who might take that as a compliment, but I think most of those who differ with jmajew are pretty much red-blooded capitalists (not that communists don't have red blood too). As such, we have an aversion to over-spending for under-production.

 

capitalism is actually much more inefficient than communism. if you lived in a commune, your basic living expenses for one year would be around $10,000.

I could live in a cabin with no electricity and forage in the wild for free, too.

 

i'm not even talking about camping out in the underbrush and eating rats and grubs for dinner, tim.

 

less money spent on living expenses means more fun things to own.

[cheapseats]

 

What's the point of having a great starting 5 if the bullpen f's it up every other game?

 

I don't think there would be a point to that.

 

Nor do I think it makes any sense to call the signing of a middle reliever to a 3 year deal a great move. The vast majority fail to maintain whatever success they had to earn the contract in the first place. Middle relievers are failed starters who aren't good enough to dominate in short stints year after year (which are the few closers worth the money).

 

The Twins bullpen only has two guys who make more than $400,000, and their pen is arguably the best of the last 5 years.

 

Instead of letting guys like Rich Hill continue to start in AAA where they have nothing left to prove, we could have those guys pitch regularly (this is important, Dusty) out of the pen. It worked for Earl Weaver, and it's worked for the Twins. Oh, and some guy named Zambrano.

[UK1679666180]

that's because it's not really an art, it's a guessing game.

 

It's a skill that some are better than others.

 

true, but to say that most it is more than a guessing game would probably be wrong.

 

You're not bobbing for apples here. Everything I've ever read on scouting is that is surrounded by doing a bunch of research, the more work gone into research, more effort they are putting into it, the more they'll get out of it.

 

There are certain things a scout can't forecast, but he'll use his previous knowledge which might be greater than other and calculate the slotted position of a kid that'll be different than other scouts. Then, the scout that gets to know a family better will have a better idea on the intentions of the draftee and the potential signing bonus.

 

There's enough there to separate the good scouts from the poor ones to say that scouting isn't a guessing game. That's why they evaluate players differently and why some are shocked by those who make moves that surprise many and work out (hopefully Colvin) and those who don't.

 

It's not luck at all.

[Soul]

Defense isn't why this team sucked last year, and it's not why they suck this year.

 

"Not striking out" is not important. It's useless when you just make a ton of outs.

Not if he can move runners which many of the Cubs can't and neither could Walker.

 

just moving runners over is a terrible way to approach hitting.

 

slapping at any pitch in order to "just make contact" is gutless baseball, and is generally exposed--much like our team is being exposed as gutless.

 

"oh well, at least they don't strike out much and move runners over."

 

striking out is a small price to pay for attempting to put the ball in play effectively, not just slapping bad pitches around the diamond for the sake of moving up baserunners--who don't exist anyway because we never walk, either.

 

Are we assuming Izturis will play for the Cubs next year? If so, isn't that a bit premature?

Izturis is under contract for next year. The Cubs would have to make a separate deal to move him.

 

So we can't use him in a future trade?

[Outshined_One]

Okay, I've gotten most of my frustration with this deal out of my system. I'm going to take it easy for the restof the day and tone it down. I went on enough of a rampage to leave a nice wake of destructionand pissed off people who likely blocked me or will be sending me nice PMs regarding my behavior on this board.

 

To those people, I say mea culpa. This deal pretty much pushed me over the edge. It wasn't anything personal against any of you, but it was more that I've been needing to vent about this team for awhile now.

[cheapseats]

Defense isn't why this team sucked last year, and it's not why they suck this year.

 

"Not striking out" is not important. It's useless when you just make a ton of outs.

Not if he can move runners which many of the Cubs can't and neither could Walker.

 

just moving runners over is a terrible way to approach hitting.

 

slapping at any pitch in order to "just make contact" is gutless baseball, and is generally exposed--much like our team is being exposed as gutless.

 

"oh well, at least they don't strike out much and move runners over."

 

striking out is a small price to pay for attempting to put the ball in play effectively, not just slapping bad pitches around the diamond for the sake of moving up baserunners--who don't exist anyway because we never walk, either.

 

Are we assuming Izturis will play for the Cubs next year? If so, isn't that a bit premature?

Izturis is under contract for next year. The Cubs would have to make a separate deal to move him.

 

So we can't use him in a future trade?

 

Maybe if we sent along $2m, we could get Royce Clayton? :twisted:

[Soul]

Just look at the title of this thread. Negativity reigns supreme on this message board.

 

dude, I tangle with many of the people you are tangling with right now, but look at the roster going into 2004 and look at the roster going into 2007.

 

there's many reasons for negativity there, and if Aram opts out, that will leave exactly three players that are capable of being in the top half of the league at their position, barring offseason acquisitions.

 

sure, defense up the middle is important, but the game is really about scoring runs and pitching. and what really compounds it is that the past two off seasons were relative disasters, so it's hard to see any acquisitions that will allow us to score any runs. the only option will be to bench the two best positional prospects we've had in two decades.

 

 

it's just an absolute nightmare right now.

 

I hear you and agree. But I don't see what else Mad Dog brings in a deadline trade. You have to give something to get something. 2 months of 4.69 ERA doesn't bring much.

 

If this team is to turn it around, it was never going to be on the back of a miracle Maddux trade.

[Caryatid]

Just look at the title of this thread. Negativity reigns supreme on this message board.

 

dude, I tangle with many of the people you are tangling with right now, but look at the roster going into 2004 and look at the roster going into 2007.

 

there's many reasons for negativity there, and if Aram opts out, that will leave exactly three players that are capable of being in the top half of the league at their position, barring offseason acquisitions.

 

sure, defense up the middle is important, but the game is really about scoring runs and pitching. and what really compounds it is that the past two off seasons were relative disasters, so it's hard to see any acquisitions that will allow us to score any runs. the only option will be to bench the two best positional prospects we've had in two decades.

 

 

it's just an absolute nightmare right now.

 

I hear you and agree. But I don't see what else Mad Dog brings in a deadline trade. You have to give something to get something. 2 months of 4.69 ERA doesn't bring much.

 

If this team is to turn it around, it was never going to be on the back of a miracle Maddux trade.

 

So why make a deal that makes you worse offensively both now and in the future?

[jjgman21]

the thing about scouting is it seems it should be so easy

 

does he recognize when a pitch is a ball?

does he swing when the pitch is a ball?

does he take a good swing when the pitch is a strike?

 

if you get the right response to all three, evaluate further. if you get the wrong response to any of the three, move onto the next guy (unless he's some freak like Vlad, but those guys are 1 in a million).

[goonys evil twin]

I hear you and agree. But I don't see what else Mad Dog brings in a deadline trade. You have to give something to get something. 2 months of 4.69 ERA doesn't bring much.

 

If this team is to turn it around, it was never going to be on the back of a miracle Maddux trade.

 

But the Cubs didn't get something, they got less than nothing. They got a terrible baseball player who is also very expensive. That's a bad thing. Not all players are assets. Teams are forced to dump players all the time because they make a lot more than their production should warrent. Izturis is awful. He is exactly the wrong type of player for this team. He doesn't get on base and has no power. This team has about a dozen guys just like that.

[goonys evil twin]

the thing about scouting is it seems it should be so easy

 

does he recognize when a pitch is a ball?

does he swing when the pitch is a ball?

does he take a good swing when the pitch is a strike?

 

if you get the right response to all three, evaluate further. if you get the wrong response to any of the three, move onto the next guy (unless he's some freak like Vlad, but those guys are 1 in a million).

 

That's what scouts seem to hang their hat on. Baseball is a game of failure. Just like most great hitters fail more than half the time, baseball people fail in personel moves quite frequently, and it is accepted. If you sign one guy who does well then you're in the respected club, no matter how much money you've wasted on garbage players. Baseball is an incredibly inefficient sport, because baseball men refuse to evolve. It's a great sport, but it's run by backwards relics.

[Soul]

I hear you and agree. But I don't see what else Mad Dog brings in a deadline trade. You have to give something to get something. 2 months of 4.69 ERA doesn't bring much.

 

If this team is to turn it around, it was never going to be on the back of a miracle Maddux trade.

 

But the Cubs didn't get something, they got less than nothing. They got a terrible baseball player who is also very expensive. That's a bad thing. Not all players are assets. Teams are forced to dump players all the time because they make a lot more than their production should warrent. Izturis is awful. He is exactly the wrong type of player for this team. He doesn't get on base and has no power. This team has about a dozen guys just like that.

 

There's got to be someone out there who will take him.

 

Come on, Hendry's not really going to field a team in '07 that starts Cedeno and Izturis with Neifi backing them up :lol:

 

I don't believe it. Hating Hendry as much as I have grown to-----there are many months ahead of us until next spring. I don't believe this is just it. Can't be.

[DiamondMind]

Hawkins was considered a great move when it happened. It was Dusty putting him in as closer that was the stupid move.

 

Hawkins was lights-out as a setup man before Dusty ruined his confidence by making him close.

 

That's the trouble of ever thinking that signing a middle reliever is a great move.

 

What's the point of having a great starting 5 if the bullpen f's it up every other game?

 

I don't think there would be a point to that.

 

Nor do I think it makes any sense to call the signing of a middle reliever to a 3 year deal a great move. The vast majority fail to maintain whatever success they had to earn the contract in the first place. Middle relievers are failed starters who aren't good enough to dominate in short stints year after year (which are the few closers worth the money).

 

I will agree with you that a 3 year contract is a bad idea, actually. However, I have no problem signing a reliever to a lucrative 1 or 2 deal if he has a track record of success.

[Caryatid]

 

Come on, Hendry's not really going to field a team in '07 that starts Cedeno and Izturis with Neifi backing them up :lol:

 

I don't believe it. Hating Hendry as much as I have grown to-----there are many months ahead of us until next spring. I don't believe this is just it. Can't be.

 

I really wish I could believe this, but Hendry's love for these types of awful players has shown me far too much...

[UBlink]

There's got to be someone out there who will take him.

 

Come on, Hendry's not really going to field a team in '07 that starts Cedeno and Izturis with Neifi backing them up :lol:

 

I don't believe it. Hating Hendry as much as I have grown to-----there are many months ahead of us until next spring. I don't believe this is just it. Can't be.

 

Can we put both Neifi and Izturis on waivers now in the hope we can work a waiver trade? We've got 30 days for a contender to have an injury that needs a Gold Glove middle infielder - and if Neifi's claimed on waivers, wave bye-bye.