Maddux and $$$ to the Dodgers for Cesar Izturis

[jjgman21]

Steve Stone on the Score670 believes this is a good move.

 

He believes it's good to get Izturis a good glove who is locked up contract wise.

 

Also, he says it is better than if the Cubs would have signed Furcal at the money the Cubs offered in the off season.

 

I happen to fully agree with Stone(I know, I blast him a lot), but you got a true SS, a switch hitter who doesn't strike out and a glod glove fielder vs 2 more months of Maddux.

We already have two true SS's on the roster for next year.

 

Switch hitting doesn't matter if the production isn't there.

 

Cedeno & Neifi don't strike out that much, either.

 

Neifi won a GG, too, and we already had him and don't have to pay an extra $4M for him next year.

Cedeno isn't a quality SS and Neifi is a backup. What did you think you would get for Maddux for 2 months, along with a No trade clause?

 

Count me among the idiots.

 

I'm not sure what Hendry was supposed to get for a 2 month flyer on an ancient pitcher with little or nothing left in the tank.

 

Not sure what to think about Izturis. I just didn't expect anything more than a marginal prospect or two for 2 months of Mad Dog.

 

I would much rather have had a marginal prospect than what we got.

[YearofDaCubs]

Steve Stone on the Score670 believes this is a good move.

 

He believes it's good to get Izturis a good glove who is locked up contract wise.

 

Also, he says it is better than if the Cubs would have signed Furcal at the money the Cubs offered in the off season.

 

I happen to fully agree with Stone(I know, I blast him a lot), but you got a true SS, a switch hitter who doesn't strike out and a glod glove fielder vs 2 more months of Maddux.

We already have two true SS's on the roster for next year.

 

Switch hitting doesn't matter if the production isn't there.

 

Cedeno & Neifi don't strike out that much, either.

 

Neifi won a GG, too, and we already had him and don't have to pay an extra $4M for him next year.

Cedeno isn't a quality SS and Neifi is a backup. What did you think you would get for Maddux for 2 months, along with a No trade clause?

 

Count me among the idiots.

 

I'm not sure what Hendry was supposed to get for a 2 month flyer on an ancient pitcher with little or nothing left in the tank.

 

Not sure what to think about Izturis. I just didn't expect anything more than a marginal prospect or two for 2 months of Mad Dog.

Getting a crappy prospect is better than getting a 4mil dollar Izturis. This is a terrible move. I didn't think there were that many players out there who were worse and more overpaid than Neifi was but Hendry struck gold and found one.

[jmajew]

I honestly like this deal. Having a gold glove shortstop in Izturis and having a SS playing second in Cedeno can only help our young pitchers. Our defense up the middle will be spectacular.

 

WE NEED PEOPLE WHO CAN ACTUALLY GET ON BASE.

 

You can get that from other positions. If Izturis returns to his 04 form his 330 OBP will be just fine from the 7 spot. If we can hopefully sign Carlos Lee or Soriano this offseason we will be set. Pierre, Barrett, Lee, Soriano/Lee, Ramirez, Jones/Murton, Izturis, Cedeno.

 

What makes you think his "form" is the 330? Could it be all of the other seasons where he has been much worse? I think that was an anomoly, not something to be expected. His minor league OBP was 311, and it's 295 in the majors.

 

Fine i'm an idiot and all of you are right.

 

There is more to baseball than stats. All of these GMs that rely on stats have not won a World Series, besides Epstein but he is different from teh rest of them because of his extremely high payroll.

 

There is no possible way a guy can go from being a genious back in 2003 to a complete moron now. This is all hyporcitical.

[Guest]

Defense isn't why this team sucked last year, and it's not why they suck this year.

 

"Not striking out" is not important. It's useless when you just make a ton of outs.

Not if he can move runners which many of the Cubs can't and neither could Walker.

 

just moving runners over is a terrible way to approach hitting.

 

slapping at any pitch in order to "just make contact" is gutless baseball, and is generally exposed--much like our team is being exposed as gutless.

 

"oh well, at least they don't strike out much and move runners over."

 

striking out is a small price to pay for attempting to put the ball in play effectively, not just slapping bad pitches around the diamond for the sake of moving up baserunners--who don't exist anyway because we never walk, either.

 

Are we assuming Izturis will play for the Cubs next year? If so, isn't that a bit premature?

Izturis is under contract for next year. The Cubs would have to make a separate deal to move him.

[cbbryan]

I didn't expect to see Izturis in a Maddux trade?

 

It doesn't much make sense to me. Then the Dodgers turn around and trade for Lugo....................and gave up Joel Guzman to do it.

 

I would have much rather had Greg Miller and one of Guzman, LaRoche, Kemp, or Delwyn Young.

[CubColtPacer]

Does anybody know if he played for a while before realizing he was hurt last year? I see that he put up a .370 OBP in April last year and a .402 April in May, followed by a .154 in June. Was he playing hurt then? If so, he still might have a chance to at least get up to a .320-.335 OBP or so. He put up a .330 when he was 24, was playing better than that at 25, got hurt-and has had limited at bats this year some of them coming back from an injury. He at least has the chance to be good.

[Magnetic Curses]

I honestly like this deal. Having a gold glove shortstop in Izturis and having a SS playing second in Cedeno can only help our young pitchers. Our defense up the middle will be spectacular.

 

WE NEED PEOPLE WHO CAN ACTUALLY GET ON BASE.

 

You can get that from other positions. If Izturis returns to his 04 form his 330 OBP will be just fine from the 7 spot. If we can hopefully sign Carlos Lee or Soriano this offseason we will be set. Pierre, Barrett, Lee, Soriano/Lee, Ramirez, Jones/Murton, Izturis, Cedeno.

 

What makes you think Hendry will do ANYTHING to get OBP at any position?

 

Huh?

 

I don't know. But the fact that no one can predict the future is reason enough to be optimistic. YOu can't assume that something is going to happen a certain way. We need to patiently wait till the offseason and see what he does. If he does go out and get Lee or Soriano this will have been a great deal. So sit back and relax and hope for the best. There is no reason to be negative.

 

i'm actually starting to think that hendry is doing the exact opposite of what statistics-minded GM's are doing around the league in a desperate attempt to prove that OBP isn't important.

 

he's doing more to prove that it's important than he'll ever know.

[Magnetic Curses]

I honestly like this deal. Having a gold glove shortstop in Izturis and having a SS playing second in Cedeno can only help our young pitchers. Our defense up the middle will be spectacular.

 

WE NEED PEOPLE WHO CAN ACTUALLY GET ON BASE.

 

You can get that from other positions. If Izturis returns to his 04 form his 330 OBP will be just fine from the 7 spot. If we can hopefully sign Carlos Lee or Soriano this offseason we will be set. Pierre, Barrett, Lee, Soriano/Lee, Ramirez, Jones/Murton, Izturis, Cedeno.

 

What makes you think his "form" is the 330? Could it be all of the other seasons where he has been much worse? I think that was an anomoly, not something to be expected. His minor league OBP was 311, and it's 295 in the majors.

 

Fine i'm an idiot and all of you are right.

 

There is more to baseball than stats. All of these GMs that rely on stats have not won a World Series, besides Epstein but he is different from teh rest of them because of his extremely high payroll.

 

There is no possible way a guy can go from being a genious back in 2003 to a complete moron now. This is all hyporcitical.

 

your views are intriguing to me and i would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[fiver]

ok..no need to stay on the laptop and continue with this discussion. someone send me a PM when Hendry has been relieved. Thanks.

[A New Era]

I honestly like this deal. Having a gold glove shortstop in Izturis and having a SS playing second in Cedeno can only help our young pitchers. Our defense up the middle will be spectacular.

 

WE NEED PEOPLE WHO CAN ACTUALLY GET ON BASE.

 

You can get that from other positions. If Izturis returns to his 04 form his 330 OBP will be just fine from the 7 spot. If we can hopefully sign Carlos Lee or Soriano this offseason we will be set. Pierre, Barrett, Lee, Soriano/Lee, Ramirez, Jones/Murton, Izturis, Cedeno.

 

What makes you think Hendry will do ANYTHING to get OBP at any position?

 

Huh?

 

I don't know. But the fact that no one can predict the future is reason enough to be optimistic. YOu can't assume that something is going to happen a certain way. We need to patiently wait till the offseason and see what he does. If he does go out and get Lee or Soriano this will have been a great deal. So sit back and relax and hope for the best. There is no reason to be negative.

 

That's how I'm viewing it. I like Izturis at SS and Cedeno at 2B. Now. I EXPECT Jim Hendry to go out and get Carlos Lee at LF and either Zito or Shmidt at SP. Or equivalent of those 2. And possibly even upgrade CF or RF in offense as well. If he can do that, I can be happy about this team. BUT, that stuff has to happen.

[jjgman21]

Steve Stone on the Score670 believes this is a good move.

 

He believes it's good to get Izturis a good glove who is locked up contract wise.

 

Also, he says it is better than if the Cubs would have signed Furcal at the money the Cubs offered in the off season.

 

I happen to fully agree with Stone(I know, I blast him a lot), but you got a true SS, a switch hitter who doesn't strike out and a glod glove fielder vs 2 more months of Maddux.

 

I could deal with it if I knew Neifi wasn't coming back next year. But, he'll be back.

 

was just thinking that Neifi plus Izturis in 2007 = 6.5M

and that Craig Wilson plus Theriot/Fontenot in 2007 = <6.5M

 

which would you rather have?

 

 

which reminds me, the Yankees get Wilson for Chacon? fricken Chacon? sweet jesus, give the Bucs Rusch and low level prospect and some money, land the man, and sign him for next year.

 

 

UUUUUGGGHHHHH!!!! I'M SO P'D OFF. THIS DEADLINE COULD NOT HAVE GONE WORSE!!!!

[jmajew]

I honestly like this deal. Having a gold glove shortstop in Izturis and having a SS playing second in Cedeno can only help our young pitchers. Our defense up the middle will be spectacular.

 

WE NEED PEOPLE WHO CAN ACTUALLY GET ON BASE.

 

You can get that from other positions. If Izturis returns to his 04 form his 330 OBP will be just fine from the 7 spot. If we can hopefully sign Carlos Lee or Soriano this offseason we will be set. Pierre, Barrett, Lee, Soriano/Lee, Ramirez, Jones/Murton, Izturis, Cedeno.

 

What makes you think his "form" is the 330? Could it be all of the other seasons where he has been much worse? I think that was an anomoly, not something to be expected. His minor league OBP was 311, and it's 295 in the majors.

 

Fine i'm an idiot and all of you are right.

 

There is more to baseball than stats. All of these GMs that rely on stats have not won a World Series, besides Epstein but he is different from teh rest of them because of his extremely high payroll.

 

There is no possible way a guy can go from being a genious back in 2003 to a complete moron now. This is all hyporcitical.

 

your views are intriguing to me and i would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

 

Thanks for the sarcasm. It just seems that everyone on this board puts very little emphasis on the art of scouting.

[jjgman21]

I honestly like this deal. Having a gold glove shortstop in Izturis and having a SS playing second in Cedeno can only help our young pitchers. Our defense up the middle will be spectacular.

 

WE NEED PEOPLE WHO CAN ACTUALLY GET ON BASE.

 

You can get that from other positions. If Izturis returns to his 04 form his 330 OBP will be just fine from the 7 spot. If we can hopefully sign Carlos Lee or Soriano this offseason we will be set. Pierre, Barrett, Lee, Soriano/Lee, Ramirez, Jones/Murton, Izturis, Cedeno.

 

What makes you think Hendry will do ANYTHING to get OBP at any position?

 

Huh?

 

I don't know. But the fact that no one can predict the future is reason enough to be optimistic. YOu can't assume that something is going to happen a certain way. We need to patiently wait till the offseason and see what he does. If he does go out and get Lee or Soriano this will have been a great deal. So sit back and relax and hope for the best. There is no reason to be negative.

 

i'm actually starting to think that hendry is doing the exact opposite of what statistics-minded GM's are doing around the league in a desperate attempt to prove that OBP isn't important.

 

he's doing more to prove that it's important than he'll ever know.

 

do you find yourself singing that Rockwell hit from the mid-80's with the Michael Jackson background vocal?

[Mizzou]

If Izturis wasn't going to make 4 million dollars next year, if he were slated to make a million or so, then I could live with this trade. But the fact is, he's going to be making more than Neifi Perez for about the same amount of production. AND, we had to pay the Dodgers to get him. That's not too big of a deal, considering that that money wouldn't have been spent elsewhere this season, but it's just principle.

 

This trade looks like Hendry was trying his hardest to get rid of Maddux, why the hell else would he pay money for him to go away?

[Drew Doughty]

I honestly like this deal. Having a gold glove shortstop in Izturis and having a SS playing second in Cedeno can only help our young pitchers. Our defense up the middle will be spectacular.

 

WE NEED PEOPLE WHO CAN ACTUALLY GET ON BASE.

 

You can get that from other positions. If Izturis returns to his 04 form his 330 OBP will be just fine from the 7 spot. If we can hopefully sign Carlos Lee or Soriano this offseason we will be set. Pierre, Barrett, Lee, Soriano/Lee, Ramirez, Jones/Murton, Izturis, Cedeno.

 

What makes you think his "form" is the 330? Could it be all of the other seasons where he has been much worse? I think that was an anomoly, not something to be expected. His minor league OBP was 311, and it's 295 in the majors.

 

Fine i'm an idiot and all of you are right.

 

There is more to baseball than stats. All of these GMs that rely on stats have not won a World Series, besides Epstein but he is different from teh rest of them because of his extremely high payroll.

 

There is no possible way a guy can go from being a genious back in 2003 to a complete moron now. This is all hyporcitical.

 

your views are intriguing to me and i would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

 

Thanks for the sarcasm. It just seems that everyone on this board puts very little emphasis on the art of scouting.

 

that's because it's not really an art, it's a guessing game.

[Magnetic Curses]

I honestly like this deal. Having a gold glove shortstop in Izturis and having a SS playing second in Cedeno can only help our young pitchers. Our defense up the middle will be spectacular.

 

WE NEED PEOPLE WHO CAN ACTUALLY GET ON BASE.

 

You can get that from other positions. If Izturis returns to his 04 form his 330 OBP will be just fine from the 7 spot. If we can hopefully sign Carlos Lee or Soriano this offseason we will be set. Pierre, Barrett, Lee, Soriano/Lee, Ramirez, Jones/Murton, Izturis, Cedeno.

 

What makes you think Hendry will do ANYTHING to get OBP at any position?

 

Huh?

 

I don't know. But the fact that no one can predict the future is reason enough to be optimistic. YOu can't assume that something is going to happen a certain way. We need to patiently wait till the offseason and see what he does. If he does go out and get Lee or Soriano this will have been a great deal. So sit back and relax and hope for the best. There is no reason to be negative.

 

That's how I'm viewing it. I like Izturis at SS and Cedeno at 2B. Now. I EXPECT Jim Hendry to go out and get Carlos Lee at LF and either Zito or Shmidt at SP. Or equivalent of those 2. And possibly even upgrade CF or RF in offense as well. If he can do that, I can be happy about this team. BUT, that stuff has to happen.

 

no team can win with 3 sub-.700 OPS's in the lineup, no matter how much anyone likes them.

 

with cedeno, izturis, and pierre in the order, we'd have to trade for arod, pujols, ortiz, and manny.

 

and that ain't happnin'.

 

what part of "WE CAN'T SCORE!" don't some people understand?

[frostwyrm]

was just thinking that Neifi plus Izturis in 2007 = 6.5M

Neifi: $2.5M

Izturis: $4.15 + 300K buyout, so the total comes to $6.95M. Easier to call it $7M. Big $$ for identical turds.

[Guest]

Thanks for the sarcasm. It just seems that everyone on this board puts very little emphasis on the art of scouting.

That's pretty funny considering we have a professional scout as a member of the forum.

 

I place a very, very large emphasis on scouting -- even more than I used to, in fact. However, completely ignoring actual production in the big leagues is a huge mistake, as well.

[cheapseats]

I guess I am an idiot I actually like this deal.

 

You said it.

[NorthsideAvenger]

And the beat goes on...

 

And so does the World Series drought.

 

But hey....we got TRIPLETS on the Cubs..... :D to :(

[Outshined_One]

Fine i'm an idiot and all of you are right.

 

There is more to baseball than stats. All of these GMs that rely on stats have not won a World Series, besides Epstein but he is different from teh rest of them because of his extremely high payroll.

 

There is no possible way a guy can go from being a genious back in 2003 to a complete moron now. This is all hyporcitical.

 

By God, you're right! John Schuerholtz, Bill Stoneman, they don't give a rats' ass for stats! They just go out there and acquire players who just look good dag nabbit! Any time they see a computer, they get the urge to pull out a Louisville Slugger and tee off on it because computers are the devil!

 

Stats LIE to people! They are a horrible evil that should be wiped from the planet. I don't care if stats tell me that Neifi Perez is one of the most worthless hitters in the history of baseball, by God, HE LOOKS LIKE A BASEBALL PLAYER! He has to be great!

 

Who gives a crap about walks? Only sissies and women take the damn things. Real men swing at every pitch they think they can hit, no matter how far out of the zone it is!

 

Arthritis? Pft, Izturis can get over that. Arthritis is a temporary thing; thats' what my gut tells me!

 

Enough with the shenanigans, here's my bottom line.

 

This organization hasn't won anything of value in nearly 100 years. It's been over 60 years since they even made it to the friggin' World Series. I know they've almost made it on a few occasions, but almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.

 

This organization celebrates when the team posts back to back winning seasons. That's not a good thing; that's an absolute disgrace.

 

Hendry has made a few good moves in the past (Nomar, Hawkins, Ramirez), but it's clear the direction this organization is moving is a terrible one. This team has a $100m payroll and yet they're only ahead of the D-Rays, Royals, and Pirates in terms of record? They're seriously among the worst in the league in runs scored and in various pitching categories; is this a joke?

 

I've had enough of the way the front office thinks. They think OBP is only important, but that guys who have high averages are preferable because they simply MUST have good OBPs! They don't preach good plate discipline and they have an incompetent coaching staff in the majors. Why the hell do you think it's been so long since this organization actually turned out a competent position player?

 

Enough already with the dinosaur way of thinking; it doesn't work. This team won't go anywhere if it continues being stubborn in its line of thinking.

[FadeToBolivia]

Plus, most of them come with the "I don't care about the money, it's not mine" mindset because they aren't capable of understanding that if the team has a budget and spend X amount on one player, that is X amount that will come away from other areas.

 

Not to mention as long as they buy tickets, it is their money.

[Magnetic Curses]

I honestly like this deal. Having a gold glove shortstop in Izturis and having a SS playing second in Cedeno can only help our young pitchers. Our defense up the middle will be spectacular.

 

WE NEED PEOPLE WHO CAN ACTUALLY GET ON BASE.

 

You can get that from other positions. If Izturis returns to his 04 form his 330 OBP will be just fine from the 7 spot. If we can hopefully sign Carlos Lee or Soriano this offseason we will be set. Pierre, Barrett, Lee, Soriano/Lee, Ramirez, Jones/Murton, Izturis, Cedeno.

 

What makes you think his "form" is the 330? Could it be all of the other seasons where he has been much worse? I think that was an anomoly, not something to be expected. His minor league OBP was 311, and it's 295 in the majors.

 

Fine i'm an idiot and all of you are right.

 

There is more to baseball than stats. All of these GMs that rely on stats have not won a World Series, besides Epstein but he is different from teh rest of them because of his extremely high payroll.

 

There is no possible way a guy can go from being a genious back in 2003 to a complete moron now. This is all hyporcitical.

 

your views are intriguing to me and i would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

 

Thanks for the sarcasm. It just seems that everyone on this board puts very little emphasis on the art of scouting.

 

because there is no objective truth in scouting. there is truth in quantifying actions and behaviors and developing a scientific probability for success--it's taught in colleges, it's called "statistics" (it's required for anywhere from a computer science bachelor's to a psych degree). this is what some stubborn people are failing to grasp. baseball has changed, it's not ol' grampa's game anymore, you can't predict success based on how red someone's ass is.

[cheapseats]

 

There is no possible way a guy can go from being a genious back in 2003 to a complete moron now. This is all hyporcitical.

 

your views are intriguing to me and i would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

 

I just laughed out loud.

[UBlink]

Thanks for the sarcasm. It just seems that everyone on this board puts very little emphasis on the art of scouting.

 

Can you link us to some of the current scouting reports that indicate Izturis looks much much much better than his current stats indicate? I won't speak for everyone, but I know I would love to hear some reassurance that we've got a diamond in the rough instead of a pig in a poke.