ESPN1K says Cubs trying to finish a deal for Pierre

[stitchface]

Juan Pierre is neither Hispanic nor French. Discuss.

 

I don't like players with two 1st names as their 1st and last name. :)

 

Like Jason Michaels?

[imb]

Juan Pierre is neither Hispanic nor French. Discuss.

 

I don't like players with two 1st names as their 1st and last name. :)

 

Like Jason Michaels?

 

youre a page late.

[CheeseHead Cubs Fan]

Don't know if anyone else heard, but Kaplan just reported on WGN the deal is NOT close! I expect no trade will take place tonight. He did mention the deal is being worked on...but nothing is set and ready for tonight...

 

Edit: This was taken from another forum, I did not actually hear this myself.

Edited November 15, 2005 by CheeseHead Cubs Fan

[brinoch]

I was bored so I looked up Juan's day/night splits from last year

 

Day: .324 .374 .410 .784

 

Night: .256 .307 .331 .638

 

Welcome to day baseball Juan... :D

That's encouraging.

 

3-year splits

 

Day: .341 .395 .438 .833

 

Night: .288 .338 .354 .692

 

Those are pretty drastic numbers.

 

I like the split. But I still don't particularly want Pierre. I'd much rather have Wilkerson.

 

What if we only end up giving up Corey and a Rule V droppee anyway? Who knows what we'd have to give up for Wilkerson?

 

Of course, we have no idea what it will take to acquire either Pierre or Wilkerson, so it's hard to say. I think it's important to look at the number of slap hits that Pierre would lose in the Wrigley long grass vs. the extra-base potential of Wilkerson. Pierre's OBP is highly dependent upon his average, whereas Wilkerson's is based on his ability to walk. He slugs significantly more, as well.

 

This obsession to get a "speedy" lead-off hitter versus a guy who just plain gets on base is annoying and, frankly, foolish. Speed is good, and an asset, but you can't just consider speed in a vacuum. You need to consider the whole package. And a comparison of the complete Wilkerson package vs. the complete Pierre package leaves no doubt which player would be better for helping the Cubs score runs.

[stitchface]

Juan Pierre is neither Hispanic nor French. Discuss.

 

I don't like players with two 1st names as their 1st and last name. :)

 

Like Jason Michaels?

 

youre a page late.

 

and a dollar short . . . I don't trust anyone named Juan.

[CaliforniaRaisin]

Juan Pierre is neither Hispanic nor French. Discuss.

 

I don't like players with two 1st names as their 1st and last name. :)

 

Like Jason Michaels?

 

youre a page late.

 

and a dollar short . . . I don't trust anyone named Juan.

 

Haha, I don't blame you.

[Garwilly]

Juan Pierre is neither Hispanic nor French. Discuss.

 

I don't like players with two 1st names as their 1st and last name. :)

 

Like Jason Michaels?

 

youre a page late.

 

and a dollar short . . . I don't trust anyone named Juan.

what about this guy?

(came up in a google search for "jaun bandito")

 

http://britta.com/mystery/bullets/juan.jpg

[stitchface]

I realize that it would have cost an option year, but is that too high of a price to pay to do everything you can to win? Would you rather the Cubs GM not do everything he can to help the big club win? Was there another player in the minors after Murton and Cedeno that would have helped the Cubs more than Pie?

 

I don't think Pie would have helped last year's cubs win anything. The move would have had far more negative impacts than positive ones in all likelihood.

[stitchface]

Juan Pierre is neither Hispanic nor French. Discuss.

 

I don't like players with two 1st names as their 1st and last name. :)

 

Like Jason Michaels?

 

youre a page late.

 

and a dollar short . . . I don't trust anyone named Juan.

what about this guy?

(came up in a google search for "jaun bandito")

 

http://britta.com/mystery/bullets/juan.jpg

 

no, because he spells it wrong.

[Omar]

Gah, nothing is happening... Everyone is leaving :x

[stitchface]

Gah, nothing is happening... Everyone is leaving :x

 

welcome to the hot stove league - its like waiting for water to boil.

[don_kessinger_was_good]

I was bored so I looked up Juan's day/night splits from last year

 

Day: .324 .374 .410 .784

 

Night: .256 .307 .331 .638

 

Welcome to day baseball Juan... :D

That's encouraging.

 

3-year splits

 

Day: .341 .395 .438 .833

 

Night: .288 .338 .354 .692

 

Those are pretty drastic numbers.

 

I like the split. But I still don't particularly want Pierre. I'd much rather have Wilkerson.

 

What if we only end up giving up Corey and a Rule V droppee anyway? Who knows what we'd have to give up for Wilkerson?

 

Of course, we have no idea what it will take to acquire either Pierre or Wilkerson, so it's hard to say. I think it's important to look at the number of slap hits that Pierre would lose in the Wrigley long grass vs. the extra-base potential of Wilkerson. Pierre's OBP is highly dependent upon his average, whereas Wilkerson's is based on his ability to walk. He slugs significantly more, as well.

 

This obsession to get a "speedy" lead-off hitter versus a guy who just plain gets on base is annoying and, frankly, foolish. Speed is good, and an asset, but you can't just consider speed in a vacuum. You need to consider the whole package. And a comparison of the complete Wilkerson package vs. the complete Pierre package leaves no doubt which player would be better for helping the Cubs score runs.

 

If you're only interested in OBP, what's wrong with Pierre's effort in 2001, 2003 and 2004? As for the "long grass" strawman, it works both ways--Pierre is the best bunter in the NL, he will have more success doing that with long grass.

 

Look, I like Wilkerson too, but (a) there is no evidence that he's even on the block, and (b) the cost to obtain him would undoubtedly be much higher than Juan Pierre. I prefer to deal in realistic alternatives. As I've seen them this offseason, there are only four:

 

1. Stick with Corey Patterson and/or Jerry Hairston. I think only a few stragglers are willing to try that again.

2. Trade for Milton Bradley. He's obtainable, good, and can be had for peanuts. But he is volatile and has a bad history, something this ownership and management team do not want, for better or worse.

3. Trade for Mike Cameron. Great defense, respectable slugger. Lousy average and OBP, strikes out a lot, little speed, coming off a serious injury.

4. Sign FA Kenny Lofton. Due to regress significantly in 2006. No longer runs well. High injury risk. Defense is as poor as Pierre's.

 

That's it, at least as far as we know. I'll take Pierre over those four alternatives.

[stitchface]

the cost to obtain him would undoubtedly be much higher than Juan Pierre.

 

I'm not sure that's true. If the Expos are looking to move him, I don't think his cost would be higher than Pierre's - although it should be. Wilkerson's skills are far less appreciated than Pierre's relative to their actual worth. Huh? Wilkerson will be less overpriced.

[badger1679666666]

I didn't read the whole 18 pages, but I've heard from other rumor mills that the players involved are:

 

Hill

Mitre

Welleymeyer

 

FWIW.

 

I don't mind giving up any of those scrubs.

[Southpaw191679666239]

I'm not sure that's true. If the Expos are looking to move him, I don't think his cost would be higher than Pierre's - although it should be. Wilkerson's skills are far less appreciated than Pierre's relative to their actual worth. Huh? Wilkerson will be less overpriced.

 

Who? ;)

[Garwilly]

Juan Pierre is neither Hispanic nor French. Discuss.

 

I don't like players with two 1st names as their 1st and last name. :)

 

Like Jason Michaels?

 

youre a page late.

 

and a dollar short . . . I don't trust anyone named Juan.

what about this guy?

(came up in a google search for "jaun bandito")

 

http://britta.com/mystery/bullets/juan.jpg

 

no, because he spells it wrong.

 

He spells it right, I just type with ten thumbs so sometimes things get messed up.

[Andy]

I didn't read the whole 18 pages, but I've heard from other rumor mills that the players involved are:

 

Hill

Mitre

Welleymeyer

 

FWIW.

 

I don't mind giving up any of those scrubs.

Mitre and Wellemeyer I want gone anyway but I think Rich Hill deserves another look before we ship him off somewhere, especially for a one year rental of a usually unremarkable player.

[Roast]

Allright, So i dont feel like sifting through 14 Premium pages to figure out all the specifics. What I got from teh first page is that it was reported on ESPN1000 that The cubs were finishing up a deal with for pierre, in exchange for two minor leaguers. And then we started guessing who those two might be.

 

Where have we gotten from there?

[jmajew]

I don't know why we would give up prospects for Pierre when we could go out and get Kenny Lofton. They are basically the same player. In fact over the past three years Pierre hasn't been that much better than Lofton, if at all. Loftons one bad year was the one he was with the Yankees too.

 

Lofton BA/OBP/OPS

2003 296/352/802

2004 275/346/741

2005 335/392/812

 

Pierre

2003 305/361/734

2004 326/374/781

2005 276/325/680

 

 

Anyboyd else think Lofton is just as good of an option for one year?

 

The only reason Hendry is going after Pierre is because it will look better to the media and fans if he trades for him instead of signing lofton.

Edited November 15, 2005 by jmajew

[JeffH]

Where have we gotten from there?

 

As it turns out, the Cubs have optioned Prior and Zambrano to AAA Iowa and they are the minor leaguers being discussed for Pierre.

Edited November 15, 2005 by JeffH

[imb]

Allright, So i dont feel like sifting through 14 Premium pages to figure out all the specifics. What I got from teh first page is that it was reported on ESPN1000 that The cubs were finishing up a deal with for pierre, in exchange for two minor leaguers. And then we started guessing who those two might be.

 

Where have we gotten from there?

 

UK hates his own name

[Drew Doughty]

I would love for Lofton to be a one year stand in.

 

And Prior and Zambrano for Pierre? Sounds nifty, but I think the Marlins are paying too much. Let's send Hill+Pinto too.

[brinoch]

Of course, we have no idea what it will take to acquire either Pierre or Wilkerson, so it's hard to say. I think it's important to look at the number of slap hits that Pierre would lose in the Wrigley long grass vs. the extra-base potential of Wilkerson. Pierre's OBP is highly dependent upon his average, whereas Wilkerson's is based on his ability to walk. He slugs significantly more, as well.

 

This obsession to get a "speedy" lead-off hitter versus a guy who just plain gets on base is annoying and, frankly, foolish. Speed is good, and an asset, but you can't just consider speed in a vacuum. You need to consider the whole package. And a comparison of the complete Wilkerson package vs. the complete Pierre package leaves no doubt which player would be better for helping the Cubs score runs.

 

If you're only interested in OBP, what's wrong with Pierre's effort in 2001, 2003 and 2004? As for the "long grass" strawman, it works both ways--Pierre is the best bunter in the NL, he will have more success doing that with long grass.

 

How about the part where I talked about Wilkerson's ability to slug and the need to consider the whole package? I'm not interested in only the OBP. I'm interested in the whole package that is a Major League ball player.

 

And thinking of the playing surface, like the fact that most home games are during the day, is hardly a strawman argument. It's a legitimate concern and something that needs be considered. Just because it doesn't support your belief that Pierre is right guy to get doesn't make it a strawman argument. Indeed, your statement of considering only the OBP when I clearly considered other factors is a classic use of a strawman. That said, a discussion of Wilkerson vs. Pierre would be a fine discussion to be had. As would a discussion of the long grass on Pierre's AVG -- would it hurt or help? I would contend that Pierre doesn't, at current, bunt enough to help, and it would hurt his slappy-hitting style. I could be wrong, however. Like I said, it would be a nice discussion.

 

To be sure, I don't find Pierre to be completely objectionable. His production is more certain that Patterson's would be, and there's a value in that above and beyond the production provided. If it's a choice between Pierre and Patterson and the trade is something acceptable in terms of minor league players (or say Patterson and Ryu), then I'll take Pierre.

 

Look, I like Wilkerson too, but (a) there is no evidence that he's even on the block, and (b) the cost to obtain him would undoubtedly be much higher than Juan Pierre. I prefer to deal in realistic alternatives. As I've seen them this offseason, there are only four:

 

1. Stick with Corey Patterson and/or Jerry Hairston. I think only a few stragglers are willing to try that again.

2. Trade for Milton Bradley. He's obtainable, good, and can be had for peanuts. But he is volatile and has a bad history, something this ownership and management team do not want, for better or worse.

3. Trade for Mike Cameron. Great defense, respectable slugger. Lousy average and OBP, strikes out a lot, little speed, coming off a serious injury.

4. Sign FA Kenny Lofton. Due to regress significantly in 2006. No longer runs well. High injury risk. Defense is as poor as Pierre's.

 

That's it, at least as far as we know. I'll take Pierre over those four alternatives.

 

Well, we're hearing rumors that Hendry has inquired about Wilkerson and a deal offer has been made. He might be cheaply available. On the other hand, Wilkerson might very well be untouchable. We don't know. So let's not close out discussion options when they are on the table and being discussed as an option.

 

Personally, I would pay significantly more for Wilkerson than for Pierre. Players I'm hearing being bandied about so freely for Pierre are guys that have upside, and I wouldn't so cavalierly trade them for a rental, or for a guy of Pierre's likely production. Frankly, I think an OF of Murton, Wilkerson, Giles would be something to see. And if you can get upgrade over Murton as well, great.

[Mark_R]

Brinoch, come 2006 and Pie is ready, do you shift Wilkerson to a corner outfield spot?

 

Is he productive enough from a corner OF spot? He was pretty darn mediocre out there last season.

 

Good, well thought out post, btw. Just see some concerns about a guy like Wilkerson (who also needs to learn how to efficiently run on the basepaths) ;)

[brinoch]

Brinoch, come 2006 and Pie is ready, do you shift Wilkerson to a corner outfield spot?

 

Is he productive enough from a corner OF spot? He was pretty darn mediocre out there last season.

 

Good, well thought out post, btw. Just see some concerns about a guy like Wilkerson (who also needs to learn how to efficiently run on the basepaths) ;)

 

Ah, that's a great question... It depends on who else is available via FA or trade. It also depends on the performance, theoretically speaking, of Giles and Murton. Personally, I think Wilkinson is probably a better hitter than Murton, and an OF of Wilkerson, Pie and Giles would be nice. Wilkerson is still only 28 and coming off of a disappointing season.

 

Additionally, you don't have to make that decision. Wouldn't it be nice to have the option to rotate Murton, Giles Wilkerson, and Pie according to matchups and to offer days off? Along that same thought process, Wilkerson provides an able backup to Lee at 1st, and can get some AB's there. It's certainly a bench upgrade, that's for sure. It also gives you a chance to properly platoon Pie into the Majors, rather than rush him into CF and place all that pressure on his shoulders.