Predict the Apology

[snoodmonger]

I see that point, but if you exercise every little opportunity to ensure things like that as a fielder, it will become a circus in the field. Should middle infielders hold the ball on caught baserunners until they are on their way to the dugout, or outfielders wait to throw the ball after a diving catch after an out signal just in case the ump changes his mind? The whole flow of the game would be disturbed. It isn't reasonable.

 

If an ump calls a guy out, that should be good enough.

 

Calls being the key word.

 

Again....the ball was rolled BEFORE the ump put his hand up.

 

But Escobar (and the rest of the infield) stayed in position until the phantom out call was made. If he hadn't made that call, Escobar could've just picked up the ball and thrown him out.

 

I'll repost this--an anaheim blogger has a pretty interesting breakdown of the play.

 

http://anaheimangelsblog.blogspot.com/2005/10/breaking-it-down-i-posted-this-in.html

[CuseCubFan69]

I see that point, but if you exercise every little opportunity to ensure things like that as a fielder, it will become a circus in the field. Should middle infielders hold the ball on caught baserunners until they are on their way to the dugout, or outfielders wait to throw the ball after a diving catch after an out signal just in case the ump changes his mind? The whole flow of the game would be disturbed. It isn't reasonable.

 

If an ump calls a guy out, that should be good enough.

 

Calls being the key word.

 

Again....the ball was rolled BEFORE the ump put his hand up.

 

But Escobar (and the rest of the infield) stayed in position until the phantom out call was made. If he hadn't made that call, Escobar could've just picked up the ball and thrown him out.

 

I'll repost this--an anaheim blogger has a pretty interesting breakdown of the play.

 

http://anaheimangelsblog.blogspot.com/2005/10/breaking-it-down-i-posted-this-in.html

 

I don't deny that the ump made a mistake putting his hand up like that but....Paul should not have taken that chance, that is my point.

[oldcubsfan]

Maybe if Josh Paul had done what he is suppose to do, there wouldn't be a problem. The ump blew the call, but the Angels gave up the big hit, just like Prior did and Todd Worrell did.

[Andy]

I see that point, but if you exercise every little opportunity to ensure things like that as a fielder, it will become a circus in the field. Should middle infielders hold the ball on caught baserunners until they are on their way to the dugout, or outfielders wait to throw the ball after a diving catch after an out signal just in case the ump changes his mind? The whole flow of the game would be disturbed. It isn't reasonable.

 

If an ump calls a guy out, that should be good enough.

 

Calls being the key word.

 

Again....the ball was rolled BEFORE the ump put his hand up.

 

And again, if he hadn't put his hand up there would have been plenty of time for Escobar to throw the runner out.

 

And as Tim pointed out, in a raucous playoff atmosphere stadium, the signal trumps the verbal call, and the signal was clearly out.

 

If it was so loud why did the pitcher and manager of the Angels say they heard the ump say the batter was out? It's not just the umps that are contradicting themselves.

Escobar and Scioscia both said the ump called the batter out, but I think they are just referring to the signal. Scioscia especially would have no chance to hear the ump say anything. Neither one of them heard anything but they saw something. The fist that meant Classless One was out.

[Sludgeworth21]

The ump blew the call, plain and clear. Then he reversed the decision and let AJ take a free base.

 

But....

 

The Angels should've covered 2nd better to not allow the steal.

 

And if you let a schlub like Joe Crede beat you, well, that's all on you pal.

[erik316wttn]

Yes, the Angels shouldn't have given up the hit,

 

But,

 

The ump shouldn't have blown the call. This is squarely on the ump.

[Chris]

 

Look at it Tim. Paul takes off as soon as he catches the ball. DJaxx has a freeze fram of the ump with his hand out straight and Paul is already heading to the bench. The hand came out a little after the ball being rolled.

 

I'll give you simultaneous, but the ball wasn't rolled on the field before the umpire gave the out sign.

[Chris]

21 pages and growing

[USSoccer]

Just wondering if this reminded anyone else of Game 5 2003 NLDS when Kenny Lofton CLEARLY made a sliding catch in CF but all the umps said that it bounced in ... sure glad that didn't cost us the game/series.

 

I think that was game 4, which we lost anyway.

[Andy]

Just wondering if this reminded anyone else of Game 5 2003 NLDS when Kenny Lofton CLEARLY made a sliding catch in CF but all the umps said that it bounced in ... sure glad that didn't cost us the game/series.

 

I think that was game 4, which we lost anyway.

We actually won Game 4, and I think that was the Lofton catch game because didn't Ramirez hit the grand slam a short time later?

[Transmogrified Tiger]

Just wondering if this reminded anyone else of Game 5 2003 NLDS when Kenny Lofton CLEARLY made a sliding catch in CF but all the umps said that it bounced in ... sure glad that didn't cost us the game/series.

 

I think that was game 4, which we lost anyway.

We actually won Game 4, and I think that was the Lofton catch game because didn't Ramirez hit the grand slam a short time later?

 

Ramirez hit his Grand Slam in like the second inning of an earlier game I thought. I'm positive the Grand Slam was in Florida, and I think that Lofton's catch was back in Chicago.

[littleburr24]

AJ saw the ump put his right arm straight out and ran. The ump then put it up while AJ was running. I would assume he was out. But....if there is any doubt the players should take it out of the umps hands and tag the runner.

 

I also give AJ credit for taking advantage.

 

I don't think there was any doubt in the minds of the Angels players.

 

I agree but there was a longer delay after this strike 3 call. I do believe the umps blew this one but you have to be aware of the possibility.

 

 

So you think that every catcher should tag every batter, after every strike 3?

 

That's a little unreasonable.

 

I'm extremely late on responding to this, but I was talking to my brother about it earlier today. He was a catcher in high school and he said that one of the main things that you're taught is that when you rotate your glove when it's near the dirt, you should always tag the batter.

[USSoccer]

Just wondering if this reminded anyone else of Game 5 2003 NLDS when Kenny Lofton CLEARLY made a sliding catch in CF but all the umps said that it bounced in ... sure glad that didn't cost us the game/series.

 

I think that was game 4, which we lost anyway.

We actually won Game 4, and I think that was the Lofton catch game because didn't Ramirez hit the grand slam a short time later?

 

Ramirez hit his Grand Slam in like the second inning of an earlier game I thought. I'm positive the Grand Slam was in Florida, and I think that Lofton's catch was back in Chicago.

 

You guys are thinking of game 4 of the NLCS, not the NLDS. Lofton's trap catch was in Chicago against Atlanta, and it was in game 4.

 

ARam's grand slam was in the 1st inning of Game 4 of the NLCS off of Willis.

Edited October 14, 2005 by USSoccer

[Andy]

Just wondering if this reminded anyone else of Game 5 2003 NLDS when Kenny Lofton CLEARLY made a sliding catch in CF but all the umps said that it bounced in ... sure glad that didn't cost us the game/series.

 

I think that was game 4, which we lost anyway.

We actually won Game 4, and I think that was the Lofton catch game because didn't Ramirez hit the grand slam a short time later?

 

Ramirez hit his Grand Slam in like the second inning of an earlier game I thought. I'm positive the Grand Slam was in Florida, and I think that Lofton's catch was back in Chicago.

I think Ramirez's GS was in Game 4...I'd have to look it up though. Unless someone happens to remember which game D-Train started because that's who he hit it off of.

 

Lofton's catch, I think you are right...might have been Game 2, which we won...or it might have even been early in Game 6...I don't really remember.

[CuseCubFan69]

AJ saw the ump put his right arm straight out and ran. The ump then put it up while AJ was running. I would assume he was out. But....if there is any doubt the players should take it out of the umps hands and tag the runner.

 

I also give AJ credit for taking advantage.

 

I don't think there was any doubt in the minds of the Angels players.

 

I agree but there was a longer delay after this strike 3 call. I do believe the umps blew this one but you have to be aware of the possibility.

 

 

So you think that every catcher should tag every batter, after every strike 3?

 

That's a little unreasonable.

 

I'm extremely late on responding to this, but I was talking to my brother about it earlier today. He was a catcher in high school and he said that one of the main things that you're taught is that when you rotate your glove when it's near the dirt, you should always tag the batter.

 

"When the play is in doubt...you go and get the out."

[Tim]

Hey Cuse, look on the bright side. You've got a great example to use when coaching all your catchers. ;)

[CuseCubFan69]

Hey Cuse, look on the bright side. You've got a great example to use when coaching all your catchers. ;)

 

They already know this stuff! :wink:

 

I told DJAXX the same thing. I think this might even be a topic at the HS umpires meeting. Bowa brought up a point about linedrives that are close to the dirt. You never assume and check the ump quick because if he doesn't say anything you had better throw the ball. I like it when things like this happen as it gets people talking about rules and baseball and people end up learning things they didn't know or think about....like the right hand gestures.

[Exile on Waveland]

Just wondering if this reminded anyone else of Game 5 2003 NLDS when Kenny Lofton CLEARLY made a sliding catch in CF but all the umps said that it bounced in ... sure glad that didn't cost us the game/series.

 

I think that was game 4, which we lost anyway.

We actually won Game 4, and I think that was the Lofton catch game because didn't Ramirez hit the grand slam a short time later?

 

Ramirez hit his Grand Slam in like the second inning of an earlier game I thought. I'm positive the Grand Slam was in Florida, and I think that Lofton's catch was back in Chicago.

 

You guys are thinking of game 4 of the NLCS, not the NLDS. Lofton's trap catch was in Chicago against Atlanta, and it was in game 4.

 

ARam's grand slam was in the 1st inning of Game 4 of the NLCS off of Willis.

 

Correct. Aram's bomb gave us the lead we would need for a 3-1 series advantage against the Marlins. Then the playoffs were cancelled for the year.

[Andy]

Just wondering if this reminded anyone else of Game 5 2003 NLDS when Kenny Lofton CLEARLY made a sliding catch in CF but all the umps said that it bounced in ... sure glad that didn't cost us the game/series.

 

I think that was game 4, which we lost anyway.

We actually won Game 4, and I think that was the Lofton catch game because didn't Ramirez hit the grand slam a short time later?

 

Ramirez hit his Grand Slam in like the second inning of an earlier game I thought. I'm positive the Grand Slam was in Florida, and I think that Lofton's catch was back in Chicago.

 

You guys are thinking of game 4 of the NLCS, not the NLDS. Lofton's trap catch was in Chicago against Atlanta, and it was in game 4.

 

ARam's grand slam was in the 1st inning of Game 4 of the NLCS off of Willis.

 

Correct. Aram's bomb gave us the lead we would need for a 3-1 series advantage against the Marlins. Then the playoffs were cancelled for the year.

Yes, Yes, I remember that quite clearly now. Thanks for helping me get everything straight. Too bad the playoffs were cancelled we had a good shot at winning it all too...

[CuseCubFan69]

Correct. Aram's bomb gave us the lead we would need for a 3-1 series advantage against the Marlins. Then the playoffs were cancelled for the year.

 

I remember when the playoff blackout was imposed as if it were yesterday.

[USSoccer]

Correct. Aram's bomb gave us the lead we would need for a 3-1 series advantage against the Marlins. Then the playoffs were cancelled for the year.

 

I remember when the playoff blackout was imposed as if it were yesterday.

 

I always thought the turning point of game 5 was when ARam turned just a hair too early on a Beckett fastball with the score still 0-0. I thought if we could get a lead in that game before the blackout we'd have won.

[biittner77]

I apologize if this was somewhere in the middle 15 pages of this thread somewhere.

 

When will they get rid of the OF umpires that they add for the playoffs? Those guys are almost never in a position to make a call because they don't seem to know what to do. I don't really blame them. Putting an umpire down the foul line is like playing Eric Karros at 3rd base: little good can come of it and there's an excellent chance things will get screwed up.

 

I hate instant replay mostly because it's based on the false premise that the officials- with the benefit of replay- will always get the call right. In football every time there's a replay the announcers make their guess about the call being upheld/ overturned. The announcers are only right about half the time. A bad call is even more frustrating when it's upheld by replay as is very often the case.

[CuseCubFan69]

Correct. Aram's bomb gave us the lead we would need for a 3-1 series advantage against the Marlins. Then the playoffs were cancelled for the year.

 

I remember when the playoff blackout was imposed as if it were yesterday.

 

I always thought the turning point of game 5 was when ARam turned just a hair too early on a Beckett fastball with the score still 0-0. I thought if we could get a lead in that game before the blackout we'd have won.

 

A gust of the Gods turned it away.

 

Beckett....he was that guy on Quantum Leap, I always thought that series was suspicious.

[Jehrico]

Does anyone else think Soscia blew it on this one? The rule for protesting was stated on one of the earlier pages of this thread, he can't protest whether or not the ball hit the ground. However, he could have protested the fact that the play was set up by the umpire pumping his fist calling the out, then reversing the call. Had the umpire made his call clearly known from the get-go, there would have been no controversy. But since he didn't inform the ump before the next pitch that they were going to finish the game under protest, now a protest can't be reviewed. I think he blew it.

 

No. Because there's no way the protest has a chance to be upheld and Scioscia knows that. He's taking the high road, which has to be extremely tough to do given the spectacular incompetence of this crew of umpires. But he's a long-time ML manager so I guess he's used to dealing with that level of umpire incompetence on a regular basis.

 

The other reason he has to soldier on and shut up is that ML umpires are well known for carrying grudges and the Angels would be more than screwed from here on out if he had called out Eddings, Crawford and Co. for their complete lack of professional ability in the postgame press conference.

 

He has to soldier on because he didn't file a protest at the time of the incident. Since he didn't, then there's nothing he can do, so he's best off not criticizing the umps. Had he protested at the time, there's a chance that MLB would have overturned the call (ala George Brett), and they could have picked up with the 10th inning today.

[CuseCubFan69]

I apologize if this was somewhere in the middle 15 pages of this thread somewhere.

 

When will they get rid of the OF umpires that they add for the playoffs? Those guys are almost never in a position to make a call because they don't seem to know what to do. I don't really blame them. Putting an umpire down the foul line is like playing Eric Karros at 3rd base: little good can come of it and there's an excellent chance things will get screwed up.

 

I hate instant replay mostly because it's based on the false premise that the officials- with the benefit of replay- will always get the call right. In football every time there's a replay the announcers make their guess about the call being upheld/ overturned. The announcers are only right about half the time. A bad call is even more frustrating when it's upheld by replay as is very often the case.

 

I hope MLB never goes to instant delay.