Battle of beleaguered Bears braintrusts

[raw]

14 minutes ago, Hairyducked Idiot said:

Short, and while I think the evidence is good for his processing, you rarely *really* know if a QB prospect can handle NFL speed until you see them at NFL speed and he's not one of the very small handful of guys in my lifetime who you know for sure.

The list of generational QB prospects is Elway, Manning and Luck.  Williams isn't on that level, and if we're including him as "generational" we're going to need a *new* word for those guys and the point of generational was to separate those guys from the guys like Williams.

Someone on reddit suggested the term "presidential" for guys like Williams and I like it, as in "probably the best prospect you'll see in a four-year cycle."

That's probably a better description. I wanted something to say, "this guy is way better than your typical QB prospect who goes #1 because he plays QB (Mayfield type)" but he's not on those guys' levels. I want to put Lawrence on that level, but he probably falls just short as well. 

[raw]

FWIW, I don't think Williams is much shorter than Mahomes. Mahomes is listed as 6'2", but measured at 6'1.67". I think people assume guys are shorter than listed, but Williams appears to be a legit 6'1" based on pictures I've seen of him next to guys with verified heights. I think it'll be like a 1/2 to 3/4 inch difference in height between Williams and Mahomes when all is said and done.

[NorthsideAvenger]

1 hour ago, username said:

There's zero chance the Bears stick with Fields for next year.  No matter how you look at it, the Bears will move on.  I'm a JF fan, but I'm also a realist.  Pace will hitch his wagon to "his guy" and draft a new QB.  And why wouldn't he?  Apart from obvious job security, it resets the clock which has massive financial implications.  I personally think Getsy is an absolute joke of an OC, but results on the field matter... and Fields just hasn't had anywhere near the results to have the Bears NOT take a QB.  I hope wherever he goes, he finds success.  By every indication, he is a great human being.  Unfortunately, he hasn't shown enough to force the Bears to not move on.  

Pace will definitely hitch his wagon to Fields but what about Ryan Poles? What is he going to do?

_____________

I'm not 100% Caleb will be "his(Poles) guy".

I still believe Poles will trade the pick. Just because I believe Poles will trade the pick doe not he is keeping Fields, but I hope he does.

Under no circumstance do I want Russell Wilson on the Bears.

[scarey]

9 hours ago, Hairyducked Idiot said:

You absolutely don't *need* to take a QB 1.10a-1 to succeed in the NFL.

But that's completely the wrong way of approaching the question.  The question is what's the best course of action for the Chicago Bears in the 2023-24 offseason.

Given the following

!) We already did our "pass on a QB to load up on assets to support the next QB" trade and now have a pretty solid offensive and defensive situation for the next QB to come into.

2) There's basically no veteran QB options unless Arizona wants to trade Murray (which will cost a big chunk of the draft capital you're salivating over when you trade out) or you convince whatever's left of Kirk Cousins to come here.

3) Despite the prospect fatigue, there will be a QB available at our pick who is the best QB prospect you're going to see in a 3-5 year span.

I haven't seen any convincing arguments that this isn't our best course of action in this specific circumstance.

The argument (I won't say it's convincing, because I don't think you can be convinced) is it makes a lot of sense if somebody makes a bonkers trade offer and Poles feels that [the additions he can make with that haul] + [Justin Fields] is a better opportunity than Caleb Williams.

I think it is extremely likely that whoever picks 1 and 2 are going to pick Williams and Maye. These next two weeks are important in that regard. If it ends up being Washington and New England at 2 and 3 and one of those teams feels strongly enough about one of those two to make a major offer to move up, I think Fields is a good enough QB with Moore, Harrison, and Kmet as his top three targets. Is he going to be an All-Pro? Probably not, but I wouldn't have thought Brock Purdy to be an All-Pro either. 

Sadly, the consequence of winning (which I don't regret) has put us out of a position to grab one of the top left tackles with our pick without moving up. For this reason, I'm not as eager to trade away #1. But, I do worry that Williams gets drafted as a Bear at 1, he gets crushed the next two seasons behind this O-Line and is on the express bus to Bustville.

At the same time, not drafting an elite LT also sets the Bears 1-2 years back with Fields and no hope for a developing stud QB in my eyes.

I guess what I'm REALLY saying here is, I feel getting a stud LT is more important than anything else the Bears could do this season.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

23 minutes ago, scarey said:

The argument (I won't say it's convincing, because I don't think you can be convinced) is it makes a lot of sense if somebody makes a bonkers trade offer and Poles feels that [the additions he can make with that haul] + [Justin Fields] is a better opportunity than Caleb Williams.

I think it is extremely likely that whoever picks 1 and 2 are going to pick Williams and Maye. These next two weeks are important in that regard. If it ends up being Washington and New England at 2 and 3 and one of those teams feels strongly enough about one of those two to make a major offer to move up, I think Fields is a good enough QB with Moore, Harrison, and Kmet as his top three targets. Is he going to be an All-Pro? Probably not, but I wouldn't have thought Brock Purdy to be an All-Pro either. 

Sadly, the consequence of winning (which I don't regret) has put us out of a position to grab one of the top left tackles with our pick without moving up. For this reason, I'm not as eager to trade away #1. But, I do worry that Williams gets drafted as a Bear at 1, he gets crushed the next two seasons behind this O-Line and is on the express bus to Bustville.

At the same time, not drafting an elite LT also sets the Bears 1-2 years back with Fields and no hope for a developing stud QB in my eyes.

I guess what I'm REALLY saying here is, I feel getting a stud LT is more important than anything else the Bears could do this season.

Any scenario where Justin Fields is still the Bears QB is a non-starter.  You cannot keep handcuffing your franchise to a player who cannot do the most important part of the job (making snap-decisions based on defensive looks) at the most important position.

Plus, the offensive line isn't half-bad. The perception that it's bad is *exactly* why you can't keep Fields.  Bagent came in and was sacked exactly once per game (5 in 5 games).  The *second* Fields was back in the lineup, we're right back to 20 sacks in 6 games.

Fields makes everyone around him look worse (except for DJ Moore for whatever reason).

[BigSlick]

I like this OLine if we get a Center honestly. I wouldn’t be upset if we ran into 2024 with Braxton Jones starting, though I think we absolutely could upgrade from there. 
 

in my dreams we draft a C a top OT and pick up another guard or tackle in free agency. 
 

I don’t think any rookie will get crushed behind this OLine, they’ve played pretty damn well from mid season on. What’s the problem?

[scarey]

The problem is I don't trust Braxton Jones and Nate Davis in pass protection, and Jenkins is injured too often. I want the Bears to actually invest legitimately in the offensive line.

[scarey]

2 hours ago, Hairyducked Idiot said:

Any scenario where Justin Fields is still the Bears QB is a non-starter.  You cannot keep handcuffing your franchise to a player who cannot do the most important part of the job (making snap-decisions based on defensive looks) at the most important position.

Plus, the offensive line isn't half-bad. The perception that it's bad is *exactly* why you can't keep Fields.  Bagent came in and was sacked exactly once per game (5 in 5 games).  The *second* Fields was back in the lineup, we're right back to 20 sacks in 6 games.

Fields makes everyone around him look worse (except for DJ Moore for whatever reason).

Do you think game plans had anything to do with this?

[Hairyducked Idiot]

1 hour ago, scarey said:

Do you think game plans had anything to do with this?

Yes.  But not in the way you're imagining.

The skill sets of the players drive the game plan.  Bagent is able to run a quick-hit offense that Fields cannot because Fields has an excruciatingly slow dropback and release to pair with his slow processor.

[BigbadB]

4 hours ago, Hairyducked Idiot said:

Yes.  But not in the way you're imagining.

The skill sets of the players drive the game plan.  Bagent is able to run a quick-hit offense that Fields cannot because Fields has an excruciatingly slow dropback and release to pair with his slow processor.

Exactly. And a team like Minnesota can make a guy like Fields look terrible because of this. They will game plan to make Fields look terrible with blitz packages out the ying yang. I never understood what Nate Davis' missing time was all about this season, but that probably won't be happening again this offseason, so he should be more prepared. Both OT's are still learning on the job and will be another year experienced. Teven will have the whole offseason to try to get healthy. Draft or sign a C that can meld well with this unit and I think it will be good enough to go into 2024 provided you have someone else at QB. The sacks and penalties will drop significantly with a QB who can get rid of the ball faster.

[BigbadB]

17 hours ago, SpongeWorthy said:

I don't really think he could be had but I think there's been enough smoke around Herbert and enough plausibility that the Chargers would want to build around Williams as a local college product to breathe some life (Herbert's really good but he's not Mr. Personality) to consider the possibility of the Bears trading for him

The dead cap hits for Murray and Herbert likely deter any trade considerations. You are way better off drafting your own franchise QB than trading for someone else's more often than not. The beauty of what the Bears are building right now is cheap talent at many of the skilled positions. Trading for a 40m+ QB will put them right back in the battle of managing cap space and watching the other talented guys walk because too much money is allocated to such a small percentage of the roster.

Part of Mahomes' problem right now is lack of talent in comparison to his "cheap" years. Well, guess who gobbled up all that cash that gets used for the better talent? And his salary will go up another 20m next year. They can still win because he is that special of a player. But, it does make it harder for him to do so. The cap pretty much ends dynasty discussion in the NFL, unless you get that rare player who can dominate regardless of the situation he is put in. You basically have a window of time, and that window can be extended if you manage your cash flow and talent levels or finding that diamond in the rough. That's where management is probably most valuable and why you need good management and coaching. 

New coaches, new QB and keep doing everything else they are doing to build the foundation is the path I think they should be on. Poles picked the wrong coaches, and now I think he'll be better for it. Get some guys with stronger track records and please do not change the damn defensive scheme back to 3-4 at this time. Does it have to be Caleb or Drake? Possibly not. I wouldn't be opposed to trading for a haul, especially with a team that will be bad again next year while still getting the guy Poles draft team covets the most. If Daniels can easily build some muscle and weight to be the guy, I'd be all about MHJ and Daniels or Daniels and Nabers or Odunze or Coleman with the first two picks after a trade down. Trade Fields and extend Moore and Johnson and fix the other holes on the roster.

Looking at WR Free Agents this coming offseason, I don't see a lot of promise there. Maybe some other decent names will get thrown in the mix due to cap restraints, but Tyler Boyd seems like the only one who might realistically be a target this offseason. So I think the Bears definitely need to draft a WR early this year, but they probably need a better veteran while they groom the rookie.

Sorry for the ramble. Several thoughts until I check back in tomorrow.

[CubinNY]

It's going to be very interesting to see what happens. I'm not plugged into Chicago media so I don't know if there is any indication of what Warren and Poles are thinking. But I wouldn't be the least bit surprised by anything. Keeping Fields and Fluss. Keeping Fields and Fluss, but getting a new OC. Keeping Fields getting rid of the coaching staff, which let's face it, has not been good. When you fire your DC and running back coach for non-football reasons, that is a huge red flag.

Other scenarios- Kepping Fields drafting Williams and keeping Fluss with a new OC. Drafting Williams and trading Fields, keeping Fluss and the OC. Completely flushing the toilet on all of them. 

I don't necessarily think the sentiments of NSBB on the Bears are shared by the folks at Halas Hall. 

[Brian707]

Poles is drafting Williams #1, I just don't see him trading back. He wants to get his QB.  As for the coaching staff, who knows what he is thinking. He has been dropping subtle hints but it would not surprise me if Flus and Getsy are both brought back.

[BigSlick]

The only thing that would outright surprise me is if they run the whole squad back: Fields, Flus and Getsy. I think Eberflus has likely saved his job (which I have major mixed feelings about), but I think it’s more likely than not that Fields is traded and more likely than not Getsy is gone. 
 

 

[WrigleyField 22]

12 hours ago, Hairyducked Idiot said:

Short, and while I think the evidence is good for his processing, you rarely *really* know if a QB prospect can handle NFL speed until you see them at NFL speed and he's not one of the very small handful of guys in my lifetime who you know for sure.

The list of generational QB prospects is Elway, Manning and Luck.  Williams isn't on that level, and if we're including him as "generational" we're going to need a *new* word for those guys and the point of generational was to separate those guys from the guys like Williams.

Someone on reddit suggested the term "presidential" for guys like Williams and I like it, as in "probably the best prospect you'll see in a four-year cycle."

Presidential just sounds corny, forced, and unnatural.

I'd just call them consensus guys, I.e. They were widely seen as consensus #1 picks with little debate as to their value. Caveat that I think you could have two consensus guys who just happen to fall in same year as I'd say is the case this year.  Of course sometimes you'll think a guy should be and isn't and falls

Consensus

Williams, Maye, Burrow, Lawrence, Stafford, Bradford, Newton(?),  Winston (to extent he wasn't it was character concerns only)... Maybe a few others 

 

Everyone else is some level of blue chip to very good to "wtf was that team thinking".

 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by WrigleyField 22

[CubinNY]

Who cares what label? It's an educated guess at best when the guy is drafted. Does anyone remember Todd Marinovich? JaMarcuss Russell? Whoever? We have to hope that if they choose to move on from Fields, they've done their homework on the kid all the way around. Williams scares me slightly, just based on the purported demands. It could be a lot of nothing, or it could be something. I'm not an expert on QB play transferring from NCAA to NFL and personal make up and neither is anyone else posting on here.

[BigSlick]

1. Devin Hester belongs in the Hall of Fame

2. I have completely excised the memory of Jared Allen ever being on the Bears. 

Edited December 28, 2023 by BigSlick

[Tryptamine]

16 hours ago, BigSlick said:

Why wouldn’t I want Fields But Better In All The Ways He’s Weak? Sounds can’t miss to me 

Because you see what a similar player in Bryce Young has done in the NFL. He's also not better in all ways to Fields. Fields is bigger, faster, throws a better deep ball. Williams has better pocket awareness and actually works the middle of the field with slants and crossing routes. They both hold the ball too long looking for the big play. I think the jury is still out on whether or not Williams is better at presnap reads than Fields. That is definitely not one of Justin's strong points, but he is slowly improving on that at least. 

[Hairyducked Idiot]

2 hours ago, Tryptamine said:

Because you see what a similar player in Bryce Young has done in the NFL. He's also not better in all ways to Fields. Fields is bigger, faster, throws a better deep ball. Williams has better pocket awareness and actually works the middle of the field with slants and crossing routes. They both hold the ball too long looking for the big play. I think the jury is still out on whether or not Williams is better at presnap reads than Fields. That is definitely not one of Justin's strong points, but he is slowly improving on that at least. 

Williams also has a significantly more accurate arm and quicker release.

[BigSlick]

IMO, There’s a world of difference between 5’10” and 6’1” in the NFL, and it’s much more significant than the jump from 6’1” to 6’4” is for someone like Fields. (We’ll find out what Williams’s actual height is at the Combine of course), Being that short as an NFL QB is close to disqualifying if you aren’t an otherworldly talent like Brees. 
 

I’m not 100% completely amazingly blown away by Caleb Williams, but it does feel like people are going out of their way to look for reasons to not draft him. He’s a better prospect than Fields was in 2021 and we were over the moon to have him. 

Edited December 28, 2023 by BigSlick

[scarey]

18 hours ago, Hairyducked Idiot said:

Any scenario where Justin Fields is still the Bears QB is a non-starter.  You cannot keep handcuffing your franchise to a player who cannot do the most important part of the job (making snap-decisions based on defensive looks) at the most important position.

Plus, the offensive line isn't half-bad. The perception that it's bad is *exactly* why you can't keep Fields.  Bagent came in and was sacked exactly once per game (5 in 5 games).  The *second* Fields was back in the lineup, we're right back to 20 sacks in 6 games.

Fields makes everyone around him look worse (except for DJ Moore for whatever reason).

Are you picking fights with Laurence Holmes on Twitter?

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by scarey

[Hairyducked Idiot]

27 minutes ago, scarey said:

Are you picking fights with Laurence Holmes on Twitter?

 

Picking fights is on brand for me, but caring about anything a WSCR person says or being on twitter are not.

[Tryptamine]

I'm leaning towards it meaning not much, but it's interesting that Caleb Williams' backup dropped 372 yards and 6 TDs on #15 Louisville. 

[minnesotacubsfan]

"SYSTEM QB"

 

[We Got The Whole 9]

Flacco getting off his couch and playing at a 5000/40 pace is the best storyline in years. Hoping the Browns win it all.