Russell Martin

[imb]

you can believe those two things and still not think its worth __ runs/wins/$.

 

you can but i think that's silly

 

turn that humor rating down to 75 please TARS

[SouthSideRyan]

I'D rather just stick with Castillo. Trading prospects and paying Montero 10M isn't much of an upgrade.

 

http://www.statcorner.com/CatcherReport.php

 

Looks like pairing Martin and Navarro should make for an interesting case study.

[jersey cubs fan]

you can believe those two things and still not think its worth __ runs/wins/$.

 

you can but i think that's silly

 

turn that humor rating down to 75 please TARS

 

Mr. Noodle = TARS, David is more of a CASE man.

[sneakypower]

really smart people in baseball believe in it..

 

Well, case closed then.

 

I have no problem deferring to the likes of the FO's who value this. Especially when they have much better and much more information available to them than we do.

 

Why did Theo and Jed stick with Castillo for three years?

recall that last year there was a lot of reported interest between our FO and Jarrod Saltalamacchia, who has never been considered to be a good receiver...it's actually fair to question if Theo & Jed really do put as much of an emphasis on it as some of the other teams have outwardly shown to (PIT, NYY, SD, TB, MIL, HOU)

 

also, to answer your question, Castillo ranks near the top in blocking pitches, so all his dramatic movements behind the plate do have some worth; this gets factored into his WAR on FG, while framing doesn't, so i'm of the opinion that paints too positive a picture of him

[Guest]

recall that last year there was a lot of reported interest between our FO and Jarrod Saltalamacchia, who has never been considered to be a good receiver...it's actually fair to question if Theo & Jed really do put as much of an emphasis on it as some of the other teams have outwardly shown to (PIT, NYY, SD, TB, MIL, HOU)

 

also, to answer your question, Castillo ranks near the top in blocking pitches, so all his dramatic movements behind the plate do have some worth; this gets factored into his WAR on FG, while framing doesn't, so i'm of the opinion that paints too positive a picture of him

 

fair point, but given how close the two are (taking into account how luck driven martin's offense was this year) otherwise, it's hard to imagine why they were willing to throw that much money at martin now that they're trying to win with castillo already on the roster for very cheap. it's not like they value leadership, work ethic, and the fact that he's a cool guy THAT much.

[sneakypower]

Beef had 412 PA and he somehow only scored 15 runs in which he didn't drive himself in

 

to find somebody with fewer, i made it all the way down to Michael McKenry's 14 runs in 183 PA

[chopsx9]

recall that last year there was a lot of reported interest between our FO and Jarrod Saltalamacchia, who has never been considered to be a good receiver...it's actually fair to question if Theo & Jed really do put as much of an emphasis on it as some of the other teams have outwardly shown to (PIT, NYY, SD, TB, MIL, HOU)

 

also, to answer your question, Castillo ranks near the top in blocking pitches, so all his dramatic movements behind the plate do have some worth; this gets factored into his WAR on FG, while framing doesn't, so i'm of the opinion that paints too positive a picture of him

 

fair point, but given how close the two are (taking into account how luck driven martin's offense was this year) otherwise, it's hard to imagine why they were willing to throw that much money at martin now that they're trying to win with castillo already on the roster for very cheap. it's not like they value leadership, work ethic, and the fact that he's a cool guy THAT much.

 

 

How "teachable" is framing? Strikes me as something that should be able to be taught to at least some extent. What's the thinking on that?

[jersey cubs fan]

Beef had 412 PA and he somehow only scored 15 runs in which he didn't drive himself in

 

to find somebody with fewer, i made it all the way down to Michael McKenry's 14 runs in 183 PA

 

Probably doesn't help that he mostly hit 6th and 7th and the Cubs 8 hole spot had the 2nd lowest production while their 7 spot production was better but due largely to Castillo's own 900 OPS hitting there. Most of the time he had really bad hitters coming up behind him.

[abuck1220]

recall that last year there was a lot of reported interest between our FO and Jarrod Saltalamacchia, who has never been considered to be a good receiver...it's actually fair to question if Theo & Jed really do put as much of an emphasis on it as some of the other teams have outwardly shown to (PIT, NYY, SD, TB, MIL, HOU)

 

yeah, all this talk about how much the cubs FO cares about pitch framing led me to searching for any comments they have made about it, and I couldn't find any.

[Elrhino]

If Maddon has any say, we will be from here on out.

[atcfootball]

80M+ for 5 years w the blue jays. Wanted to see him behind the dish on the northside, but not for the $/yrs they gave him. Good no go by the FO I think, but wonder the impact this will have, if any, on pitching.

[LeftCoastCubFan]

Saved by Blue Jays

[sweetpeteman]

With Martin gone, it's not necessarily Castillo v. X, it's Castillo v. Castillo + X, especially if X is left handed like Montero(or Avila or Grandal).

I'm stuck on an airplane right now, but didn't I post stats the other day that show montero not being a huge upgrade offensively, even versus righties? At least using his last two years worth of results I believe that to be true.

 

Yes, if you look at single years for either Castillo or Montero you can get them not far apart against RHP. Validity of that argument aside, it misses the point a bit, because you aren't talking about a strict platoon. If anything it's a good thing because Castillo would still get PAs against RHP and him being acceptable against them is a good thing. We're not talking about emulating the 2014 A's at the position.

 

Montero is slightly better against righties than Castillo, but Castillo crushes lefties:

 

AVG/OBP/SLG/OPS/wRC+

Montero
Castillo

2011 - 2014:

vs R

.277	.370	.437	.806	118 

.239	.307	.369	.676	86


vs L

.216	.284	.325	.609	65

.308	.375	.476	.850	136


2013 & 2014

vs R

.250	.344	.384	.728	99

.249	.317	.379	.696	93


vs L

.194	.253	.275	.528	43

.275	.343	.440	.783	118



2014:

vs. R:

.256	.348	.386	.735	100

.216	.279	.352	.631	76

vs L

.198	.252	.311	.563	53

.301	.350	.505	.855	139

 

 

 

Grandal, since he's been brought up:

 

Career:

vs R:

.252	.356	.424	.780	125

vs L:

.225	.335	.379	.714	104


2014:

vs R:

.241	.329	.452	.781	124

vs L:

.162	.323	.189	.512	62

 

 

 

If you trade for Montero, you need to keep Castillo and platoon them. Maybe let Castillo get some times against righties, but Montero against lefties is really, really bad. The problem is that Arizona doesn't have a replacement starting catcher and would probably want Castillo back.

 

If you can get Grandal, that's probably the best bet, since he would be about the same or better against righties, and probably acceptable against lefties. Again, if you can keep Castillo that would be good for against lefties, but Grandal could bounce back against them (.240 BABIP against lefties last year vs .286 vs righties)

[Deeg]

Fangraphs on the contract:

 

Based on market rates, for $82 million, the Jays are paying Martin to be worth something on the order of 10 – 11 wins. Historically, for catchers between the ages of 29 – 31, Martin’s been around the 85th percentile. For those catchers over the next five years, through age 36, the 85th percentile has been worth about 10 – 11 wins. It’s simple, but it works. If you prefer something Martin-specific, let’s begin with his 3.8-WAR projection for next season. Dock him six-tenths of a win each year, and in the end he’d have been worth 13 wins. Dock him 0.75 wins each year, and in the end he’d have been worth 11.5 wins. Pitch-framing value isn’t included, here. It appears the Jays have committed to a reasonable contract. No reason to think this is a huge mistake; no reason to think this is a huge awesome deal for the team. It falls within 10% or so of a good idea for both sides, and that’s the most that can be said about that.

[Hairyducked Idiot]

Oh man, Fangraphs came up with some never-before-used tweak to their methodology that claims $/WAR predicted the exact contract of a recent signee?

 

[Tangled Up in Plaid]

jesus h

[TruffleShuffle]

did the blue jays get a new tv deal or something? their payroll this year was $55m more than it was in 2012, and next year it will be even higher since they've committed almost $120m to just 10 players.

[SouthSideRyan]

did the blue jays get a new tv deal or something? their payroll this year was $55m more than it was in 2012, and next year it will be even higher since they've committed almost $120m to just 10 players.

 

They own their TV network

[Cubswin11]

A quick google search gave me this blurb from 2012

 

But Toronto is owned by $14 billion-in-sales Rogers Communications, which also owns sports channels that pump through Blue Jays games as well as those of its other two teams, the NBA’s Raptors and NHL’s Maple Leafs. The company’s strategy of using sports programming to boost profits has been paying off and shares of Rogers have been outperforming the market recently. On top of the increase in carrier fees Rogers can command from its sports programming, last year Rogers Sportsnet paid the Blue Jays a rights fee of $36 million

[Guest]

really smart people in baseball believe in it..

 

Well, case closed then.

 

I have no problem deferring to the likes of the FO's who value this. Especially when they have much better and much more information available to them than we do.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZCffFmWpBA

[BrockLanders]

A quick google search gave me this blurb from 2012

 

But Toronto is owned by $14 billion-in-sales Rogers Communications, which also owns sports channels that pump through Blue Jays games as well as those of its other two teams, the NBA’s Raptors and NHL’s Maple Leafs. The company’s strategy of using sports programming to boost profits has been paying off and shares of Rogers have been outperforming the market recently. On top of the increase in carrier fees Rogers can command from its sports programming, last year Rogers Sportsnet paid the Blue Jays a rights fee of $36 million

 

Rogers is an absurdly powerful company. Not only does their sports channels have the Jays games, they recently acquired exclusive rights to essentially all NHL games in Canada. They own the Jays outright. They own half of MLSE in a weird partnership with their main competitor, Bell. MLSE owns the Leafs, Raptors and TFC.

 

The Jays have more financial resources than just about anyone. Luckily, since it's run by a corporation, they still care more about profits than titles.

[UMFan83]

Here's the "Cubs tried super hard but were barely outbid by another team" article for Martin.

 

Feel free to help Rogers write his next article and treat this like a mad libs and replace all instances of Martin with Lester and Blue Jays with Cardinals/Red Sox/Braves/Mystery Team A/Mystery Team B, just in case.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/cubs/post/_/id/28140/inside-the-pursuit-of-russell-martin

 

CHICAGO -- Though the Chicago Cubs lost out on their bid for free-agent catcher Russell Martin early last week, it doesn’t mean they weren’t in the hunt until the end. Martin’s Chicago-based agent, Matt Colleran, says it was neck-and-neck between the Cubs and the team Martin eventually signed with, the Toronto Blue Jays.

 

"There were times throughout the process where it was Toronto and the Cubs, 1 and 2," Colleran recalled this past weekend. "They probably flipped spots in that process. One day the Cubs [were] going a little ahead, and the next Toronto was ahead. When we got into the [last] weekend the dollars started to come into play, and Toronto was just super aggressive with their approach."

 

Colleran actually indicated the Blue Jays were the most aggressive team from the start of free agency, as he received a call from them at "9:01 a.m. on the very first day." But the Cubs were nearly as aggressive, and their face-to-face meeting couldn't have gone better, according to the agent.

 

"Those guys are incredibly professional," Colleran said of the Cubs' front office. "The presentation was professional and on point … Russ came away super impressed."

 

The presentation highlighted the Cubs' future and featured both current and former players, but at the end of the day the Blue Jays simply wouldn't be denied. Last Sunday morning is when Toronto's general manager Alex Anthopoulos basically told Colleran the Blue Jays were getting his client one way or another.

 

"He flat-out said that [in the] morning," Colleran stated. "He said it in a way that he was determined and that he was going to be in it until the end. He was aggressive throughout the entire process, so that statement didn't surprise me."

 

By that evening, Martin had agreed to a 5-year, $82 million deal. The price tag was simply too steep for the Cubs, who were of the mindset that a four-year deal was their limit. At some point in the process, it became clear to Colleran that Martin's former team, the Pittsburgh Pirates, couldn't afford to have him back, and GM Neal Huntington intimated as much in interviews late in the final week before his former catcher signed. But just days before the agreement with the Blue Jays, the Cubs sounded like a team that had hopes of landing him -- without mentioning Martin by name -- while discussing the development of 2014 first-round pick, Kyle Schwarber.

 

"Catchers take a little bit longer to develop in the minor leagues, and when they break in, they break in gradually and it's important for them to have good mentors," Cubs president of baseball operations Theo Epstein said at the general manager meetings in Arizona. "He could very much be in our plans, and it would still make sense to sign a catcher if it's the right catcher out there."

 

Martin was that right guy, but not at Brian McCann-type money. McCann's 5-year contract for $85 million with the New York Yankees last offseason was the deal Martin's camp used for comparison, according to Colleran. He was the only comparable catcher who actually made it to free agency, though McCann is one year younger.

 

"We wanted to get close," Colleran said.

 

And the Blue Jays were a willing participant. Colleran indicated having the best free-agent catcher is a little different from other positions. It's why a deal was able to get done so early in the offseason.

 

"I sensed that things were going to move because each team involved in it was not waiting for something else to happen to get to Russell," Colleran explained.

 

In other words, going after Martin wasn't contingent on anything else the Cubs were doing. They wanted him, as did the Los Angeles Dodgers and Pirates, but only the Blue Jays "stepped up to the plate."

 

"They took the lead in everything," Colleran said.

 

And what if the offers by the Cubs and Blue Jays were equal?

 

"He never had to answer the question because of where it [the money] went," Colleran said

[Guest]

So Russell Martin has been really [expletive] good this year

 

2.9 fWAR through 55 games.

 

.285/.369/.523 triple slash

[Bryants Disco Ball]

So Russell Martin has been really [expletive] good this year

 

2.9 fWAR through 55 games.

 

.285/.369/.523 triple slash

 

Was just looking at that yesterday, Then I saw that he's making 20 million four seasons from now, and I was happy we just traded for Montero. But, yeah, he's going off so far.

[rawaction]

So Russell Martin has been really [expletive] good this year

 

2.9 fWAR through 55 games.

 

.285/.369/.523 triple slash

 

Was just looking at that yesterday, Then I saw that he's making 20 million four seasons from now, and I was happy we just traded for Montero. But, yeah, he's going off so far.

 

Yeah, never a question he was going to be good this year. He's probably going to be good next year. But after that is what I was worried about. I'd take good-good-mediocre-below avg for 4 years at his AAV. But good-good-mediocre-below avg- bad at his AAV was scary, especially since the "good" years weren't guaranteed to be even this good. And the bad have really bad potential from an everyday catcher.