Dale Sveum to re arrange the deck chairs

[Guest]

Dejesus' OBP has consistently gone done in each full season

 

DeJesus OBP in 2004: .360

DeJesus OBP in 2012: .360

 

And the average AL OBP in 2004 was 20 points higher than it was in the NL this year.

 

But yeah, consistently gone down.

[XZero771679666304]

Thank you to everyone, I had no clue what I was going to see this thread morph into. Best case scenario.

 

I seriously hope they don't lock this and the Ian Stewart threads. It's just mind-blowing incredible.

 

Also... who is this Neely guy? It looks like he joined here a long time ago, but I don't remember him being on here since I've joined (in 2009 although I've been reading this site since 2007)... until now.

 

Did someone FDB??

 

He used to post more consistently years ago. It wasn't until this outburst that I realized it had been so long. He's definitely not da bum.

[DiamondMind]

neely you are my new favorite person. save this forum.

[Yeti]

=D>

[Little Slide Rooter]

I'm starting to think troll on this one.

 

I'm starting to think high school sociology project. Find a message board and see how many people you can goad into continuing to argue no matter how out there you get. The Criteriaseen some wild posters, but none that have been this out there for so long.

-how many responses to you get trying to rationalize with you

-how many posters take you seriously

-how many simply flame you

-how long before the powers that be ban you from the board.

-will it start a Free Neely campaign?

 

Or maybe the screen name was started by a composite of 10-12 year old Cardinals or White Sox fans just to [expletive] with us.

[Ding Dong Johnson]

by the way Ryun*, if you want to be prickish- D-E-W-I-T-T is wrong. It's Dewitt. Only caps on the first letter

Wrong yet again. Caps on the W as well, chief.

[jersey cubs fan]

When I talked about Barney eventually becoming the next Theriot in the eyes of some I never realized it would happen this quickly.

[Little Slide Rooter]

When I talked about Barney eventually becoming the next Theriot in the eyes of some I never realized it would happen this quickly.

 

He shouldn't be. With utility middle infield types, as long as they're cheap and not completely hapless with the bat there's no harm in keeping them around. Also, in Barney's case as long as he's hitting well for now may as well let him play out the hot streak. I understand the comparisons as far as offense goes, but the obvious difference is the fact that Barney is a great defensive player, despite the fact that he makes some mistakes and Theriot was a bad defensive player.

[jersey cubs fan]

When I talked about Barney eventually becoming the next Theriot in the eyes of some I never realized it would happen this quickly.

 

He shouldn't be. With utility middle infield types, as long as they're cheap and not completely hapless with the bat there's no harm in keeping them around. Also, in Barney's case as long as he's hitting well for now may as well let him play out the hot streak. I understand the comparisons as far as offense goes, but the obvious difference is the fact that Barney is a great defensive player, despite the fact that he makes some mistakes and Theriot was a bad defensive player.

 

Not as much comparisons of their numbers as how they will be hailed by some in similar ways.

[neely crenshaw]

Dejesus' OBP has consistently gone done in each full season

 

DeJesus OBP in 2004: .360

DeJesus OBP in 2012: .360

 

And the average AL OBP in 2004 was 20 points higher than it was in the NL this year.

 

But yeah, consistently gone down.

 

that's 8 years ago.

that's 40 games in 2012

in every FULL season since 2006 his ob% has gone down save for his one unexplained year, where he hit over .300 for the only time, he only hit .300 once in a full season in the minors. so that tells me it's rare. I use full season because it's not accurate to use obp stats, or ops, or slg over short stints simply because 1 small streak changes them greatly.

so in your posted stat line, no they haven't gone down.

but in reality

2006 .364

2007 .351

2008 his one big year

2009 .347

2010 90 games played

2011 .323

what do you call that?

I call that going down each year. yes, he had 1 spike, but that is a downward trend.

If you can guarantee me that there will be no fall off, and he will have a .360 ob% for the year, you are dead on. However you can't honestly do that. We can hope he does that, but we can say he will for sure, especially when he hasn't had a .360+ obp since 2008 4 SEASONS AGO!

 

disagreeing with you is not being a troll. disagreeing with your liberal application of stats like showing 2004 stats, and stats for 40 games this year is not being a troll. defending personal attacks with data is not something someone should be banned for.

[jersey cubs fan]

that's 8 years ago.

that's 40 games in 2012

in every FULL season since 2006 his ob% has gone down save for his one unexplained year, where he hit over .300 for the only time, he only hit .300 once in a full season in the minors. so that tells me it's rare. I use full season because it's not accurate to use obp stats, or ops, or slg over short stints simply because 1 small streak changes them greatly.

so in your posted stat line, no they haven't gone down.

but in reality

2006 .364

2007 .351

2008 his one big year

2009 .347

2010 90 games played

2011 .323

what do you call that?

I call that going down each year. yes, he had 1 spike, but that is a downward trend.

If you can guarantee me that there will be no fall off, and he will have a .360 ob% for the year, you are dead on. However you can't honestly do that. We can hope he does that, but we can say he will for sure, especially when he hasn't had a .360+ obp since 2008 4 SEASONS AGO!

 

disagreeing with you is not being a troll. disagreeing with your liberal application of stats like showing 2004 stats, and stats for 40 games this year is not being a troll. defending personal attacks with data is not something someone should be banned for.

 

You are raping the data.

[Banedon]

Forget the stats for a moment, Neely. Tell me why it matters for Tony Campana or Darwin Barney's development that they bat leadoff? How will that help them become better ballplayers? You've already admitted the Cubs aren't going anywhere, so you aren't arguing this because you think the Cubs will win more games. So how will moving one of these guys to the leadoff spot help them moving forward?

[neely crenshaw]

As for Barney, someone please just point out a negative.

 

does he get in trouble off the field?

does he play bad defense?

is he too old, and reached his peak?

is he slow?

can he not hit at all?

is he a clubhouse problem?

is there no chance that at 26 and in his 2nd year in the majors he has some growth possible? since he "only" had an OB% of .313 in his rookie year, there is no chance he raises that say 20 points?

does he make too much money, or too much money for his production?

 

how about this?

at 26 in his 2nd year, with a 2011 stat line of .276 .313ob% .666 ops is more or less likely that his stats will go up over this year and next. while a 32 year in his 10th time around vs major league pitching with a 2011 stat line of .240 .323 and .698 might go down or at least not improve?

Am I off on common sense here? a younger, less experienced player has a better chance at improving over the next few seasons than a 10 year vet who is 32? is that really a crazy thought?

 

you guys have such love for DeJesus and want to point out his OB% as such a huge difference between the two. it's currently 45 points. Sounds huge. But then you get upset and call me a toddler and a troll when I factually point out that over 150 at bats, that's getting on base 5 times more.

not even thinking about possible upswing or downturn of each line, or the fact that Barney has more of chance to improve, while Dejesus is a finished product. over 41 games getting on base 5 more times equals 1.25 times more often over every 10 games.

So you basically dismiss Barney for life because DeJesus is getting on base once more every 30 at bats. ONE TIME IN 30 AT BATS.

yes, that is a mind boggling difference.

Edited May 22, 2012 by neely crenshaw

[Hendrys Ghost]

http://www.stewarttalent.com/media/fin/Kim_DeJesus-35713.jpg

 

"My husband gets on base".

[Tracer Bullet]

No one in this thread has crazy love for dejesus.

 

And you've ignored several direct questions about the need to bat barney first. Are you going to respond?

[jersey cubs fan]

is he play bad defense?

 

no jar jar, he does not

[bukie]

DeJesus is much better at getting on base. Campana is better at running around them once he's on. Barney is better at preventing the opponent from getting on base with his defense. Cardenas make the most solid contact.

 

If they were somehow melded into one super player with all the benefits of each and none of the drawbacks, I'd be all for leading off with 25 year old phenom Darian CampJesus, but such a player doesn't exist on the roster. In the mean time, they all play different positions, and since DeJesus's best asset is most beneficial at the top of the order and isn't keeping anyone else from playing, he's best served to just stay there.

[neely crenshaw]

Forget the stats for a moment, Neely. Tell me why it matters for Tony Campana or Darwin Barney's development that they bat leadoff? How will that help them become better ballplayers? You've already admitted the Cubs aren't going anywhere, so you aren't arguing this because you think the Cubs will win more games. So how will moving one of these guys to the leadoff spot help them moving forward?

 

I don't think Barney should bat lead off. I do wonder why he was jettisoned to 8th when his stats don't actually deserve it. If he is on a strong team, then yes, 8th would be a spot for him. I was not actually arguing the point, but started off by wondering why some others were sent to that spot.

As for Campana, why not find out if he is a lead off guy? If he can produce his stat line all year which is the same as dejesus plus potential league leading steal totals, it would certainly add to an offense that has 19 homers outside of Lahair. If he is on, and steals second-which he doing about 40% of the time he is on first, that means that nearly over 30% of his at bats he would be on second, for say Dejesus batting 2nd, Castro and Lahair. Does that make sense? I don't know if he can keep it up after pitchers and defenses see him a few times, but why not find out.

 

DeJesus may be the best option, but if we are working toward the future is Dejesus going to be that guy at 35 in 2014? will he be here? Other than the salary, it's like pena last year. Yes, he was the best we had at 1b, but if you are going to have the 2nd worst record in the national league does it make more sense to have played Colvin there all year, through thick and thin to find if he was going to be a player. I loved Pena, but would we be better off losing 10 more games and knowing if Colvin, and now it may have nice to see LaHair- then we would have a better idea if his stats will be real, or just a blip on the radar.

I can't see why posters think it's crazy, in a year where we are 15-26, worst record in the NL, with pretty much nothing on the horizon that says we will greatly improve anytime this season, we make some moves to get better or at least evaluate things for next year.

just don't see why that is such an attackable position, or why it warrants having my baseball knowledge, my identity or ideals ridiculed or questioned.

[neely crenshaw]

is he play bad defense?

 

no jar jar, he does not

 

really? the best you can do is ridicule someone's typing?

[jersey cubs fan]

is he play bad defense?

 

no jar jar, he does not

 

really? the best you can do is ridicule someone's typing?

 

I answered the question. He does not play bad defense. There are no negatives that can be pointed out.

[jersey cubs fan]

I don't think Barney should bat lead off. I do wonder why he was jettisoned to 8th when his stats don't actually deserve it.

 

Batting order doesn't really matter. The fact that he's playing just about every day kind of negates the notion that he's been "jettisoned" in any way shape or form.

[neely crenshaw]

Dejesus' OBP has consistently gone done in each full season

 

DeJesus OBP in 2004: .360

DeJesus OBP in 2012: .360

 

And the average AL OBP in 2004 was 20 points higher than it was in the NL this year.

 

But yeah, consistently gone down.

 

by the way soccer, that would mean that an OB% of 360 in 2004 would be the equivilent of .340 this year. Thanks for the help it shows even more for my point that his 40 game split of .360 will likely go down this year.

[neely crenshaw]

No one in this thread has crazy love for dejesus.

 

And you've ignored several direct questions about the need to bat barney first. Are you going to respond?

 

 

actually I have answered it pretty much everytime. I have never once said he should bat lead off. I mentioned Campana might be worth a look for future reference to see if he can be that guy.

[jersey cubs fan]

No one in this thread has crazy love for dejesus.

 

And you've ignored several direct questions about the need to bat barney first. Are you going to respond?

 

 

actually I have answered it pretty much everytime. I have never once said he should bat lead off. I mentioned Campana might be worth a look for future reference to see if he can be that guy.

 

So what exactly is it that you want to see done with Barney right now? You want him batting where? And for what reason?

[treebird]

Dejesus' OBP has consistently gone done in each full season

 

DeJesus OBP in 2004: .360

DeJesus OBP in 2012: .360

 

And the average AL OBP in 2004 was 20 points higher than it was in the NL this year.

 

But yeah, consistently gone down.

 

by the way soccer, that would mean that an OB% of 360 in 2004 would be the equivilent of .340 this year. Thanks for the help it shows even more for my point that his 40 game split of .360 will likely go down this year.

 

ohhhhhhh man do i love this post